Lamb Mortality

Dickie10

not a nice topic but just wondering , what would be considered a good lamb crop or loss rate? and has anyone had much trouble with foxes, things went great here and 75% through lambing until I got a lamb with head off it this morning, very pissed off , he was 3 days old. haven't had fox trouble for years. the rain last night prob didn't help , I have a good guy coming tomorrow to dig out the foxs hopefully. Has anyone any tips on how I can prevent this. I usually lm in 48 hrs and then out when fairly strong ie can easily run after their mother or as I measure it hard to catch running around the shed:o

Green farmer

Would it be possible a stoat got the lamb ? Whenever a fox took mine, there was no trace of the lamb afterward. ?

weatherbyfoxer

Get yourself some fox snare and see if you can find some passes in the hedges around the farm...I generally do this if I notice many foxes around the place at lambing time....always get 3 or 4

grassroot1

It does not sound like a fox attack, get on to your local gunclub and see if someone can lamp for foxes at night maybe they will get the culprit

solerina

Its very annoying when foxes take lambs (I agree with above poster, there is never any sign of the lamb)...but when OH got rid of the foxes a few years ago the rabbit population got out of control and ate all the grass....now we leave the balance of nature alone....they never take too many lambs anyway..the bloody grey crows are far worse pests imo.

rancher

Dickie10 wrote: »

not a nice topic but just wondering , what would be considered a good lamb crop or loss rate? and has anyone had much trouble with foxes, things went great here and 75% through lambing until I got a lamb with head off it this morning, very pissed off , he was 3 days old. haven't had fox trouble for years. the rain last night prob didn't help , I have a good guy coming tomorrow to dig out the foxs hopefully. Has anyone any tips on how I can prevent this. I usually lm in 48 hrs and then out when fairly strong ie can easily run after their mother or as I measure it hard to catch running around the shed:o

The 'experts' say between 6% and 12% from scanning to weaning, has been 6-8% for the last few years here, we leave dead lambs out for the foxes here, we find it helps

Dickie10

all went well enough so far the count at te min is 112 lambs from 61ewes, lost 4 lambs , 2, I should have prevented the other 2 couldn't do much

razor8

When your counting up mortality do ye include lambs from any ewe that slipped lambs or aborted.

Here I include everything. Had lost 7 this week and not due to start until next week

Birdnuts

If you rub Stockholm tar along the back and neck of a lamb - no fox or anything else will bother it

rancher

razor8 wrote: »

When your counting up mortality do ye include lambs from any ewe that slipped lambs or aborted.

Here I include everything. Had lost 7 this week and not due to start until next week

So do I, whatever is found at scanning compared with the no. weaned

sea12

rancher wrote: »

The 'experts' say between 6% and 12% from scanning to weaning, has been 6-8% for the last few years here, we leave dead lambs out for the foxes here, we find it helps

Never understand why some people feed the dead lambs to fox. Ure only giving the the taste for more and encouraging them to be around the shed

Conmaicne Mara

sea12 wrote: »

Never understand why some people feed the dead lambs to fox. Ure only giving the the taste for more and encouraging them to be around the shed

Feed the ****er with lead.

rancher

sea12 wrote: »

Never understand why some people feed the dead lambs to fox. Ure only giving the the taste for more and encouraging them to be around the shed

Do you not think that once they take their first lamb, they'll be coming again anyway.

Sheep breeder

If the head was taken off the lamb it was a dog fox as he takes the head as he can carry it in his mouth, a dog fox at this time of the year is travelling around a lot and looking for handy food and when he finds a source will keep coming back and is very hard to shoot compared to a vixen, the second the lamb is put on him gone and won't stand for the lamb.
To leave a lamb for the fox is madness

Lano Lynn

solerina wrote: »

Its very annoying when foxes take lambs (I agree with above poster, there is never any sign of the lamb)...but when OH got rid of the foxes a few years ago the rabbit population got out of control and ate all the grass....now we leave the balance of nature alone....they never take too many lambs anyway..the bloody grey crows are far worse pests imo.

if you don't have a rabbit population to rely on foxes can be a real pain in the pocket.
before the dumb ass compulsory fallen stock collection rip off was dreamt up we would dig a trench n start at one end backfill lightly over each dead ewe the local foxes would dig down to dine.If they got too plentiful would take a few out wit .22 or snare.never had a problem with lambs being taken.
then that all had to stop guess what happened yep started having lambs taken and attacked.so now have to shoot more foxes.
during lambing I leave afterbirths outside the back of the shed (a couple each day) foxes use it like a take out .no bother to lambs for years.

