Dole Vs. Crime

Jonny Blaze

So I have been wondering about all of the usual arguments people seem to make about dole recipients, particularly how regular working taxpayers resent dole recipients for getting money for nothing.

It seems to me that social welfare has the aim of reducing crime and providing a safer and more secure society by alleviating one of the most important contributing factors to crime (i.e. poverty) within the population.

Would it be reasonable to assume that if there were no social welfare payments that crime would increase? Burglaries, muggings, car-theft, people turning to selling drugs or prostitution etc.

Now (full disclosure) I have been unemployed since 2008 and after spending about 9 months looking for work I decided to pursue education as a means of improving my future prospects.

So I earned a degree in computer science which took four years and through which I was in receipt of social welfare payments in the form of the back to education allowance which enabled me to do this.

Now, I have calculated roughly how much the state has paid for me over the last five years and it amounts to approximately €50-55,000 euros. Which I admit feels like a lot.

But when I contrast that to the following information from the Irish Penal Reform Trust (http://www.iprt.ie/prison-facts-2) regarding the expenditure on keeping prisoners incarcerated per year:

The average cost of imprisonment per prisoner was €65,404 in 2012, not including education spend; it was €65,359in 2011; €70,513 in 2010; €77,222 in 2009.

It seems to me that social welfare is definitely something that gets more negativity from regular working taxpayers than is perhaps warranted?

Would the die hard anti-dolers out there be prepared to do away with the dole but face an increase in crime as well as increase on tax expenditure in dealing with the results of such crime?

A_Sober_Paddy

Gets Popcorn:pac:

893bet

Jonny Blaze wrote: »

Now (full disclosure) I have been unemployed since 2008

Go get a job you thief.

professore

I think people mean the kind of people who have no intention of ever working, not someone like you. You are an example of how social welfare is meant to be used.

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy

Don't feel bad OP. When you do start working, and you will because IT is doing well, you'll pay a lot more than 60k back in your lifetime.

Jonny Blaze

professore wrote: »

I think people mean the kind of people who have no intention of ever working, not someone like you. You are an example of how social welfare is meant to be used.

Aw! Thanks!

It's not something I feel good about having to do and wasn't easy but I do understand that taxpayers must be pretty pissed off with dole recipients in general.

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy

Jonny Blaze wrote: »

Aw! Thanks!

It's not something I feel good about having to do and wasn't easy but I do understand that taxpayers must be pretty pissed off with dole recipients in general.

I'm one, and I'm not.

Also, why do you care? Life's too short to worry about everyone else's opinions.

Jonny Blaze

Duracell Bunny wrote: »

I'm one, and I'm not.

Also, why do you care? Life's too short to worry about everyone else's opinions.

Im just curious really!

kneemos

Don't hear taxpayers complaining when they get a new school or hospital built or when their road gets repaired,all
other people's money.

OP you are not the type of social welfare recipient that people complain about( except for the odd nut who has a bee in their bonnet about back to education )

It is not as simple as crime v welfare its much more complex than that.

D1stant

Jonny Blaze wrote: »

Now, I have calculated roughly how much the state has paid for me over the last five years and it amounts to approximately €50-55,000 euros. Which I admit feels like a lot.

But when I contrast that to the following information from the Irish Penal Reform Trust (http://www.iprt.ie/prison-facts-2) regarding the expenditure on keeping prisoners incarcerated per year:

That means you saved the state 272,000 over a 5 year period by not being banged up. Kudos to you and everyone else on the dole!




* Warning: Female sales shopping logic applied in above calculation

Pug160

I think some people view bone-idleness as one of the greatest sins of all. There is a certain amount of hostility for people such as bankers, but with bankers, I think people kind of say to themselves, well at least they've shown that they have ambition and drive, even though what they're doing is legal theft in some cases, and definitely exploitation. But of course, there are various reasons why people are on the dole.

shopaholic01

It took 12 posts before the bankers were mentioned, we're getting complacent.

The Diabolical Monocle

kneemos wrote: »

Don't hear taxpayers complaining when they get a new school or hospital built or when their road gets repaired,all
other people's money.

mmmm now Im not taking sides but that seems a bit flawed.

Holsten

If there was no dole crime would sky rocket.

People will not starve and if they can't or won't get work they'll do whatever to get money.

Jonny Blaze

mariaalice wrote: »

OP you are not the type of social welfare recipient that people complain about( except for the odd nut who has a bee in their bonnet about back to education )

It is not as simple as crime v welfare its much more complex than that.

No i know it isn't really, but i just think some people kind of forget or don't really know why social welfare is important.

youtube!

