Do the student unions in this country actually help students?

steddyeddy

Or are they just another form of youth politics? Personally I can only speak for UCD's "union" but I think they are a collective of self serving individuals with political ambitions. The previous student union in UCD didn't even have an accountant or publish their expenses. When they published the accounts 1 million was missing. 1 million's a nice round number so chances are it's more. The student bar in UCD, once the busiest bar in Ireland went out of business and several people lost their jobs under their management.

I won't get into how some of the union members used this money but I will say that one ex union member (and son of a prominent politician who also involved in an expense scandal) used a government limo to ferry him and other people from UCD to the Radison hotel (Across the road from UCD). Other members claimed rent expenses while still living with their parents.

Some of these people have now entered youth politics and undoubtedly will be as corrupt as they were in student politics.

As regard helping students they have been a joke. Students who have been temporarily unable to pay fees have been kicked out of the library have received no help from them on this issue. Instead the sit around getting paid for doing nothing.

What's everyone elses opinion of the student unions?

shruikan2553

They can help out with small things around the college but overall if they disagree with something all they can do is have a protest that offers a free pint.

sillyoulfool

No.
they help aspiring politicians of the future develop a profile.

pajor

In short the DIT SU are better than that. I was a class rep a couple of years back and they were keen to point out financial transparency. Accounts available of the website and all (at least back then).

Edit: Can't find them on the website but DIT SU are a registered company, so accounts have to be filed with the CRO.

wazky

They organise the RAG week and give out chape condoms.

somefeen

Student unions only exist as a training ground for the politicians of tomorrow. Everyone involved in a student union is an asshole of the highest order. They dont do anything, the whole thing only exists to serve the people running it

Skylinehead

DCU students union was exactly the same, absolutely useless for, well, everything.

Bubbaclaus

steddyeddy wrote: »

I think they are a collective of self serving individuals with political ambitions.

Fixed

steddyeddy

shruikan2553 wrote: »

They can help out with small things around the college but overall if they disagree with something all they can do is have a protest that offers a free pint.

They don't even do that though. Students in UCD are being kicked out of the library for being unable to afford fees and the union haven't done a thing about it.

SEPT 23 1989

they are the playschool for the sociopaths that end up running the country

Tasden

When my baby was sick the creche she went to on campus told me of a fund that the college had that I could apply to through the student union and they gave me a couple hundred and were really helpful. I was working and studying at the time and trying to pay for hospital visits and medicine and really couldn't have gotten through it without that payment at the time, they were really helpful and weren't judgemental or anything about me looking for handouts. Don't know if that's more the college or the SU but they were who I dealt with to get it. They also asked me the next year if I wanted to apply again but didn't need it thankfully.

steddyeddy

somefeen wrote: »

Student unions only exist as a training ground for the politicians of tomorrow. Everyone involved in a student union is an asshole of the highest order. They dont do anything, the whole thing only exists to serve the people running it

I personally know members of the union who have skimmed large amounts of money from student contributions who have entered party politics. Stealing from students is particularly low imo.

steddyeddy

Tasden wrote: »

When my baby was sick the creche she went to on campus told me of a fund that the college had that I could apply to through the student union and they gave me a couple hundred and were really helpful. I was working and studying at the time and trying to pay for hospital visits and medicine and really couldn't have gotten through it without that payment at the time, they were really helpful and weren't judgemental or anything about me looking for handouts. Don't know if that's more the college or the SU but they were who I dealt with to get it. They also asked me the next year if I wanted to apply again but didn't need it thankfully.

If it's UCD that's the college and the people who sit on the welfare fund. You apply through the union.

Tasden

steddyeddy wrote: »

If it's UCD that's the college and the people who sit on the welfare fund. You apply through the union.

Nah a different college, I know the fund is the college but in order to actually apply and stuff its the SU you've to deal with and begging for handouts is difficult enough but they were helpful and nice about it.

SEPT 23 1989

steddyeddy wrote: »

I personally know members of the union who have skimmed large amounts of money from student contributions who have entered party politics. Stealing from students is particularly low imo.

could you not go to the media with this info?

GalwayGuy2

It's full of egotistical, self-entitled sociopaths.

So, like an extreme version of politics.

steddyeddy

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

could you not go to the media with this info?

The university papers have the info on these people but they won't release it because it would be damaging to the students involved, the welfare funds and the campaigns (eg AWARE ect).

steddyeddy

Here's link to the missing money story. The bit in bold is interesting.

