Private Pilots Licence - Is It Really That Expensive?!

..Brian..

So I've been looking into getting a private pilots license recently as it's something I've always thought I would enjoy. I plan to do an introductory flying lesson soon to see if it's something I actually enjoy but I have a feeling it will be.

Following a bit of research, I've hit my first stumbling block, the cost! Holy moly, is it really that expensive to get your PPL?! My local club (Waterford Aero Club) quotes their cheapest plane to cost €130 per hour and instructor fees being €50 per hour. My research indicates a requirement of a minimum 45 hours flight time logged, with at least 10 hours solo. Does this really mean, based on the above costs, a grand total of €7,600!

Surely my maths are wrong somewhere and someone is going to point out a glaring error and make all right?!

How do people afford this? Is it just rich people that get PPLs? How do ordinary joe soaps get a look in? Do I get lesson a month and spend 3 or 4 years at it? Again everything I have read indicates this is not the ideal as I will spend more time going over stuff I have forgotten from the previous lesson!

Or do people get a loan and pay that off over 3 or 4 years and try get all the lessons and exams done in 6 or 8 months or whatever?

EI-DOR

Welcome to the club Brian. My Helicopter PPL cost £12K Sterling in Florida. I had money saved and took a small loan out to cover the rest. Paid it off and done some flying here and there whenever the wallet allowed. Haven't done jack all in a while though.

€7K is actually cheap for a Fixed Wing PPL. Doing an hour a month will actually cost you more money. It could run over €10K if you drag it out. If I was you I would try and save up the money instead of being stuck with a loan. Nothing cheap in this game!

ronnie3585

It will cost you a lot more than €7,600. Firstly, not a lot of SPLs are ready for a flight test at 45 hours - your own skill level will determine this. There are some SPLs who haven't soloed at 45 hours. You also need to budget for books, equipment, ground school, PPL exams and on the day of your flight test you'll spend the guts of a grand on the test itself and the aircraft hire. You should budget at least €10k minimum.

Flying is an expensive hobby. I spent a little over two years working towards mine so that made it more manageable, but the time immeditely preceeding your flight test will bleed you financially. It's a fantastic hobby and I've no regrets getting the PPL, but you need to be very aware of the costs, it's the determinig factor for most folk.

Preset No.3

Ive never seen anyone finish everything with the minimum hours!

..Brian..

Budget €10k? Dang ... that's ... prohibitive! Better start saving!

Are the PPL requirements the same all over the world? I may end up living in Slovakia in coming years (although that could be so far off that saving is a viable alternative!), I wonder if it would be as expensive there and would I come out as qualified?

ronnie3585

Slovakia is an EASA Member State so I assume the PPL requirement are the same as here. The fuel may well be cheaper there, so that would reduce you spend.

Stella Virgo

..Brian.. wrote: »

Budget €10k? Dang ... that's ... prohibitive! Better start saving!

Are the PPL requirements the same all over the world? I may end up living in Slovakia in coming years (although that could be so far off that saving is a viable alternative!), I wonder if it would be as expensive there and would I come out as qualified?

everything is relative......some idiots like to blow 20-30 grand on a car, which will be a worthless pile of scrap in ten years. your licence may seem expensive but you will have it for life so dont rule it out. it may turn out to be the best 10 grand you ever spent....

Preset No.3

..Brian.. wrote: »

Following a bit of research, I've hit my first stumbling block, the cost!

Had to re read that again. What were you expecting? Training to fly a complex machine in itself costs a lot of money. IF, you want to go all the way to commercial, then the costs would be around €125,000 with no guarantee of a job or a starting salary of around €26k a year!

..Brian..

I don't know what I was expecting, hence beginning to research it. While I had anticipated it not being cheap, I was thinking more 2 or 3k. I certainly didn't expect €10k just to get the license!

And €125k plus to take it all the way to commercial? How does anyone afford it? If you can afford it, surely you don't need a CPL to make a living!

lomb

Stella Virgo wrote: »

everything is relative......some idiots like to blow 20-30 grand on a car, which will be a worthless pile of scrap in ten years. your licence may seem expensive but you will have it for life so dont rule it out. it may turn out to be the best 10 grand you ever spent....

This^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

At the end of the day how can car manufactures sell cars for 20-50k easily?How do houses which are basically just a pile of bricks sell for 150k+? The American Indians laughed at the white man paying for land saying that it was something that was given freely.
That's just the way it is. Its all basically worthless but its horses for courses. It would probably be the best 10k you could spend if you have an interest in it.
You could start a small home business of some sort and make the money for it that way possibly if you don't earn enough to afford it.

lomb

..Brian.. wrote: »

While I had anticipated it not being cheap, I was thinking more 2 or 3k.

And €125k plus to take it all the way to commercial? How does anyone afford it? If you can afford it, surely you don't need a CPL to make a living!

Forget it for 2 or 3k... Anywhere humans sell something that's non standard like food you are going to pay. There are a lot of people on the take, for starters an aircraft costs a minimum of 100k. So that's 15k a year lost in depreciation and finance. Probably around 40 an hour for that. Then theres the fuel burn a minimum of 35 euros an hour. The instructor is 50e an hour as they need to eat and he/she going to be sitting around a lot drinking coffee as the weather is crap and there aren't too many people who want to pay to fly. Essentially you are paying them for that.
Then there is the insurer who wants to get paid so in the unlikely event the worst happens he might have to pay out a million or two when the wives show up of the deceased. If something really bad happened and a light aircraft took out a fully loaded 747 the payout would be around 1 million per passenger and 200 million for the hull so around 750 million dollars.
Then there are the aircraft maintainance and parts . That's a whole other area but you wont get much change out of 5 k a year. Then the engines need to be replaced every 2000 hours or so that's 20k for that.
Sorry for the tongue in cheek but that's why it is what it is.