Pug160 wrote: »

I think some people view bone-idleness as one of the greatest sins of all. There is a certain amount of hostility for people such as bankers, but with bankers, I think people kind of say to themselves, well at least they've shown that they have ambition and drive, even though what they're doing is legal theft in some cases, and definitely exploitation. But of course, there are various reasons why people are on the dole.

Agree with this post wholeheartedly , even to the point of I would rather see a person working while claiming as opposed to just sittin on their arses and doing nothing, at least person A in this scenario is showing a bit of drive wheras Person B is a lazy git and I bloody hate that!

Gone Drinking

If only it was the other way around, if only it was cheaper to put a person in prison than have them on the dole..

We could put everyone on the dole in prison, so getting a job meant getting out. What an incentive!*

*don't take this seriously

Jonny Blaze

D1stant wrote: »

That means you saved the state 272,000 over a 5 year period by not being banged up. Kudos to you and everyone else on the dole!




* Warning: Female sales shopping logic applied in above calculation

Thanks!

Potatoeman

The money to pay for our current expenditure is being borrowed. So we will need to make cuts or tax increases.

When you start taking money out of people pockets you will always get more people complaining. That said I do believe payments should decrease over time to encourage people to work and also not punish people who are trying to get off welfare.

Penny Tration

Duracell Bunny wrote: »

I'm one, and I'm not.

Also, why do you care? Life's too short to worry about everyone else's opinions.

I'm also one, and not annoyed in the slightest. It's good to know if I lose my job, I have a welfare payment to help me get back on my feet.

Hootanany

Most crime is commited by people on the dole.

Tigerandahalf

At the moment there just isn't enough jobs out there. Add to that the cost of renting, commuting and childcare and you see a group of people who are just trapped unless the salary from the job is high enough.
You have a lot of graduates in Ireland today who will never earn a graduate wage or progress in that direction. Colleges have churned out graduates and many of these people now want a certain type of job to fit their qualification.
The dole for young people is small at around 100 eur. I am quite surprised that we have not had more social unrest. People seem very docile about the whole thing.
This country is still very safe. You can walk down most streets without any issue. Food is still very cheap in this country. So is booze so not much to protest about. If we were to see significant food price increases it would be a different story.

Jonny Blaze

Hootanany wrote: »

Most crime is commited by people on the dole.

I wouldn't be at all surprised at that, however it isn't much of a leap to think that these people are in some cases still motivated primarily by being closer to poverty.

Hootanany

They spend all their money on beer and fags and go on the rob for their Holibobs.

goose2005

Pug160 wrote: »

I think some people view bone-idleness as one of the greatest sins of all. There is a certain amount of hostility for people such as bankers, but with bankers, I think people kind of say to themselves, well at least they've shown that they have ambition and drive, even though what they're doing is legal theft in some cases, and definitely exploitation. But of course, there are various reasons why people are on the dole.

Which is a bit odd. Even the most useless, idle scrounger is only a burden on society for maybe €10k a year, which isn't much. And arguably they perform a civic function by setting an example - "better really try for a job or you'll end up like your cousin Des who hasn't worked in 20 years and eats Calvita without taking the plastic off.

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy

Hootanany wrote: »

Most crime is commited by people on the dole.

Dya think so?

Push Pop

You see the evidence of what scum are like even when they get the dole. If we did cut it off from them crime would skyrocket of course. We would see a huge rise in gated communities and gun ownership. I bet those two guys who attached the Brazilian student at the weekend will be dole lifers.
(Please note I am referring to the minority of welfare recipients who ruin it for all)

Hootanany

Duracell Bunny wrote: »

Dya think so?

I know so.

BillyMitchel

How does one break down the cost of a prisoner per-year?

Serious question!

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy

Hootanany wrote: »

I know so.

How can you be so sure?

If I was a career criminal and prolific at it, I wouldn't claim the dole because I'd have to provide a fixed address, and be at a certain place at a certain time.

So have you any genuine sources, or are you just spouting bs?

gw80

Hootanany wrote: »

Most crime is commited by people on the dole.

Yea but the biggest crimes are commited by people in suits:cool:

wexie

Jonny Blaze wrote: »

But when I contrast that to the following information from the Irish Penal Reform Trust (http://www.iprt.ie/prison-facts-2) regarding the expenditure on keeping prisoners incarcerated per year:

The average cost of imprisonment per prisoner was €65,404 in 2012, not including education spend; it was €65,359in 2011;

Does that include dole they get while incarcerated?

wexie

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Food is still very cheap in this country. So is booze....