Mark Hilliard and Louise Hogan – Updated 04 December 2012 02:08 PM
THE students' union at University College Dublin has run up debts of €1.4m following years of catastrophic accountancy practices.




The Revenue Commissioners, which is owed nearly €400,000 in unpaid tax liabilities, have been contacted.
A meeting at the university campus last night, attended by over 100 students, was given details of the union's deficit following a thorough audit of its financial affairs from 2007 to June last year.
It uncovered a lack of systematic book-keeping; missing bank statements, paperwork and cheque stubs; and evidence that the union had paid employees without deducting tax.
Gerry McNally, of McNally Business Services Ltd, told the meeting he had been called in to "get a position in terms of what the financial status of the union was" and to "put systems in place to make sure that the problems do not go forward".
With an annual turnover of around €4m, the union was a "big organisation by Irish standards" and included four retail outlets, Mr McNally said.
"There has been no real control of day-to-day spending."
Cheques
He said his team had uncovered a "really poor, or lack of management" in financial activities.
Slides shown during the half-hour presentation cited a "lack of clarity and transparency between (union) entities" and "no formal management reporting" as well as "substandard books and records".
"We couldn't find cheques written so we couldn't find out who cheques had been written to," said Mr McNally.
There were up to 23,000 bank transactions over the four-year period and as many as 10,000 of these held no initial explanation.
While the trawl of the union's books has been completed, it must be signed off by an external accountant -- a process likely to take another two months.
It was unclear last night what action, if any, the Revenue is likely to take, although the meeting heard that the union could face interest and penalties on the €397,000 outstanding in tax liabilities.
Union shop losses over the period ran to some €358,000 and general cost overruns within the organisation itself reached €210,000.
Mr McNally said that formal structures had now been put in place to ensure that the situation does not arise again.
Income
In the meantime, the union is facing the prospect of seeking a hefty bank loan of up to €900,000 in order to pay its bills. It is unclear what financial involvement, if any, the university has in the union's affairs or whether it will be in a position to offer any assistance.
However, referring to income received from student registration, union president Pat de Brun said: "We are in a pretty unique position because not many businesses can go in and say we have guaranteed income of €700,000 a year."
Irish Independent

Artful_Badger

Depends what you mean by "help" students.

As far as I see they dont do anything remotely beneficial to a students academic life. They play the politicians to get elected wasting money on tat to give out, then once elected they stick to their core duties of organising piss ups and showing up for photo opportunities.

So if you mean in terms of academics then no they dont help students, if you mean do they organise piss ups then yes they do help students have a good time while their actual college work usually suffers for it.

jane82

steddyeddy wrote: »

I personally know members of the union who have skimmed large amounts of money from student contributions who have entered party politics. Stealing from students is particularly low imo.

Yeah stealing from the sick elderly or working people is far less a crime than stealing from students.

steddyeddy

Artful_Badger wrote: »

Depends what you mean by "help" students.

As far as I see they dont do anything remotely beneficial to a students academic life. They play the politicians to get elected wasting money on tat to give out, then once elected they stick to their core duties of organising piss ups and showing up for photo opportunities.

So if you mean in terms of academics then no they dont help students, if you mean do they organise piss ups then yes they do help students have a good time while their actual college work usually suffers for it.

Here's a clear example. Many students can't afford to pay college fees by a certain date. Those students can often pay later but not now i.e. it's a case of can't pay as opposed to won't pay. The union doesn't have a stance on the issue and any time they have been asked to get involved the side step the issue. Representing students on this issue would actually involve too much work for them. Bear in mind every student pays a compulsory fee to the union to represent them.

steddyeddy

jane82 wrote: »

Yeah stealing from the sick elderly or working people is far less a crime than stealing from students.

Well yes that's worse IMO. I didn't say it wasn't?

Bipolar Joe

jane82 wrote: »

Yeah stealing from the sick elderly or working people is far less a crime than stealing from students.

Fup off, this thread is about an entirely different thing. Take it to another thread.

steddyeddy

Bipolar Joe wrote: »

Fup off, this thread is about an entirely different thing. Take it to another thread.

I don't get it. Who steals from elderly or sick people?

Artful_Badger

steddyeddy wrote: »

I don't get it. Who steals from elderly or sick people?

Thieves I'd imagine.

LostBoy101

You are not wrong in saying SUs don't help students in most bigger colleges like UCD and TCD. It is the playground for those who wish to have a politicial career.

