MMR Vaccine

mmrstudent

Are Irish parents vaccinating their kids with the MMR (measles mumps and rubella) vaccine now days? Why or why not?

RobFowl

mmrstudent wrote: »

Are Irish parents vaccinating their kids with the MMR (measles mumps and rubella) vaccine now days? Why or why not?

The vaccination rate was just under 70% a few years ago after the Autism scare (since proven to be not just unfounded but actually fraudulent), afaik it's up to 86% now. To generate herd immunity it needs to reach 95%.

Jumboman

mmrstudent wrote: »

Are Irish parents vaccinating their kids with the MMR (measles mumps and rubella) vaccine now days? Why or why not?

You will find that the people who are the most enthusiastic about the vaccine have a vested interest in promoting it.

I personally would never in a million years give it to my child.




http://www.naturalnews.com/041897_mmr_vaccines_autism_court_ruling.html

Jerrica

It saddens me to read opinions like yours Jumbo man. If you choose to put your child in danger of a life threatening disease that's your business, but by making that choice you are also putting my child in danger too - herd immunity is an absolute necessity for the efficacy of these vaccines. If you're going to scaremongering about these vaccines at least present evidence from reputable sources.

Jumboman

If people give the vaccine to their children and they believe it is safe and effective. How would non vaccinated children effect them ?

Jerrica

Herd immunity - the more individuals who get vaccinated, the more the infection path is disrupted and it hugely reduces the risk of exposure.

Measles *kills* children, and totally unnecessarily as it's a wholly preventable disease.

irishgrover

Jumboman,
do you actually have kids that are not vaccinated? and are you really using that false story as the basis for your view, or do you have any other religious/cultural/non rational reason for your opinion? Just curious

December2012

I wonder how this happens as schools ask for copies of the records.

ProfessorPlum

December2012 wrote: »

I wonder how this happens as schools ask for copies of the records.

Sorry - can you clarify - how what happens?

December2012

Any time I've sent an application form off for a school or play school I am asked to give details of vaccinations. If I can't give it, the child doesn't get a place.

So how do unvaccinated children get to crèche / play school / school?

studentforever

I'm just going to add my two cents as this really is a pet peeve of mine.

The Wakefield study was WIDELY discredited, and after all the details had come out, it was discovered that he himself was developing a safe 'Autism risk free' vaccine to replace the MMR. You want to talk about vested interest? This is as blatant as it gets. The Anti-vaxxer mentality makes absolutely zero sense to me.

There has been no other evidence (reputable evidence, not health/natural/wellness websites) showing any correlation between Autism and vaccinations. Show me a BMJ/AJM research articles or studies testifying to this and then maybe I can be convinced.

Have you personally seen a case of Polio or Small pox? No? Because vaccines work. To think otherwise is just reckless and frankly, child endangerment. Have a quick search for 'child suffering with Pertussis' and tell me that you could watch your child experience.

Populations have grown and people are living longer because the prevalence of infectious diseases that once killed us in infancy and childhood have been eradicated or vaccinated against. Herd immunity can only do so much in protecting against infection.

sullivlo

Jumboman wrote: »

If people give the vaccine to their children and they believe it is safe and effective. How would non vaccinated children effect them ?

Not all children can get the vaccine, like say a child with CF or who is on immunosuppressant drugs.

By your children not being vaccinated, they could potentially get the disease. If they get it, they could pass it on to children who cannot get the vaccine, and that could be potentially fatal.

The Wakefield study was not just discredited, it was rescinded. It was shown to be falsified.

Vaccines work because of herd immunity. It bugs the crap out of me that in this day and age people a) refuse to vaccinate, and b) rely on "natural news" to form their opinions on science.

ProfessorPlum

December2012 wrote: »

Any time I've sent an application form off for a school or play school I am asked to give details of vaccinations. If I can't give it, the child doesn't get a place.

So how do unvaccinated children get to crèche / play school / school?

State schools are not allowed to deny you a place in school on the grounds that your child is not vaccinated. Having said that, there would be an argument for making vaccination compulsory for those that can be vaccinated.....