What? Compared to where?

Hootanany

BillyMitchel wrote: »

How does one break down the cost of a prisoner per-year?

Serious question!

Prison warders overtime.

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy

wexie wrote: »

Does that include dole they get while incarcerated?

They don't receive that. They get a daily allowance, but it's a fraction of their weekly sw payment.

Hootanany

Duracell Bunny wrote: »

How can you be so sure?

If I was a career criminal and prolific at it, I wouldn't claim the dole because I'd have to provide a fixed address, and be at a certain place at a certain time.

So have you any genuine sources, or are you just spouting bs?

Do you not read the papers "Unemployed Father of 1" add numbers where applicable.

Potatoeman

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

At the moment there just isn't enough jobs out there. Add to that the cost of renting, commuting and childcare and you see a group of people who are just trapped unless the salary from the job is high enough.
You have a lot of graduates in Ireland today who will never earn a graduate wage or progress in that direction. Colleges have churned out graduates and many of these people now want a certain type of job to fit their qualification.
The dole for young people is small at around 100 eur. I am quite surprised that we have not had more social unrest. People seem very docile about the whole thing.
This country is still very safe. You can walk down most streets without any issue. Food is still very cheap in this country. So is booze so not much to protest about. If we were to see significant food price increases it would be a different story.

Young people dont vote. This is why oaps will keep medicle cards and pensions no matter what their income level is, while dole payments for young people are cut.

wexie

Duracell Bunny wrote: »

They don't receive that. They get a daily allowance, but it's a fraction of their weekly sw payment.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/jail-scam-prisoners-claiming-welfare-while-behind-bars-26744506.html

they shouldn't receive it, doesn't mean they don't though....
(Although to be fair it think the blame for that lies with the depts of social protection and justice.)

Turtyturd

BillyMitchel wrote: »

How does one break down the cost of a prisoner per-year?

Serious question!

You get the total costs of running a prison for a year and divide it by the number of prisoners.

The reality is that there is no major saving on the costs of an individual being in or out of prison, because if they are not in prison someone else will be. The only real savings come from stuff like dental/doctor visits which vary by person.

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy

Hootanany wrote: »

Do you not read the papers "Unemployed Father of 1" add numbers where applicable.

Here we feckin go

Pingi

I just dont like those who claim the dole and look down on other peoples jobs minimum wage/service industry etc, especially when they are not qualified or experienced themselfs. Those in need of help or those who are bone lazy and honest dont bother me.

Jonny Blaze

wexie wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/jail-scam-prisoners-claiming-welfare-while-behind-bars-26744506.html

they shouldn't receive it, doesn't mean they don't though....
(Although to be fair it think the blame for that lies with the depts of social protection and justice.)

That's fairly shocking in fairness!

Toby Take a Bow

Hootanany wrote: »

Do you not read the papers "Unemployed Father of 1" add numbers where applicable.

How to determine income and its effect on crime? Occasional reading of articles in newspapers and 'add numbers where applicable'. I think it's safe to say that now the National Statistics Office is redundant.

taytothief

Some people just like to steal stuff...

Hootanany

Toby Take a Bow wrote: »

How to determine income and its effect on crime? Occasional reading of articles in newspapers and 'add numbers where applicable'. I think it's safe to say that now the National Statistics Office is redundant.

WHAAA

Mint Aero

I don't give a f*ck about other people. Couldn't give a sh*t if they got 9 million a year on the dole. I earn my crust and that's all that matters to me. I love me. Me me me me.

The Diabolical Monocle

gw80 wrote: »

Yea but the biggest crimes are commited by people in suits:cool:

People whos names we're not allowed to know.

wexie

Jonny Blaze wrote: »

That's fairly shocking in fairness!

Which bit though? The fact prisoners have been receiving dole while locked up or the fact that the responsibility to notify the department of social protection lies with the prisoners themselves? Like the turkeys voting for Christmas....

THOUSANDS of prisoners have been illegally claiming millions of euro in social welfare because their benefits are not automatically cut off when they are sent to jail.

It is up to prisoners to notify the department when they are sent to prison because it is illegal for them to claim welfare

Hootanany

wexie wrote: »

Which bit though? The fact prisoners have been receiving dole while locked up or the fact that the responsibility to notify the department of social protection lies with the prisoners themselves? Like the turkeys voting for Christmas....

Un effing real i suppose the unions would look for a extra payment for the PS TO IMPLEMENT common sense.

kowloon

Can I not do drive by shootings while I'm out looking for work?! People these days can't multitask.