(i accept that this policy is easier to practice when lambing larger flocks over a short period)

fundamentally foxes are lazy creatures of habit.
there is a balance that can and should be struck.

grey crows n magpies are just cruel sadistic vermin....no mercy

Conmaicne Mara

Dickie10 wrote: »

not a nice topic but just wondering , what would be considered a good lamb crop or loss rate? and has anyone had much trouble with foxes, things went great here and 75% through lambing until I got a lamb with head off it this morning, very pissed off , he was 3 days old. haven't had fox trouble for years. the rain last night prob didn't help , I have a good guy coming tomorrow to dig out the foxs hopefully. Has anyone any tips on how I can prevent this. I usually lm in 48 hrs and then out when fairly strong ie can easily run after their mother or as I measure it hard to catch running around the shed:o

Ah, I seen this on Twitter didn't I, glad you found someone to go digging.

rancher

Sheep breeder wrote: »

If the head was taken off the lamb it was a dog fox as he takes the head as he can carry it in his mouth, a dog fox at this time of the year is travelling around a lot and looking for handy food and when he finds a source will keep coming back and is very hard to shoot compared to a vixen, the second the lamb is put on him gone and won't stand for the lamb.
To leave a lamb for the fox is madness

We get lambs taken but once we give them dead lambs, it stops....been doing it for years. never shot a fox in my life

Conmaicne Mara

I know of two places, that have three separate large rabbit populations, where the foxes at lambing time bypass and in some cases go directly through the rabbits to get to the lambs.

Out shooting one night I saw something interesting. I was following a fox through the rifle scope walking through a field. It was heading for a fence to get out onto the hill. Between the fox and me was a ewe & lamb, which when spotted by the fox cause it to change course. The lamb was trailing the ewe, which was eating then taking a few steps. The fox would only move when the ewe moved, but the foc would move farther than the ewe and so closing the distance on the lamb. Both ewe and lamb were oblivious to the foxes presence. I watched all this unfold until the fox got within five yards or so of the lamb, had to shoot the fox then. Wished I had a video camera!

Birdnuts

If your not in position to cull foxes yourself, your local GC will usually be only too willing to do the job for you. Loads of lads looking for permissions on which to lamp foxes. If you put up a thread in the hunting forum you will be swamped with offers by lads looking to do some foxing.

Green farmer

I'd have a policy of making it as hard as possible for the fox .get a few lads to patrol regularly lamping. If you leave out dead lambs, I think it will draw more foxes to your land, as they have a regular food source. Also you'll notice them becoming bolder appearing earlier in the evening.

Bird nuts, would ye ever pay a hunter for plugging a few foxes or are they just happy for having somewhere to shoot ? I give the guy that does it for me something small every now and again , but don't know what the done thing is elsewhere ?

Conmaicne Mara

Green farmer wrote: »

I'd have a policy of making it as hard as possible for the fox .get a few lads to patrol regularly lamping. If you leave out dead lambs, I think it will draw more foxes to your land, as they have a regular food source. Also you'll notice them becoming bolder appearing earlier in the evening.

Bird nuts, would ye ever pay a hunter for plugging a few foxes or are they just happy for having somewhere to shoot ? I give the guy that does it for me something small every now and again , but don't know what the done thing is elsewhere ?

If he isn't a sheep farmer himself, could you butcher a lamb for him or something? Have had experience of money before and in the end it went arseways and left a bad taste tbh. Some type of barter I feel is much better.

Birdnuts

Green farmer wrote: »

Bird nuts, would ye ever pay a hunter for plugging a few foxes or are they just happy for having somewhere to shoot ? I give the guy that does it for me something small every now and again , but don't know what the done thing is elsewhere ?

I shoot my own foxes but the majority of lads I know would happily lamp foxes for free if the permission concerned is within a reasonable distance of their home. Of course throwing a few euro someones way for ammo/petrol etc. is allways appreciated.

rancher

Birdnuts wrote: »

I shoot my own foxes but the majority of lads I know would happily lamp foxes for free if the permission concerned is within a reasonable distance of their home. Of course throwing a few euro someones way for ammo/petrol etc. is allways appreciated.

