Need for fouling

minktrapper

Is there any need to foul a rifle barrel for accuracy with a shot before taking the shot.When using subsonic .22 fouling is a must but what about centrefire cartridges.

Cass

For hunting - no. The amount of discrepancy betweena clean and fouled barrel is insignificant for hunting purposes.
For target work - Possibly depending on the rifles performance from a clean/fouled barrel

FISMA

Cass wrote: »

For hunting - no. The amount of discrepancy betweena clean and fouled barrel is insignificant for hunting purposes.

Really?

I think you mean that if you cannot hit the target with a clean barrel, a fouled one wasn't going to change things much, correct? I guess I kind of agree as when I am at the 300ya range I usually joke that my groups are not going bring home the bacon (win competitions) but venison (perfect for hunting).

I am a bit of a clean freak when it comes to my firearms. I consult the manufacturer for grease points and sought out a Glock armorer for an explanation on the "gold-grease" they use in new guns.

However, when it comes to hunting season, the barrel is not cleaned.

At most, and only if I had too, I would put a cotton mop down the barrel, but no wet lubricants.

With wet lubricants, I would expect that the bullet would not rotate as well, but translate better. However, I do not know.

Also, imho, the shot most like the last one, is the next one. Going from a fouled barrel back to a clean one resets the variables and personally, something I would never do during hunting season.

If you are hunting close up, then maybe cleaning is not an issue. If what you are saying is that hunters need to hit a plate sized target inside of 200ya, then yes, cleaning does not matter.

However, when you are talking outside of 300, or 400ya, I would not want a cleaned barrel.

For those of us that take great pains in cold barrel zeroing, I would expect cleaning to be a considerable factor.

My zero is a cold, fouled barrel as I would expect most other hunters.

Cass

FISMA wrote: »

Really? I am a bit of a clean freak when it comes to my firearms. I consult the manufacturer for grease points and sought out a Glock armorer for an explanation on the "gold-grease" they use in new guns.

Without focusing on Glock only, handguns are a different kettle of fish and moot to the conversation.

I think you mean that if you cannot hit the target with a clean barrel, a fouled one wasn't going to change things much, correct?

This was edited in so i'm answering retrospectively.

What i mean is if your rig is set up right, and the fouling is not years old (cleaning completed neglected) then most rifles, out to 250 yards, will hit a 4" target with ease regardless of the condition of the barrel. This 4" target covers every type of game from rabbits, to foxes to deer. Not taking shooter's ability into account here. just the firearm.

If you are hunting close up, then maybe cleaning is not an issue. If what you are saying is that hunters need to hit a plate sized target inside of 200ya, then yes, cleaning does not matter.

However, when you are talking outside of 300, or 400ya, I would not want a cleaned barrel.

Hunting is done within 200 - 250 yards. Anything after that is sniping. Personal opinion that will no doubt raise a few comments about snobbery, talking s**t, etc. But so be it. If i want to shoot at something over 400 yards i have a range that goes to 1,200 and the paper is safer than shooting at an animal. I have the utmost of confidence in my ability and my firearms, just it's not my style of shooting.

For those of us that take great pains in cold barrel zeroing, I would expect cleaning to be a considerable factor.

I've never owned a gun that could not, from clean, cold, dirty, or warm/hot hit within 1/2" - 3/4" of my point of aim at 100 yards or 1" - 1.25" at 200 yards. So not a dinner plate and well within the limits of safe shooting.

My zero is a cold, fouled barrel as I would expect most other hunters.

All first shots would be cold. It's the first shot, and for hunting it's usually the only shot you get. IOW nearly every shot is a cold shot as game does not sit still after the first shot is fired. So it could be minutes to hours between shots.

As for fouled or clean. Its a personal choice. I have a habit of over cleaning due to the target side of my shooting. However i usually reserve this for centrefire or my target gear. I used to do it with my hunting but found it to be "pointless" as the amount of rounds fired did not necessitate a cleaning.

So with the hmr i leave it fouled for a set amount of rounds or time and then clean. It is always on zero at 100 yards. The centrefire stuff is the same, but usually done more frequently than the rimfire. However there is no loss of zero from clean to fouled. As said above if there is it's usually sub 1/2 MOA at a any distance so not noteworthy.

Lastly the OP did not specify whether it was hunting or target so i covered both bases. For target shooting it depends on caliber and type of shooting. Then above all else what the gun prefers, which every person should know about their gun, and their own personal preferences.

FISMA

Gotcha, and generally agree.

True, OP - what kind of centerfire shooting are we talking about: target, hunting, long distance, general merriment (rocks at 1000ya!).

Cass - ever try muzzle-loading? I have tried it in the States and it is a lot of fun.

It is amazing how dirty the bore gets, even when using "clean" burning powder.

When muzzle loading, you want to foul by "busting a cap!"
Seriously, that's where the expression comes from.

I bust a cap or two in order to ensure that the pinhole in the breech plug is not fouled closed. Nothing like loading up the muzzle loader with pellets and sabot and then finding out the plug is dirty.

I get about two, maybe three shots with nice precision. After that, every shot is exponentially off by inches.

Muzzleloading really is a one shot game.

tac foley

@Fisma - live-firing of muzzle loading firearms is difficult in the Republic right now. There is hope that this state of affairs might change in the future.