Jumboman

irishgrover wrote: »

Jumboman,
do you actually have kids that are not vaccinated? and are you really using that false story as the basis for your view, or do you have any other religious/cultural/non rational reason for your opinion? Just curious

We not not living in a police state just yet. I have every right not to vaccinate them.

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2012/01/24/new-evidence-refutes-fraud-findings-in-dr-wakefield-case.aspx

Jumboman

ProfessorPlum wrote: »

State schools are not allowed to deny you a place in school on the grounds that your child is not vaccinated. Having said that, there would be an argument for making vaccination compulsory for those that can be vaccinated.....

If anybody tried to forcefully vaccinate my child it would be last thing they ever did.

sullivlo

Jumboman wrote: »

We not not living in a police state just yet. I have every right not to vaccinate them.

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2012/01/24/new-evidence-refutes-fraud-findings-in-dr-wakefield-case.aspx

They aren't peer reviewed articles. I would be the first to admit that the peer review process is flawed at best but there needs to be some accountability to claims. Mercola doesn't provide citable, reviewed references.

You, of course, have every right to not vaccinate your children. People also have every right to disagree with your decision.

ProfessorPlum

....And of course to point out that you are putting your own and other children at real risk of serious illness and death by not vaccinating them.

Vorsprung

Jumboman wrote: »

We not not living in a police state just yet. I have every right not to vaccinate them.

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2012/01/24/new-evidence-refutes-fraud-findings-in-dr-wakefield-case.aspx

I stopped reading when I got to the following:

The Daily Mail reported:....

Jumboman

ProfessorPlum wrote: »

....And of course to point out that you are putting your own and other children at real risk of serious illness and death by not vaccinating them.

O yeah so injecting my child with mercury is a good idea ?

ProfessorPlum

Jumboman wrote: »

O yeah so injecting my child with mercury is a good idea ?

Are you still taking about MMR??

studentforever

Increasing their chance of measles is more sane? Since you enjoy posting links here's something for you to read at your leisure.

http://www.centropediatrico.ch/Data/Neurologic%20disorder%20Pediatrics%202002.pdf

http://www.cdc.gov/measles/about/complications.html

Can you find me any epidemiological studies that show any sound evidence not to vaccinate your child? As someone said, you have every right to not vaccinate your children, but please educate yourself to both sides of the argument. If you still decide that vaccinations are not the way to go, fair enough. But you will know all the facts and possible outcomes.

Infectious diseases are preventable and it is a tragedy that children are the ones who suffer from the choices adults make based on conspiracy theorist ideas and fear mongering. Infertility, cognitive issues, loss of vision and hearing, disability, death and a myriad of other complications are the result of many infectious diseases. Your children may never become ill and live long and full lives, or may become sick and suffer at the hands of something which is entirely avoidable and needless.

Kurtosis

Jumboman wrote: »

O yeah so injecting my child with mercury is a good idea ?

Seriously? Where is the mercury in either this or this MMR vaccine? (Section 6.1 is where to look)

alchemist33

studentforever wrote: »

I'm just going to add my two cents as this really is a pet peeve of mine.

The Wakefield study was WIDELY discredited, and after all the details had come out, it was discovered that he himself was developing a safe 'Autism risk free' vaccine to replace the MMR. You want to talk about vested interest? This is as blatant as it gets. The Anti-vaxxer mentality makes absolutely zero sense to me.

There has been no other evidence (reputable evidence, not health/natural/wellness websites) showing any correlation between Autism and vaccinations. Show me a BMJ/AJM research articles or studies testifying to this and then maybe I can be convinced.

Have you personally seen a case of Polio or Small pox? No? Because vaccines work. To think otherwise is just reckless and frankly, child endangerment. Have a quick search for 'child suffering with Pertussis' and tell me that you could watch your child experience.

Populations have grown and people are living longer because the prevalence of infectious diseases that once killed us in infancy and childhood have been eradicated or vaccinated against. Herd immunity can only do so much in protecting against infection.

