.22 rounds

boltaction13

Lads I'm filling in the application form for a .22. Just wondering what's the norm for maximum ammo number

Sparks

The norm for what you apply for you mean? Depends on what you want to do with it. I know people like IRLConor, who'd go through tens of thousands of rounds in training in a year and who'd want to have about 100,000 as their limit because of batch testing logistics (ie. you have to buy in large batches of 10,000 and up and you want to have a large stock of training and match ammo to hand); and I know people who wouldn't go through a thousand rounds in three or four years.

Figure out how much you normally use in, say, three months and just put that down (and if it's over about a thousand rounds, write a single paragraph explaining why you need that many, because the AGS know more people on the <1000 side than they do on the >100,000 side!). If you needed more because of batch testing, you'd probably know that by now

Sparks

Merged and moved threads to keep things tidy...

boltaction13

Hunting and plinking out in the field nothing serious 1000 would be perfect for me. I taught it would have been less

Cass

Informal target shooting is illegal and putting this down as your reason for a higher amount will not work. There are guidelines as to the minimum amounts dependent on activity.

For example:

• Target shooting - 750
• Hunting/game - 100 -250
• Cartridges for clays - 750
• Cartirgdes for hunting - 100 - 250

There are other factors such as those Sparks mentioned above:

• Serious target shooting with rimfire/.22lr ammo could be in excess of 10,000
• Serious target shooting with a fullbore rifle could be in excess of 2,500

The fact is you apply for what you need, and what you need it for. So for your case, hunting, you apply for 1,000. Then you give a letter with the FCA1 outlining the reasons why you need 1,000 (eg. - time between trips to dealer, ammo comes in set quantities, allowance for empty brass which is classed as live ammo, etc, etc).

If deemed necessary you'll be given the amount. If not you'll receive an amount the Super feels suits your needs.

boltaction13

Luckily you said it was illegal I didn't know that thanks. I'll chance 500

Cass

Target shooting outside an authorised range is illegal. Even zeroing outside a range is illegal. Minister McDowell said that he did not intend to make zeroing illegal in the 2006/8 act (cannot remember which one) but never amended the Act/SI to allow for it.

Like getting a speeding ticket for doing one mile over the speed limit. Pedantic, and petty but the law.

The thing is most Gardaí use their common sense and if you are not acting the mick they don't push the issue. IOW you, firing 5 shots to check your rifle and not 15 lads firing hundreds of rounds all day.

HOWEVER, and i must stress this, it is not permission to do it. So if a Garda decides to arrest you for it you have no defence.

rsole1

Cass wrote: »

Target shooting outside an authorised range is illegal. Even zeroing outside a range is illegal. Minister McDowell said that he did not intend to make zeroing illegal in the 2006/8 act (cannot remember which one) but never amended the Act/SI to allow for it.

Like getting a speeding ticket for doing one mile over the speed limit. Pedantic, and petty but the law.

The thing is most Gardaí use their common sense and if you are not acting the mick they don't push the issue. IOW you, firing 5 shots to check your rifle and not 15 lads firing hundreds of rounds all day.

HOWEVER, and i must stress this, it is not permission to do it. So if a Garda decides to arrest you for it you have no defence.

A friend and I fired over 300 rounds at a rat in his field, the rat was fast and we kept on missing.

Cass

As long as the rat did not have a shoot-n-c on his back you're fine.

Sparks

rsole1 wrote: »

A friend and I fired over 300 rounds at a rat in his field, the rat was fast and we kept on missing.

...because, as we all know, the Gardai are just absolute suckers for clever arguments like that one.

:rolleyes:

Eo1n8wrd

My super said: You're definately getting no more than 100 rounds, I didn't debate it, so a lot of it is just what he feels is appropriate.

If its a .22 air rifle keep in mind the amount that come in one tin, it has happened that people have been given a max limit that is less than one tin of pellets!

BattleCorp

Always apply for at least 525 rounds as bulk boxes can come in that size. Not great ammo for accuracy but ok if you are not doing target shooting. No point having 500 on your licence as that would exclude you from buying a box of these.