Local Gun club did a good job around here last year but we had one elusive one, and he'd take a live one if there wasn't a dead one, eventually he got hit on the road, but he got to drag himself into our field before he died.
Lambs have to get out quick here, so they'd only be 1 or 2 days old. so they make nice fox fodder

Green farmer

There's nothing worse then a rogue fox. They can get right bold. They'll break your heart if they can get away with it.

Birdnuts

rancher wrote: »

Local Gun club did a good job around here last year but we had one elusive one, and he'd take a live one if there wasn't a dead one, eventually he got hit on the road, but he got to drag himself into our field before he died.
Lambs have to get out quick here, so they'd only be 1 or 2 days old. so they make nice fox fodder

Foxing lads would see that lad as a challenge;) - if he's attracted to dead lambs then it should be easy to trap/snare him or set up a shooting position using the dead lambs to bring him in. I've got a few tricky ones over the years using these methods.

Conmaicne Mara

Birdnuts wrote: »

Foxing lads would see that lad as a challenge;) - if he's attracted to dead lambs then it should be easy to trap/snare him or set up a shooting position using the dead lambs to bring him in. I've got a few tricky ones over the years using these methods.

Or pop over to The Crimea and buy a few land mines that are for sale in all good Spar shops there.

Birdnuts

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

Or pop over to The Crimea and buy a few land mines that are for sale in all good Spar shops there.

The problem is that I would be tempted to use them on the TV license man and other unwelcome 2 legged visitors:pac:

Dickie10

auld lad met me coming in from college with good news and bad news showed me another dead lamb with the head eat off and then preoceeded to tell me how the lads were back this morning found the hole and dug him out and shot him, thank god we got he f**ker at but at the expense of two dead lambs, bit pissed off as it was a single, 10 days old! wonder would the ewe take a lamb on her ? down to the last 6 sheep here bar two ewe lambs mid april, dunno what the count is but its near 128 from 72 ewes, pity about the two I lost to the fox things were going so well, lost 5 altogether so far touch wood that will be it!

razor8

Dickie10 wrote: »

auld lad met me coming in from college with good news and bad news showed me another dead lamb with the head eat off and then preoceeded to tell me how the lads were back this morning found the hole and dug him out and shot him, thank god we got he f**ker at but at the expense of two dead lambs, bit pissed off as it was a single, 10 days old! wonder would the ewe take a lamb on her ? down to the last 6 sheep here bar two ewe lambs mid april, dunno what the count is but its near 128 from 72 ewes, pity about the two I lost to the fox things were going so well, lost 5 altogether so far touch wood that will be it!

Unlikely to work but only hope would be to skin dead lamb

Conmaicne Mara

Here's a question, and ye'll see right away where I'm going with this. But, could a dead lamb carcass be hung from an electric fence?

Dickie10

sorry don't get u , oh wait just putting it through now ,... oh yes perhaps don't think be a good conducter though unless soaking wer, but I like your thinking, a bit like me with the dogs ha

Western Pomise

Would not condone this but know some farmers leave out dead lambs that might have been treated with an appetiser for the fox.

Birdnuts

Western Pomise wrote: »

Would not condone this but know some farmers leave out dead lambs that might have been treated with an appetiser for the fox.

That type of destructive practice is now illegal thankfully as it is highly dangerous to non-target species, working dogs etc.

Birdnuts

Dickie10 wrote: »

sorry don't get u , oh wait just putting it through now ,... oh yes perhaps don't think be a good conducter though unless soaking wer, but I like your thinking, a bit like me with the dogs ha

Actually if you have a good electric fencer its probably the most reliable thing for keeping foxes and dogs out of lambing paddocks - no need to bother messin with dead lambs etc,. I know from my own dogs that they hate nothing more than coming in contact with the fencer.

Conmaicne Mara

Birdnuts wrote: »

Actually if you have a good electric fencer its probably the most reliable thing for keeping foxes and dogs out of lambing paddocks - no need to bother messin with dead lambs etc,. I know from my own dogs that they hate nothing more than coming in contact with the fencer.

