Dole Vs. Crime

Jonny Blaze · 21-03-2014 05:23PM #1

So I have been wondering about all of the usual arguments people seem to make about dole recipients, particularly how regular working taxpayers resent dole recipients for getting money for nothing.

It seems to me that social welfare has the aim of reducing crime and providing a safer and more secure society by alleviating one of the most important contributing factors to crime (i.e. poverty) within the population.

Would it be reasonable to assume that if there were no social welfare payments that crime would increase? Burglaries, muggings, car-theft, people turning to selling drugs or prostitution etc.

Now (full disclosure) I have been unemployed since 2008 and after spending about 9 months looking for work I decided to pursue education as a means of improving my future prospects.

So I earned a degree in computer science which took four years and through which I was in receipt of social welfare payments in the form of the back to education allowance which enabled me to do this.

Now, I have calculated roughly how much the state has paid for me over the last five years and it amounts to approximately €50-55,000 euros. Which I admit feels like a lot.

But when I contrast that to the following information from the Irish Penal Reform Trust (http://www.iprt.ie/prison-facts-2) regarding the expenditure on keeping prisoners incarcerated per year:

The average cost of imprisonment per prisoner was €65,404 in 2012, not including education spend; it was €65,359in 2011; €70,513 in 2010; €77,222 in 2009.

It seems to me that social welfare is definitely something that gets more negativity from regular working taxpayers than is perhaps warranted?

Would the die hard anti-dolers out there be prepared to do away with the dole but face an increase in crime as well as increase on tax expenditure in dealing with the results of such crime?

A_Sober_Paddy · 21-03-2014 05:24PM

Gets Popcorn:pac:

893bet · 21-03-2014 05:26PM

Jonny Blaze wrote: »

Now (full disclosure) I have been unemployed since 2008

Go get a job you thief.

professore · 21-03-2014 05:29PM

I think people mean the kind of people who have no intention of ever working, not someone like you. You are an example of how social welfare is meant to be used.

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy · 21-03-2014 05:30PM

Don't feel bad OP. When you do start working, and you will because IT is doing well, you'll pay a lot more than 60k back in your lifetime.

Jonny Blaze · 21-03-2014 05:30PM

professore wrote: »

I think people mean the kind of people who have no intention of ever working, not someone like you. You are an example of how social welfare is meant to be used.

Aw! Thanks!

It's not something I feel good about having to do and wasn't easy but I do understand that taxpayers must be pretty pissed off with dole recipients in general.

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy · 21-03-2014 05:33PM

Jonny Blaze wrote: »

Aw! Thanks!

It's not something I feel good about having to do and wasn't easy but I do understand that taxpayers must be pretty pissed off with dole recipients in general.

I'm one, and I'm not.

Also, why do you care? Life's too short to worry about everyone else's opinions.

Jonny Blaze · 21-03-2014 05:46PM

Duracell Bunny wrote: »

I'm one, and I'm not.

Also, why do you care? Life's too short to worry about everyone else's opinions.

Im just curious really!

kneemos · 21-03-2014 05:47PM

Don't hear taxpayers complaining when they get a new school or hospital built or when their road gets repaired,all
other people's money.

21-03-2014 05:59PM

OP you are not the type of social welfare recipient that people complain about( except for the odd nut who has a bee in their bonnet about back to education )

It is not as simple as crime v welfare its much more complex than that.

D1stant · 21-03-2014 06:01PM

Jonny Blaze wrote: »

Now, I have calculated roughly how much the state has paid for me over the last five years and it amounts to approximately €50-55,000 euros. Which I admit feels like a lot.

But when I contrast that to the following information from the Irish Penal Reform Trust (http://www.iprt.ie/prison-facts-2) regarding the expenditure on keeping prisoners incarcerated per year:

That means you saved the state 272,000 over a 5 year period by not being banged up. Kudos to you and everyone else on the dole!

* Warning: Female sales shopping logic applied in above calculation

Pug160 · 21-03-2014 06:16PM

I think some people view bone-idleness as one of the greatest sins of all. There is a certain amount of hostility for people such as bankers, but with bankers, I think people kind of say to themselves, well at least they've shown that they have ambition and drive, even though what they're doing is legal theft in some cases, and definitely exploitation. But of course, there are various reasons why people are on the dole.

shopaholic01 · 21-03-2014 06:17PM

It took 12 posts before the bankers were mentioned, we're getting complacent.

The Diabolical Monocle · 21-03-2014 06:23PM

kneemos wrote: »

Don't hear taxpayers complaining when they get a new school or hospital built or when their road gets repaired,all
other people's money.

mmmm now Im not taking sides but that seems a bit flawed.

Holsten · 21-03-2014 06:23PM

If there was no dole crime would sky rocket.

People will not starve and if they can't or won't get work they'll do whatever to get money.