And my pet peeve was that it took Wakefield's discreditng to put this story to bed. It was generous to call the evidence linking MMR and autism flimsy, yet gullible people bought it. It actually took something as serious and out-of-the-ordinary as professional misconduct before some people actually looked at the evidence.

sam34

jumboman, you have previously been warned and banned on this forum for the very same crap you're at today. as before, this is a scientific forum with a standard of posting. if you make a claim, back it up with peer reviewed scientific articles. naturalnews and the daily mail don't count, btw.

if you fail to do this and continue to post in the manner you've done thus far, you'll be banned. again. for good this time. as before, don't say you weren't warned. now, you can call that censorship, bias, nazi-ism or whatever else you want to call it, but it won't change the forum charter and ethos.

Jumboman

sam34 wrote: »

jumboman, you have previously been warned and banned on this forum for the very same crap you're at today. as before, this is a scientific forum with a standard of posting. if you make a claim, back it up with peer reviewed scientific articles. naturalnews and the daily mail don't count, btw.

if you fail to do this and continue to post in the manner you've done thus far, you'll be banned. again. for good this time. as before, don't say you weren't warned. now, you can call that censorship, bias, nazi-ism or whatever else you want to call it, but it won't change the forum charter and ethos.

I've said all I have to say people can draw their own conclusions!

irishgrover

Jumboman wrote: »

I've said all I have to say people can draw their own conclusions!

the obvious conclusion is that you are quoting from websites that are talking out of their arse, and as a direct result are putting your kids (if you have any) and those that interact with those kids ((if you have any) at increased risk of death because you choose to be happily mislead by conspiracy theories....

locum-motion

Jumboman wrote: »

You will find that the people who are the most enthusiastic about the vaccine have a vested interest in promoting it.

I personally would never in a million years give it to my child.




http://www.naturalnews.com/041897_mmr_vaccines_autism_court_ruling.html

I am very enthusiastic about MMR vaccination, and I have no vested interest in it other than the wish to see a healthy population.

And just by the way, naturalnews.com is not a reputable source.

Jumboman

sam34 wrote: »

jumboman, you have previously been warned and banned on this forum for the very same crap you're at today. as before, this is a scientific forum with a standard of posting. if you make a claim, back it up with peer reviewed scientific articles. naturalnews and the daily mail don't count, btw.

if you fail to do this and continue to post in the manner you've done thus far, you'll be banned. again. for good this time. as before, don't say you weren't warned. now, you can call that censorship, bias, nazi-ism or whatever else you want to call it, but it won't change the forum charter and ethos.

Just one point I'd like to make before you ban me. These peer reviewed studies you speak of are all sponsored by the drug companies they are not impartial.

Our own Dr David Healy made the point that you can not trust any of these "studies" because the drug compainies can pick and choose what data suits them.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Pharmageddon-David-Healy/dp/0520275764/ref=pd_sim_sbs_b_3?ie=UTF8&refRID=045BQWQA981F35X7FZYW

sullivlo

Jumboman wrote: »

Just one point I'd like to make before you ban me. These peer reviewed studies you speak of are all sponsored by the drug companies they are not impartial.

Our own Dr David Healy made the point that you can not trust any of these "studies" because the drug compainies can pick and choose what data suits them.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Pharmageddon-David-Healy/dp/0520275764/ref=pd_sim_sbs_b_3?ie=UTF8&refRID=045BQWQA981F35X7FZYW

Simply not true unfortunately.

sheikhnguyen

Jumboman wrote: »

If anybody tried to forcefully vaccinate my child it would be last thing they ever did.

You haven't a single shred of evidence to back up your views so predictably you fall back on the old it's the drug companies and the vested interests lying to you nonsense.

You should have your children taken off you for endangering their lives through your own foolishness and willful ignorance. You are no better then the pray away the illness religious loons.

jetski

sheikhnguyen wrote: »

You haven't a single shred of evidence to back up your views so predictably you fall back on the old it's the drug companies and the vested interests lying to you nonsense.

You should have your children taken off you for endangering their lives through your own foolishness and willful ignorance. You are no better then the pray away the illness religious loons.

take their kids off them for not getting vaccinations? ur the loon.

sullivlo

jetski wrote: »

take their kids off them for not getting vaccinations? ur the loon.

So what happens if his kids get measles and develop complications and the worst happens?

Simply it's dangerous to not vaccinate without a medical reason to not.