Grizzly 45

EU and "felixible guidelines" is 500 as default.So thats a pretty good average to work with.

boltaction13

I've put down 525 so I can get the federal bulk pack. hopefully the super accepts

Cass

This is not a trick, but by using the law you can give more than enough good reason for the amount you want.

Fired rounds, or brass, are classed as live rounds. As such your license amount must be large enough to incorporate the brass and actual live rounds you have. So if you have a full tin of ammo that is 525 rounds and you have one empty brass then you are in breach of your license. So when applying i always double the amount i need. This allows for the amount of live rounds i have and the same in empties. As i reload this is a necessity as i don't dump the brass, but re-use it.

Now for hunting or non reloading ranges this would not be as good a reason, but still legally valid in that until such a time as you get rid of the brass you are in possession of "live ammo". So i'd apply for 1,050 and say that at any one time you have one tin of live ammo and one tin of either all empties/fired brass or a mix of live and empties.

If you think 1,050 is too much then ask for 750. This allows for the full tin and an additional 225 for empties/fired brass.

photosmart

Thats interesting - I must get rid of my empty cases so

Cass

It's the reason i request higher than normal levels of ammo on my licenses. Especially for the likes of the FTR rifle and the rimfire stuff. I go through a lot and don't always dispose of my brass regularly so end up with thousands in fired and live rounds.

The other kicker is brass from spent cases can only be disposed of at an authorised location. So a scrap yard that is not licensed to take in the brass is technically illegal. IOW they must hold some sort of authorisation or RFD status. Legally.

adrian5765

Morning. I target shoot only and have asked twice in writing for an increase in ammo. From day one I was allowed 100 rounds even after explaining I could shoot over 500 in a weekend competition and that's without any practice. I know it's down to the supers disgression but come on.

Eo1n8wrd

I have asked that question of the super and he seemed to think that fired brass was fine, Also i didn't know that reloading was allowed in ireland? do you have to apply for a special licence for the gear or the powder and primers?

Cass

Eo1n8wrd wrote: »

I have asked that question of the super and he seemed to think that fired brass was fine,

If brought to court the onus is on your to know. The Super could even say "i thought it was okay", and it still won't excuse you. Another little gem of the Irish firearm Acts.

Also i didn't know that reloading was allowed in ireland? do you have to apply for a special licence for the gear or the powder and primers?

It's done in the Midlands Shooting Centre of Ireland in Tullamore. For long range target shooters involved in F-Class.

In case i've given the impression, it's not for rimfire stuff. Even if you could reload rimfire stuff it's too awkward, hazardous and time consuming. Given the quality of the factory bought stuff you save no real money and gain nothing in terms of quality.

Eo1n8wrd

oh i know that little gem alright, Ignorance is no excuse.

I thought maybe you were reloading at home, I must take a spin as far as midlands sometime, it's just the massive pricetag that puts me off :-/

Cass

God no. Reloading at home, even for those on the reloading scheme is not allowed. Only on the range and under supervision of the range staff. It's also only for target shooting. So it's not a case of join, reload for hunting, etc. Membership of the range is a requirement to be part of the reloading scheme, but does not automatically give you reloading "rights". IOW you must be a member and on the F-Class squad.

It is strictly controlled and monitored by the range staff and the DoJ.

I have heard for years about the high cost of the midlands range membership and i have on numerous occasions "defended" the cost. I even started a thread some 8-9 months ago asking other ranges to post their prices for membership and only one response was given. The fee for the first year is €600. However it's only €300 per year after. The reason is simple. With such a large range, with so much overheads, the costs of running it are higher than a 50mtr range. Also as a member of the midlands you have the ability to apply for any caliber up to and including a .50 cal as the range is certified for it, and capable of allowing shooting of such calibers there. The high first year fee is to discourage those that would join, get their firearm as a member and then not return. IOW they now have a gun they normally would not have gotten without membership.

Most range run a scheme like this. However i've also been a member of other ranges over the years. One i was a member of is only 50mtr, another 100 mtr rimfire. No centrefire and the fee for membership is in excess of €800 er year, every year. Harbour house, i believe, charge €450 for the first year and €300 per year after that. The same as the midlands. Without seeming to be disrespectful Harbour house are only 50 mtr. Now they have other features such as Gallery range, etc. that the midlands do not have, but then again then concentrate on rimfire, pistol and gallery. It makes no sense for them to try and construct a 1,200 yard range much like it makes no sense for the Midlands to construct a Gallery rifle range. It's more a case of picking the range that best suits your needs and joining it.