I know, I was wondering would it put that particular fox off taking lambs though, if he got a good zap when he'd sink in the teeth. Fencing off fields is expensive if it's not already done. Most here would have walls and/or sheep wire up already.

Green farmer

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

I know, I was wondering would it put that particular fox off taking lambs though, if he got a good zap when he'd sink in the teeth. Fencing off fields is expensive if it's not already done. Most here would have walls and/or sheep wire up already.

Easier said then done in reality. I had a field well fenced or so I thought, then saw a jack Russell run straight through the holes in the sheep wire. Lead me to think how long the same fence would deter a fox

Birdnuts

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

I know, I was wondering would it put that particular fox off taking lambs though, if he got a good zap when he'd sink in the teeth. Fencing off fields is expensive if it's not already done. Most here would have walls and/or sheep wire up already.

Hard to know, it might make him more fond of live lambs then dead ones - my opinion is that if you already have a fencer your as well to deploy it in a conventional way in your lambing paddocks. I remember getting a load of twine and those plastic white stakes with the fencer a few years ago. I don't remember the exact price but it was very reasonable and I still use them in the paddocks. I find its a very versatile way of managing grazing as well as keeping out undesirable visitors. I appreciate that other people may have different lambing systems but that is my experience. If your using sheep wire and stakes you can get those fencer hooks which you can simply hammer into your existing stakes and run the electric wire on the top and bottom.

Birdnuts

Green farmer wrote: »

Easier said then done in reality. I had a field well fenced or so I thought, then saw a jack Russell run straight through the holes in the sheep wire. Lead me to think how long the same fence would deter a fox

What fencer do you use GF?? - I have a Cheeta which I find pretty good. Its important to make sure its not been shorted by vegetation etc which appears to be the main reason for failure in my experience

J.O. Farmer

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

Here's a question, and ye'll see right away where I'm going with this. But, could a dead lamb carcass be hung from an electric fence?

I was once lifting a hogget across the electric fence and I didn't quite clear it. I know that because I felt it. I think it won't matter that the lamb is dead.

Green farmer

Birdnuts wrote: »

What fencer do you use GF?? - I have a Cheeta which I find pretty good. Its important to make sure its not been shorted by vegetation etc which appears to be the main reason for failure in my experience

Sorry birdnuts, I don't use electric fence anymore. Just the green 3ft sheep wire, well strained with gripples. Gave up on electric fences a few years ago, got tired of strimming under them and grass earthing them. Done right it's a lifetime job for sheep but apparently not great at stopping foxes, if they can get through the squares as easily as jack Russell

arctictree

At what age do ye lads think lambs are safe from the fox?

I have a few 3 day old lambs out in the field behind the house which backs onto forestry. Since they tend to sleep at the forest boundary it would seem like a perfect opportunity for Mr Fox...

paddysdream

arctictree wrote: »

At what age do ye lads think lambs are safe from the fox?

I have a few 3 day old lambs out in the field behind the house which backs onto forestry. Since they tend to sleep at the forest boundary it would seem like a perfect opportunity for Mr Fox...

Know you don't want to hear this but;

Had lambs attacked by foxes last year in a field at the back of the shed.This was in April and they were mostly hogget's with lambs ranging from a week to a month old.No lambs were taken but 6 or 7 were bitten,on both the neck and the back leg's.Wouldn't have believed it only saw it myself.There were 4 fox cubs plus a dog fox and a vixen.

They came back a few nights in a row until I got to shoot 4 of them.Got the last ones(I hope) in the summer.


Thought at first on seeing them that it was a dog attack as the lambs were well mauled but the ewes were not as nervous or disturbed as if dogs were at them.

Have a few photo's of the lambs and can upload them tonight to show you their size on the morning they were attacked.Only reason none were taken I think is that they were a little too big to chop down straight away.

Conmaicne Mara

arctictree wrote: »

At what age do ye lads think lambs are safe from the fox?

I have a few 3 day old lambs out in the field behind the house which backs onto forestry. Since they tend to sleep at the forest boundary it would seem like a perfect opportunity for Mr Fox...

Stockholm tar on the back of the neck.

Last Spring I had half of my twins taken, at birth. All the lambs I actually got to see I put stockholm tar on the back of the neck and none were taken, well possibly one but I am not sure on that lamb. When I consider how many of the twins were killed compared to practically none of the singles, there has to be something in it. Plus it's not harmful to the lamb like some things used to be put on them, creosote for example.