Jonny Blaze · 21-03-2014 06:27PM

mariaalice wrote: »

OP you are not the type of social welfare recipient that people complain about( except for the odd nut who has a bee in their bonnet about back to education )

It is not as simple as crime v welfare its much more complex than that.

No i know it isn't really, but i just think some people kind of forget or don't really know why social welfare is important.

youtube! · 21-03-2014 06:27PM

Pug160 wrote: »

I think some people view bone-idleness as one of the greatest sins of all. There is a certain amount of hostility for people such as bankers, but with bankers, I think people kind of say to themselves, well at least they've shown that they have ambition and drive, even though what they're doing is legal theft in some cases, and definitely exploitation. But of course, there are various reasons why people are on the dole.

Agree with this post wholeheartedly , even to the point of I would rather see a person working while claiming as opposed to just sittin on their arses and doing nothing, at least person A in this scenario is showing a bit of drive wheras Person B is a lazy git and I bloody hate that!

Gone Drinking · 21-03-2014 06:27PM

If only it was the other way around, if only it was cheaper to put a person in prison than have them on the dole..

We could put everyone on the dole in prison, so getting a job meant getting out. What an incentive!*

*don't take this seriously

Jonny Blaze · 21-03-2014 06:29PM

D1stant wrote: »

That means you saved the state 272,000 over a 5 year period by not being banged up. Kudos to you and everyone else on the dole!

* Warning: Female sales shopping logic applied in above calculation

Thanks!

Potatoeman · 21-03-2014 06:30PM

The money to pay for our current expenditure is being borrowed. So we will need to make cuts or tax increases.

When you start taking money out of people pockets you will always get more people complaining. That said I do believe payments should decrease over time to encourage people to work and also not punish people who are trying to get off welfare.

Penny Tration · 21-03-2014 06:31PM

Duracell Bunny wrote: »

I'm one, and I'm not.

Also, why do you care? Life's too short to worry about everyone else's opinions.

I'm also one, and not annoyed in the slightest. It's good to know if I lose my job, I have a welfare payment to help me get back on my feet.

Hootanany · 21-03-2014 06:35PM

Most crime is commited by people on the dole.

Tigerandahalf · 21-03-2014 06:48PM

At the moment there just isn't enough jobs out there. Add to that the cost of renting, commuting and childcare and you see a group of people who are just trapped unless the salary from the job is high enough.
You have a lot of graduates in Ireland today who will never earn a graduate wage or progress in that direction. Colleges have churned out graduates and many of these people now want a certain type of job to fit their qualification.
The dole for young people is small at around 100 eur. I am quite surprised that we have not had more social unrest. People seem very docile about the whole thing.
This country is still very safe. You can walk down most streets without any issue. Food is still very cheap in this country. So is booze so not much to protest about. If we were to see significant food price increases it would be a different story.

Jonny Blaze · 21-03-2014 06:51PM

Hootanany wrote: »

Most crime is commited by people on the dole.

I wouldn't be at all surprised at that, however it isn't much of a leap to think that these people are in some cases still motivated primarily by being closer to poverty.

Hootanany · 21-03-2014 06:55PM

They spend all their money on beer and fags and go on the rob for their Holibobs.

goose2005 · 21-03-2014 06:55PM

Pug160 wrote: »

I think some people view bone-idleness as one of the greatest sins of all. There is a certain amount of hostility for people such as bankers, but with bankers, I think people kind of say to themselves, well at least they've shown that they have ambition and drive, even though what they're doing is legal theft in some cases, and definitely exploitation. But of course, there are various reasons why people are on the dole.

Which is a bit odd. Even the most useless, idle scrounger is only a burden on society for maybe €10k a year, which isn't much. And arguably they perform a civic function by setting an example - "better really try for a job or you'll end up like your cousin Des who hasn't worked in 20 years and eats Calvita without taking the plastic off.

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy · 21-03-2014 06:55PM

Hootanany wrote: »

Most crime is commited by people on the dole.

Dya think so?

Push Pop · 21-03-2014 06:59PM

You see the evidence of what scum are like even when they get the dole. If we did cut it off from them crime would skyrocket of course. We would see a huge rise in gated communities and gun ownership. I bet those two guys who attached the Brazilian student at the weekend will be dole lifers.
(Please note I am referring to the minority of welfare recipients who ruin it for all)

Hootanany · 21-03-2014 07:00PM

Duracell Bunny wrote: »

Dya think so?

I know so.

BillyMitchel · 21-03-2014 07:09PM

How does one break down the cost of a prisoner per-year?

Serious question!

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy · 21-03-2014 07:10PM

Hootanany wrote: »

I know so.

How can you be so sure?

If I was a career criminal and prolific at it, I wouldn't claim the dole because I'd have to provide a fixed address, and be at a certain place at a certain time.

So have you any genuine sources, or are you just spouting bs?

Dole Vs. Crime

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