Dr Nic

Jumboman you really do not know how medicine works at all do you?

Sanity_Saviour

http://howdovaccinescauseautism.com/

Mucco

Jumboman

December2012

Couldn't that be because autism was not diagnosed as widely as it is now?

Icemancometh

sullivlo

http://www.scpr.org/news/2014/03/18/42870/majority-of-states-measles-cases-were-unvaccinated/

Jerrica

From Jumboman's own graph: *Recent research has indicated that changes in diagnostic practices may account for at least 25% of the increase in prevalence over time, however much of the increase is still unaccounted for an may be influenced by environmental factors.

I realise that it's a bit of a fallacy to argue against such ill-thought out and ill-advised posts, but the scary thing is that these opinions are alarmingly widely held and unvaccinated children are suffering as a result. So if it means arguing with every loon who chooses to pedal the "Vaccinations are bad m''kay" lie then so be it. We know that there are people out there listening to idiots like Jenny McCarthy and the anti-vax groups, we know this because the data showing the terrifying rise in preventable diseases like whooping cough and measles tells us so.

From the LA Times: The Toll of the Anti-Vaccination Movement in One Devastating Info-Graphic.


Measles outbreaks (purple) worldwide and whooping cough (green) in the U.S., thanks in part to the anti-vaccination movement. (Council on Foreign Relations)




And again, by not vaccination your child you are putting other children at risk. Herd immunity is a real and necessary strategy. A six week old baby died in Christchurch, New Zealand on 26th February, and two days ago on March 19th a baby who was too young to yet be vaccinated died from whooping cough in Travis County, Texas. The Coroner in the NZ case has said "more extensive vaccine coverage could have prevented the baby's death".

Do vaccines cause autism? No. (CDC, Feb 13, 2014; Madsen et al., (2002) New England Journal of Medicine (sample size of over half a million children); Taylor et al., (1999) The Lancet).

So what has caused the rise in Autism in recent years?

Hospital-diagnosed maternal infections?
Exposure to environmental factors like pesticides, viruses, household chemicals?

The answer is: we don't know. What we DO know is that it's not because of vaccinations. Vaccinations save lives. In 1980, prior to widespread vaccination, 2.6 million deaths were caused each year due to measles. By 2012 this had reduced to 122 000. With even better vaccination protocols who knows, maybe measles could become a story for the medical history texts like smallpox. (WHO, February 2014).

Jerrica

p.s. the graph that Jumboman uses above is from the website AutismSpeaks. On the page dedicated to Vaccines and Autism:

Many studies have examined possible links between vaccination and increased prevalence of autism. This research has paid particular attention to the measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) vaccine, vaccines containing thimerosal and the total number of vaccines administered during early childhood or any one doctor’s visit. These studies have not found a link between vaccines and autism.

Ihaveanopinion

Jumboman wrote: »

Ridiculous graph and association with vaccination. If we are talking ridiculous graphs - here is one



http://harpursbizarre.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/pants-graph.png

Nonoperational

An interesting thread if one ever needs reminding that there are some very very stupid people in the world. Stupid impressionable people.


Let's ignore the peer reviewed scientific journals and listen to crackpot websites.

Why did I open this thread.

Mucco

Jumboman wrote: »

Autism Speaks graph

The Autism speaks graph only shows that the diagnoses of autism are increasing, that is all. You will need to offer clear evidence of some causal relationship with vaccines in order to persuade people that there is an issue.

The problems of non-vaccination are known:
In the Irish (measles) outbreak of 2000, which occurred as a direct result of lower vaccination rates following the MMR scare which reduced coverage to just 74%, there were 1,500 notified cases and 3 deaths. Clin Med December 2007 vol. 7 no. 6 562-578
Many of those 1,500 cases will have suffered complications, some permanent such as hearing loss.

Jumboman

Mucco wrote: »

The Autism speaks graph only shows that the diagnoses of autism are increasing, that is all. You will need to offer clear evidence of some causal relationship with vaccines in order to persuade people that there is an issue.