I will be doing it again this year, due to start lambing in a couple of days here, not a fox shot all year,

Green farmer

paddysdream wrote: »

Know you don't want to hear this but;

Had lambs attacked by foxes last year in a field at the back of the shed.This was in April and they were mostly hogget's with lambs ranging from a week to a month old.No lambs were taken but 6 or 7 were bitten,on both the neck and the back leg's.Wouldn't have believed it only saw it myself.There were 4 fox cubs plus a dog fox and a vixen.

They came back a few nights in a row until I got to shoot 4 of them.Got the last ones(I hope) in the summer.


Thought at first on seeing them that it was a dog attack as the lambs were well mauled but the ewes were not as nervous or disturbed as if dogs were at them.

Have a few photo's of the lambs and can upload them tonight to show you their size on the morning they were attacked.Only reason none were taken I think is that they were a little too big to chop down straight away.

To a non sheep farmer, people think we're exaggerating just how much damage the fox could do, if left unchecked, but a fox is really as destructive as we're telling people. I've don't give them an inch, it's the only way when dealing with a fox .
Separately I'm putting in my ewes this evening. Their due on the 28th but some look as they might go early. I don't know if it's coincidence but 4 or 5 magpies are in the field keeping a interested eye on my ewes ??? Loitering with intend ????

Birdnuts

Green farmer wrote: »

.
Separately I'm putting in my ewes this evening. Their due on the 28th but some look as they might go early. I don't know if it's coincidence but 4 or 5 magpies are in the field keeping a interested eye on my ewes ??? Loitering with intend ????

My Larsen trap has been out since the start of the month as I'm due to start lambing the end of this week. Got 5 of the little feckers so far:D

Conmaicne Mara

Birdnuts wrote: »

My Larsen trap has been out since the start of the month as I'm due to start lambing the end of this week. Got 5 of the little feckers so far:D

Just put out my larsen mate this afternoon, but it's greycrows I'm after. Shot a magpie with the .223 the last morning, was looking for a fox but that lad turned up instead, reckon he's the culprit who's been sh#tting in the feed trough.

paddysdream

As promised a few pics of lambs attacked by foxes.This was in April 2013 and you can see from the pics. what size they were.

arctictree

paddysdream wrote: »

As promised a few pics of lambs attacked by foxes.This was in April 2013 and you can see from the pics. what size they were.

Wow - they are big healthy lambs. Feck all you can do about that I suppose??

MayoAreMagic

Conmaicne Mara
I find foxes tend to pick off twin lambs anyway. In fact in my experience, 90% of my lambs lost to a fox were twins. They probably wander from the mothers a little more easily in the early days and do more bleating, which brings them to the foxes attention. So it could just be that the twins were the easy target and it might have nothing to do with the tar... I have heard of other people using it also though I must admit. Maybe try it on the twin lambs and let us know how it works out.

Also, the larsen trap, is it one you bought (and if so are they expensive) or one you made yourself?
Thanks.

reilig

paddysdream wrote: »

As promised a few pics of lambs attacked by foxes.This was in April 2013 and you can see from the pics. what size they were.

Are you sure it was a fox?

I've never seen or heard of a fox attacking lambs that big - lambs would get away from them, and just be too cumbersome for the fox??

However, a mumber of years ago, we had lambs attacked by a mink/pinemartin with similar visuals to the pictures that you have posted above?

paddysdream

reilig wrote: »

Are you sure it was a fox?

I've never seen or heard of a fox attacking lambs that big - lambs would get away from them, and just be too cumbersome for the fox??

However, a mumber of years ago, we had lambs attacked by a mink/pinemartin with similar visuals to the pictures that you have posted above?

100% certain.Assumed at first it was a dog but checked them that night and the foxes were at them again.Shot 1 the first night and even after that they returned for a few nights until 4 were shot.After that as soon as a light was put on them they scampered.Left them alone and a friend got the vixen and last cub during the summer.

No need to even question when they would come as it was like clockwork they appeared every night between 11 and 12.All I had to do was wait in the one spot and try to drop them as soon as got the light on them.

To be honest wouldn't believe it myself if someone told me!!