One of the problems, apart from the the present difficulties in getting the necessary license for the propellant, whether or not it be black powder or a substitute, is that the majority of muzzle-loaders exceed the present 'restricted firearm' calibre limits by a considerable margin, ignoring the physical facts that most muzzle loaders, even those firing projectiles the size of young pumpkins, still produce less muzzle energy than a .223 Remington.

Authorities, used to issuing licenses on a 'restricted firearm' basis to shooters with larger than .308cal firearms, are likely to have a hair-on-fire moment when faced with something like a .54cal Hawken...

tac

Cass

FISMA wrote: »

Cass - ever try muzzle-loading? I have tried it in the States and it is a lot of fun.

No.

Not really a big pastime here, but even it it were i've never had any interest in the "gud oul days". No interest in vintage, muzzle loaders, SxS, etc, etc. I'm a fan of the latest mod con. Newer calibers, accessories, specs, the latest in technological advances.


IOW shiny things.

4200fps

All I can say is a small bit of copper is your best friend and too much is your biggest enemy. I clean only remove the copper fouling when I notice the groups dispersing from what they normally should be. That seems to happen after 60 rounds or so has being fired.

tac foley

A casual visitor to our club range - intent on setting up his old rifle with some new ammnunition as his dad's supply had been used up, couldn't figure out why he failed to connect a single round on an 8" target at 100m - in twenty shots.

Seemed that his dad's Remington stuff, bought back in the 1950s and 60s, had the word 'Kleenbore' on the box, and both he and his late dad took this as it's word, and never EVER cleaned the barrel in over 40 years shooting. They put down the increasing frequency of missing to old age and failing eyesight.

The bore was black from end to end, and it took me and another 'helper' over five hours to recover it, using almost a thousand patches and five brushes to do it before traces of the rifling could be identified. Thankfully, that nice layer of copper fouling had preserved the rifling, and the gun finally shot five rounds, four times, into a two-inch circle at 100m...

A lesson had been learned by the owner, a toff with five thousand acres, but not enough brains to take care of a very valuable Rigby rifle, prolly worth more than my car.

tac

sfakiaman

tac foley wrote: »

The bore was black from end to end, and it took me and another 'helper' over five hours to recover it, using almost a thousand patches and five brushes to do it before traces of the rifling could be identified. Thankfully, that nice layer of copper fouling had preserved the rifling, and the gun finally shot five rounds, four times, into a two-inch circle at 100m...tac

That must have made the pressures in the bore a little on the interesting side!

ejg

Had a 308 Sako that would not hit a piece of paper at 50m after de-copper. Gradually it would get back on target and settled in after 10-15 rounds. When hot she could produce 30mm groups. After re-barrel with a Lothar Walther she had more or less zero difference between the first shot from a clean barrel or from a hot barrel after many rounds. Same with my Mauser also with Lothar Walther barrel or my Bartlein barrel in a Remmy, all in 308. These are all hand lapped barrels. The factory hammer forged barrels I had and have seem to need a few fouling shots to be "right".
Many deer stalkers take neck shots, in these cases it makes sense to make sure one hits the spot. In some cases it means a fouled barrel. I only stalk with a fouled barrel, even though the rifle prints (clean or dirty) on the same spot at 100m, never tested further out.
edi

tac foley

sfakiaman wrote: »

That must have made the pressures in the bore a little on the interesting side!

Yup. For a .30-06 - a known kicker - it was impressive, especially in a medium sporter without a scope to damp it down a bit.

tac

EWQuinn

tac foley wrote: »

A casual visitor to our club range - intent on setting up his old rifle with some new ammnunition as his dad's supply had been used up, couldn't figure out why he failed to connect a single round on an 8" target at 100m - in twenty shots.

Seemed that his dad's Remington stuff, bought back in the 1950s and 60s, had the word 'Kleenbore' on the box, and both he and his late dad took this as it's word, and never EVER cleaned the barrel in over 40 years shooting. They put down the increasing frequency of missing to old age and failing eyesight.

The bore was black from end to end, and it took me and another 'helper' over five hours to recover it, using almost a thousand patches and five brushes to do it before traces of the rifling could be identified. Thankfully, that nice layer of copper fouling had preserved the rifling, and the gun finally shot five rounds, four times, into a two-inch circle at 100m...

A lesson had been learned by the owner, a toff with five thousand acres, but not enough brains to take care of a very valuable Rigby rifle, prolly worth more than my car.

tac

Amazing, just when you thought you've seen or heard everything :eek:

minktrapper

Which centrefire ?Any of them to be honest.But was hoping to get a 17 Hornet for shooting foxs so was wondering about the performance of such a small but fast bullet on a clean and unfouled barrel.Would poi remain the same fouled or unfouled at 150 yds approx..

EWQuinn

I was avoiding getting into to this. But I will say that with my rifles, first shot out of a clean bore always has a different point of impact than the barrel fouled, as in after 2nd shot the groups tighten up.

With that modern .17 cartridge I don't think for a normal run of shots you would have a significant problem that will affect accuracy. You would have to test to see if there is a poi change from clean to fouled barrel. I am not sure but think they use pretty clean burning powder. One thing is for sure you have be meticulous when you do clean, going from breach to muzzle in the proper manner to avoid damage to crown.