The problems of non-vaccination are known:
In the Irish (measles) outbreak of 2000, which occurred as a direct result of lower vaccination rates following the MMR scare which reduced coverage to just 74%, there were 1,500 notified cases and 3 deaths. Clin Med December 2007 vol. 7 no. 6 562-578
Many of those 1,500 cases will have suffered complications, some permanent such as hearing loss.

I'm not that familiar with the Irish "outbreak". But if you look at the recent "outbreak" in wales were a young man reportlay died from measles it turned out his death was not even caused by measles yet the media was more than willing to jump on the pro vaccination bandwagon.

So we need to take what the media say in these cases with a pinch of salt.

Mucco

Jumboman wrote: »

I'm not that familiar with the Irish "outbreak". But if you look at the recent "outbreak" in wales were a young man reportlay died from measles it turned out his death was not even caused by measles yet the media was more than willing to jump on the pro vaccination bandwagon.

So we need to take what the media say in these cases with a pinch of salt.

Can I ask, are you questioning the fact that measles can result in death?

The WHO states that the mortality rate is about 1 in a thousand, you can find the original research on their page.
It's also clear that the vaccine is effective - the graph I posted earlier is from the US Center for Disease Control, but there are plenty of other sources.
In summary, the vaccination is proven to reduce deaths, and also other measles complications such as hearing loss.

The point you are proposing is that the negative effects of the vaccine outweigh these positives. To make a fair assessment of the risk/benefit ratio of the MMR vaccine we need reliable evidence of the negative effects. If you can provide it, I will gladly consider it.

ProfessorPlum

Jumboman wrote: »

I'm not that familiar with the Irish "outbreak". But if you look at the recent "outbreak" in wales were a young man reportlay died from measles it turned out his death was not even caused by measles yet the media was more than willing to jump on the pro vaccination bandwagon.

So we need to take what the media say in these cases with a pinch of salt.

Do you mean the outbreak referred to here:

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-23135464

From the article:
Dr Marion Lyons, director of health protection at Public Health Wales:

"We are aware of the death of a man from measles, confirmed by the Swansea Coroner today. My sympathies are with the family at such a tragic time.

"Measles is a potentially fatal disease and around one in every 1,000 people who contracts measles in developed countries will die.

"Those not fully vaccinated with two doses of MMR are still highly likely to catch measles if they come into contact with an infected person as it is an extremely contagious disease.

"Although the outbreak has slowed down considerably in recent weeks, anyone who has not had two doses of the MMR is still unprotected.

"Symptoms of measles include fever, cold-like symptoms, fatigue, conjunctivitis and a distinctive red-brown rash that appears a few days into the illness.

"Anyone who thinks they or their child may have measles should speak to their GP immediately."


And what's with the "outbreak" inverted commas? Do you not believe there were outbreaks either?

RobFowl

Jumboman wrote: »

I'm not that familiar with the Irish "outbreak". But if you look at the recent "outbreak" in wales were a young man reportlay died from measles it turned out his death was not even caused by measles yet the media was more than willing to jump on the pro vaccination bandwagon.

So we need to take what the media say in these cases with a pinch of salt.

If you are going to claim there were no outbreaks you need to be able to back it up with references.
It's not the first time you've been told this.

GardenMadness

Jumboman wrote: »

I'm not that familiar with the Irish "outbreak". But if you look at the recent "outbreak" in wales were a young man reportlay died from measles it turned out his death was not even caused by measles yet the media was more than willing to jump on the pro vaccination bandwagon.

So we need to take what the media say in these cases with a pinch of salt.

Your own links were to the daily mail and natural news. If not part of the media, what are they?

In any event, I suggest you read this:

http://www.badscience.net/2008/08/the-medias-mmr-hoax/

Terry Gilliam Beard

Jumboman wrote: »

I've said all I have to say people can draw their own conclusions!

The conclusion is that you haven't a clue what you are talking about, and anyone who takes 'Natural News' - a conspiracy theory site making money by selling quack 'cures' to dupes - seriously really needs to load up on all the mercury they can get their hands on.

Terry Gilliam Beard

Jumboman wrote: »

So we need to take what the media say in these cases with a pinch of salt.

It seems that everyone is out to get you. Now, if we could only figure out what causes paranoia.