However my college has got it act together and brought in an accountant this year to ensure that we don't run up any debts. We've improved a lot this year and set a solid structure for our union. A student hardship fund was established and helped many students pay for their bus fares, lunch etc.. I just hope our next SU officiers don't ruin what we've established this year.

steddyeddy

LostBoy101 wrote: »

You are not wrong in saying SUs don't help students in most bigger colleges like UCD and TCD. It is the playground for those who wish to have a politicial career.

However my college has got it act together and brought in an accountant this year to ensure that we don't run up any debts. We've improved a lot this year and set a solid structure for our union. A student hardship fund was established and helped many students pay for their bus fares, lunch etc.. I just hope our next SU officiers don't ruin what we've established this year.

That's good to hear LostBoy. Just be careful who you vote in and you'll be grand.

PizzamanIRL

Someone needs to tell them there's no 'i' in student union.

Bipolar Joe

PizzamanIRL wrote: »

Someone needs to tell them there's no 'i' in student union.

There's two U's, though. And some other letters. Also, if you mispronounce union, it sounds like onion, which have layers like ogres. Mean old men are sometimes referred to as ogres. Many politicians are mean old men. Some are donkeys. Basically politics is Shrek.

Femme_Fatale

It being AH, there'll be reams and reams of "Student unions are bad" because that's the thing to say, but obviously they have their good points. I'd prefer they were there, than not.

steddyeddy

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

It being AH, there'll be reams and reams of "Student unions are bad" because that's the thing to say, but obviously they have their good points. I'd prefer they were there, than not.

To be honest I don't think they make much difference.

Artful_Badger

LostBoy101 wrote: »

You are not wrong in saying SUs don't help students in most bigger colleges like UCD and TCD. It is the playground for those who wish to have a politicial career.

However my college has got it act together and brought in an accountant this year to ensure that we don't run up any debts. We've improved a lot this year and set a solid structure for our union. A student hardship fund was established and helped many students pay for their bus fares, lunch etc.. I just hope our next SU officiers don't ruin what we've established this year.

If it can change like that then surely the college would be be better off separating SU's (which are student groups to aid students in having a good social life) and actual student support services like extra financial assistance ?

I seen those hardship funds set up last year when there were late grant payments. I also heard the stories about students going hungry etc etc etc. Yet there was already financial support available through student services and the SU's never skipped a beat in organising the piss ups. .

I dont think kids playing politician should be in charge of anything serious like hardship funds for struggling students if there is extra funding available it should be used by actual student support services which will check these things to make sure the money is appropriately allocated to students who need it.

Artful_Badger

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

It being AH, there'll be reams and reams of "Student unions are bad" because that's the thing to say, but obviously they have their good points. I'd prefer they were there, than not.

There will also be quite a few who will go out of their way to defend them simply to go against the consensus.

upstairs for coffee

In the UCC union there is an "entertainment officer". First point - why does a union need an entertainment officer? What a redundant position. Secondly this was a previously unpaid role until the guy that got elected to the position volunteered himself to avail of 13,000 grand or so per year salary. Crazy.

G_R

In fairness to the the SU in DIT is pretty good. I had two issues I needed their help with throughout my time there and they knew how to help and did so pretty quickly.

I sat on the Student Council as a class rep for a year and it is very accountable. Accounts are published, the exec officers have to account for every cent they spend, and rightly so.

They are an effective lobby, and have changed DIT Management's opinion on things.

Simple little example, they got the restraunt in Aungier Street to stop charging for red sauce and mayonnaise.

Aside from anything else, it's good practice to get people voting so that they participate in politics outside college.

Femme_Fatale

Artful_Badger wrote: »

There will also be quite a few who will go out of their way to defend them simply to go against the consensus.

Or they genuinely see benefits to them and reckon there has to be some sort of focal point for students, especially newbies. What are the actual causes of taking issue with them as a whole? Besides the generic "They're for self-serving future politicians" (not always).

Artful_Badger

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Or they genuinely see benefits to them and reckon there has to be some sort of focal point for students, especially newbies. What are the actual causes of taking issue with them as a whole? Besides the generic "They're for self-serving future politicians" (not always).

Just as those who dislike them may genuinely not see the benefits. All sorts of people with all sorts of opinions. Prefacing your own opinion with a dismissal of the opposing view as being said because its the "thing to say" isnt a great start for any meaningful discussion.

Adamantium

sillyoulfool wrote: »

No.
they help aspiring politicians of the future develop a profile.

Power hungry children that should never be allowed to hold public office.