Again i only use Harbour House as it's the only one i know of with open prices like the Midlands.

The Midlands has:

• 10 -25 mtr pistol range
• 25 mtr rifle zeroing/safety range
• 50mtr Benchrest range
• 50 mtr rimfire range
• 100 - 300 mtr centrefire/rimfire range
• 100 - 600 yard range
• 100 - 1,200 yard range
• Full reloading facilities built to DoJ/safety requirements
• Brand new club house along with existing one

It is also the home range for the NRAI and as such the Irish F-Class team/squad.

The cost of building and maintaining these year in and year out is very high. However as the range caters to long range shooting it is a necessity. I'm sure if they stopped using/allowing centrefires, long range shooting, reloading, etc the cost would go down to €100 per year.

Eo1n8wrd

Is it possible to stop in for a visit before commiting to membership?

Why would you apply for a firearm and then not re-join the next year? that seems pointless because you would have to show membership again to get the licence renewed! i imagine the range would tell you where to go pretty quick if they saw you doing that, also is it possible to have a range only stipulation on your licence if thats why you're applying for that firearm?

Sorry for the complete hi-jack of the thread btw.

Cass

Eo1n8wrd wrote: »

Is it possible to stop in for a visit before commiting to membership?

Absolutely. Any weekend just arrive and any of the lads will gladly show you around. You may even shoot on a limited number of visits if an existing member signs you in as a guest. You need only have your own insurance.

Why would you apply for a firearm and then not re-join the next year? that seems pointless because you would have to show membership again to get the licence renewed!

It does happen.

Picture this. A lad has no deer permission. He wants a .308. He joins a range and gets the license. It's three years until his renewal so he has three years of shooting with no "good reason". In reality it should not last that long, but the simple fact is the Gardaí are under powered in terms of manpower to enforce every aspect. The range would see that the member renews each year, but never shoots so the range can take the action of not accepting the renewal, but they have no power over the firearm license.

This is why ranges are required to provide member lists every year to An Gardaí/DoJ. To show who actually uses the rifles/firearms for the purpose they got it for.

i imagine the range would tell you where to go pretty quick if they saw you doing that,

As above. They (ranges) must supply member lists and then it's up to the Gardaí to follow up with these people.

also is it possible to have a range only stipulation on your licence if thats why you're applying for that firearm?

Not only is it possible, but in some circumstances people have been given licenses with these endorsements. IOW range shooting only.

IRLConor

Sparks wrote: »

I know people like IRLConor, who'd go through tens of thousands of rounds in training in a year and who'd want to have about 100,000 as their limit because of batch testing logistics (ie. you have to buy in large batches of 10,000 and up and you want to have a large stock of training and match ammo to hand);

Those numbers are a little higher than reality.

I've shot ~1000 rounds in the last two weeks or so, so that works out to about 20-25,000 rounds a year. In reality though, due to competitions (where I shoot fewer rounds) or breaks due to work trips abroad or ammo droughts or extended periods of shooting only on the SCATT I probably shoot about 10-15,000 rounds per year.

Ideally, I'd have 10,000 rounds on my license to make the batch testing process easier but with the 5,000 limit I have at the moment I can make it work without too much hassle.

Eo1n8wrd wrote: »

I must take a spin as far as midlands sometime, it's just the massive pricetag that puts me off :-/

The first year does take a chunk out of the wallet, but the regular yearly cost is quite reasonable. It's pretty hard to find a good, well-run, well-maintained range that costs less than roughly €300/year.

Sparks

IRLConor wrote: »

about 10-15,000 rounds per year

Hm, I thought you were a few thousand ahead of me (and when training I was going through somewhere between 25 and 30 thousand pellets a year).
(BTW, I still think you should have the 100k because if you find "the" batch, you're going to want to stock up...)