I'm a former Education Officer of TCDSU. In terms of things I did, I helped with the confidential education issues of students as they came to me and helped people get into college by advising them of the different financial schemes available (which they didn't know about because their secondary school career advisors were pants). I increased the amount of study space available to students coming up to exams and started providing support (things like food/pens/calculators) to students entering the exam hall if they needed them. I won student representation on various committees and other areas. I challenged the college on anything that came up that might be negative to students. And other small changes which I've long since forgotten.

The one thing I did that made the most difference to students happened towards the end of my year there. In the days before StudentFinance.ie, I set up a centralised website for grants applicants in Ireland called MyGrant.ie which received tens of thousand of unique visitors each year - and I believe caused the powers that be to get their act together and push forward the creation of Studentfinance.ie (indeed, at one point I was approached by the HEA as they considered buying mygrant.ie). Incidentally there's some degree of irony in that MyGrant.ie had a forum which, thanks to Devore, was hosted on boards.ie and SUSI now have a dedicated forum here answering queries on basically the same things but obviously with more authority.

Anyways. I'm not a politician now nor will I ever be nor am I an apologist for any actions of an SU. I can't speak for your experience of SUs and of course it's quite easy to tar everyone with the same brush but hey, some of us worked our asses off for students.

Femme_Fatale

Artful_Badger wrote: »

Just as those who dislike them may genuinely not see the benefits. All sorts of people with all sorts of opinions. Prefacing your own opinion with a dismissal of the opposing view as being said because its the "thing to say" isnt a great start for any meaningful discussion.

But what are the problems besides the "future politicians" thing?

Adamantium

upstairs for coffee wrote: »

In the UCC union there is an "entertainment officer". First point - why does a union need an entertainment officer? What a redundant position. Secondly this was a previously unpaid role until the guy that got elected to the position volunteered himself to avail of 13,000 grand or so per year salary. Crazy.

It's a tough job, but somebody has to do it, looks I'm the only person who has what it takes. :pac:

KyussBishop

UCD students union sounds like a good field-testing place for students studying criminology - if expenses have been pilfered like that, people should be going to prison.

steddyeddy

Adamantium wrote: »

Power hungry children that shouldn't be holding public office

Bingo. It was science day in UCD recently and an ex student union member was following UCD's president around throughout the event. He was sucking up to him constantly while plugging himself and the job he did for the union.

steddyeddy

KyussBishop wrote: »

UCD students union sounds like a good field-testing place for students studying criminology - if expenses have been pilfered like that, people should be going to prison.

The union said the gaurds won't investigate until a crime is reported.

Femme_Fatale

The running of some of them may leave a lot to be desired but I don't see how not having them at all would be a good thing.

shruikan2553

In some of the Dublin SUs there is definitely a number of people using the SU as a stepping stone into politics. They would create a battle royal type even between the different college in the Unis if it meant getting the approval of a politician.

That would be great, the law students killing each other, the medicine students making deals with the others trading their medical skills for protection, the science students killing people with chemicals and physics, maybe release a bear then the engineering students build fortresses and devices. Must sell this idea to RTE.

KyussBishop

steddyeddy wrote: »

I personally know members of the union who have skimmed large amounts of money from student contributions who have entered party politics. Stealing from students is particularly low imo.

In all seriousness: Consider trying to report this for investigation - anonymously if need be.

It's robbery and fraud, so these people should be in prison - and the whole lot should be investigated.

suicide_circus

I seem to recall UCD SU officers being the biggest load of insufferable **** I had ever come across. Self-serving incompetent soapbox merchants, devoid of integrity, originality and common sense. Middle class "socialist" in need of a good wash and a good kick in the bollox.

KyussBishop

steddyeddy wrote: »

Here's link to the missing money story. The bit in bold is interesting.

Yep - pretty textbook case of blatant, not-even-hidden fraud.

If you contact media outlets, particularly journalists who write on stories such as this (unfortunately I don't know many such Irish journalists), I'd say it's a story that has legs.

Femme_Fatale

Dónal wrote: »

Anyways. I'm not a politician now nor will I ever be nor am I an apologist for any actions of an SU. I can't speak for your experience of SUs and of course it's quite easy to tar everyone with the same brush but hey, some of us worked our asses off for students.

Spot on. Fair play to you.

Adamantium

shruikan2553 wrote: »

That would be great, the law students killing each other, the medicine students making deals with the others trading their medical skills for protection, the science students killing people with chemicals and physics, maybe release a bear then the engineering students build fortresses and devices. Must sell this idea to RTE.

I'd imagine this guy would be fit right in with the engineers:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axZ-SZJhN60