The first year does take a chunk out of the wallet, but the regular yearly cost is quite reasonable. It's pretty hard to find a good, well-run, well-maintained range that costs less than roughly €300/year.

Compare that to the cost of joining a gym, or clubs in sports like tennis...
It's a chunk of change, yes, but it's not even in the running for most-expensive-subscription-you'll-pay-this-year...

IRLConor

Sparks wrote: »

Hm, I thought you were a few thousand ahead of me (and when training I was going through somewhere between 25 and 30 thousand pellets a year).
(BTW, I still think you should have the 100k because if you find "the" batch, you're going to want to stock up...)

I've never found a .22 batch with more than 10-15,000 rounds available in it. I think .22 batches are substantially smaller than air pellet batches.

Sparks

Really? Daniel was walking past 100,000-sized batches in Lapua several years in a row...
(And I don't mean the special, "open in case of Russia" batches in the front yard either )

IRLConor

Sparks wrote: »

Really? Daniel was walking past 100,000-sized batches in Lapua several years in a row...
(And I don't mean the special, "open in case of Russia" batches in the front yard either )

Maybe back when Lapua was in Finland (all the smallbore stuff is in Schönebeck now), or maybe it's because I don't test at the factory.

Sparks

I'm guessing it's the latter (I'm pretty sure they're still cranking it in bulk).

Actually, now that I think about it, I'd bet a pint that they'll have been cranking a bit harder, but on the "special" batches for the front yard...

IRLConor

Sparks wrote: »

I'm guessing it's the latter (I'm pretty sure they're still cranking it in bulk).

Actually, now that I think about it, I'd bet a pint that they'll have been cranking a bit harder, but on the "special" batches for the front yard...

Well, there's the other point that there's not much point in testing less frequently than every 10,000 rounds or so. If you shoot 10,000 rounds through your barrel then you have a different gun at the end!

Buying 100,000 rounds would be a waste, since you'd probably have two different barrels in that time.

Sparks

I don't think you'd buy a (smallbore*) batch that large (though I wouldn't be surprised if the US team had at some point), but if you've got a batch in the 10k-20k size, and you find a (much) better batch, it'd be saner to just buy that batch and *then* sell the older batch (or use it for training and smaller matches). Talking with the smallbore shooters off the international circuit over the years, it seems having six or seven batches in the safe is just not that uncommon a practice, even when it means that they have more rounds in their house than the Irish Defence Forces would fire off in a year (which is slightly unfair I suppose since the DF use slightly larger rounds ).

TL;DR - I still think 10k is unreasonably small for any serious ISSF shooter (I can't speak to other shooting sports, but if they're dumping that much lead downrange, the argument applies there too).



*air batches, on the other hand... well, you can run 10k pellets through my air rifle and it's not going to change the barrel enough to warrant a batch change, so you buy as much as you can carry out of the factory if you can

IRLConor

Sparks wrote: »

Talking with the smallbore shooters off the international circuit over the years, it seems having six or seven batches in the safe is just not that uncommon a practice

Yup, but it wouldn't be unusual for those folks to have a bunch of barrelled actions too, so 1-2 batches per barrel is a lot more reasonable.

Sparks wrote: »

TL;DR - I still think 10k is unreasonably small for any serious ISSF shooter

True. If I wanted to shoot at my current pace and never have to work around my ammo limit I'd need maybe 15-20,000 as the limit on the cert.

It wasn't me!

From talking to the Eley reps, a batch typically, depending on material limitations and such, comes out at between 25 and 30 thousand rounds. Some bigger, some smaller, but that's probably your ballpark. Also, as Conor said, after an extra ten thousand rounds, your barrel will shoot differently. Now, maybe that means your batch shoots even better, but maybe it doesn't. It won't be the same anyway. At the moment we're testing every five thousand or so (roughly every six months) and the control batches I've been bringing along have not performed as well as they did when I first got them. In fact, they've mostly been pretty unremarkable. It wouldn't be a bad idea to test and select ammo very shortly before important matches, and as you say, due to probably having the ends of various bits and pieces you're working through that aren't your current best stuff which you're chewing up in training and maybe smaller matches or three positions, where your best stuff is reserved for prone, you'd want an ammo limit somewhere north of 20k anyway.