Preset No.3

My PPL(H) cost me €15k! That was cheap as I did it in the UK in a Robbie 44.

The sad part, I haven't been able to afford to keep my minimum hours needed to maintain my license.

Very expensive hobby.

EI-DOR

Sorry to hear that Preset. The 44 is a lovely machine to fly. I done mine on the 22 in Florida. Started flying the S300 after though and don't think I could step foot in the 22 again. Haven't done nothing in over a year though and going to Canada now shortly hopefully.

I was gonna say why don't you get a rating on the 22 or 300 and fly it? I don't see much call for the 44 unless you plan on taking 3 pax up with you on every flight. Though once you do the license on the 44 it would be very hard to go down to the smaller and less powerful machine!

owenc

..Brian.. wrote: »

So I've been looking into getting a private pilots license recently as it's something I've always thought I would enjoy. I plan to do an introductory flying lesson soon to see if it's something I actually enjoy but I have a feeling it will be.

Following a bit of research, I've hit my first stumbling block, the cost! Holy moly, is it really that expensive to get your PPL?! My local club (Waterford Aero Club) quotes their cheapest plane to cost €130 per hour and instructor fees being €50 per hour. My research indicates a requirement of a minimum 45 hours flight time logged, with at least 10 hours solo. Does this really mean, based on the above costs, a grand total of €7,600!

Surely my maths are wrong somewhere and someone is going to point out a glaring error and make all right?!

How do people afford this? Is it just rich people that get PPLs? How do ordinary joe soaps get a look in? Do I get lesson a month and spend 3 or 4 years at it? Again everything I have read indicates this is not the ideal as I will spend more time going over stuff I have forgotten from the previous lesson!

Or do people get a loan and pay that off over 3 or 4 years and try get all the lessons and exams done in 6 or 8 months or whatever?

Thats very cheap and actually not a lot of money to be honest.

owenc

Stella Virgo wrote: »

everything is relative......some idiots like to blow 20-30 grand on a car, which will be a worthless pile of scrap in ten years. your licence may seem expensive but you will have it for life so dont rule it out. it may turn out to be the best 10 grand you ever spent....

I'm saving up and i'm doing mines next year. I am not going to pay money for a car.

This is better. My dad has his own plane nearly finished so I will fly in that and he reckons it will be under £5,000.

owenc

Preset No.3 wrote: »

My PPL(H) cost me €15k! That was cheap as I did it in the UK in a Robbie 44.

The sad part, I haven't been able to afford to keep my minimum hours needed to maintain my license.

Very expensive hobby.

I think I will have a nervous breakdown if I have to pay that by myself.

I can't see it ever coming to that.

Cessna_Pilot

I would think 12k would be closer to the mark cost wise doing a PPL in Ireland.

shedweller

Can i just say....
That you dont know expenses till you've had kids. This talk of 10k here and 20k there is laughable. I have spent about 40k in the past 3 years on childcare alone. Stew on that for a moment. My eyes are watering at the thought of it.
Given how much i love aviation and how little (zero) flight im doing, well, you can imagine the bitterness.
So quit the crying.
Get on with it.

EI-DOR

I think I will have a nervous breakdown if I have to pay that by myself.

I can't see it ever coming to that.

Different ball game there Owen with Helicopters. Far more expensive than Fixed wing.

A PPL (H) over at Enniskillen with Unique Helicopters on the R22 will cost £13,528 at a 45 Hour block.

With the R44 it will cost £23,000 at 45 hour block. Preset actually got lucky getting his done for 15K on the 44!

shedweller

EI-DOR wrote: »

Different ball game there Owen with Helicopters. Far more expensive than Fixed wing.

A PPL (H) over at Enniskillen with Unique Helicopters on the R22 will cost £13,528 at a 45 Hour block.

With the R44 it will cost £23,000 at 45 hour block. Preset actually got lucky getting his done for 15K on the 44!

Read my post. Thats peanuts.

EI-DOR

Shed, I was replying to Owens post, not you. What you spend on childcare is your own business!

owenc

shedweller wrote: »

Can i just say....
That you dont know expenses till you've had kids. This talk of 10k here and 20k there is laughable. I have spent about 40k in the past 3 years on childcare alone. Stew on that for a moment. My eyes are watering at the thought of it.
Given how much i love aviation and how little (zero) flight im doing, well, you can imagine the bitterness.
So quit the crying.
Get on with it.

Oh I will.

owenc

EI-DOR wrote: »

Different ball game there Owen with Helicopters. Far more expensive than Fixed wing.

A PPL (H) over at Enniskillen with Unique Helicopters on the R22 will cost £13,528 at a 45 Hour block.

With the R44 it will cost £23,000 at 45 hour block. Preset actually got lucky getting his done for 15K on the 44!

Yes I know my dad did it in Florida and dropped out because they were ripping him off.

EI-DOR

Yes I know my dad did it in Florida and dropped out because they were ripping him off.

Did he get it finished elsewhere?

owenc

No he just decided to do his ppl.

Now hes building a vans plane

Side Show Bob

Did my PPL (H) in 1999 - 2000 finished out being tested in a H300
42.3 hrs

30.3 hrs @ €275 (H269)
15hrs @ $210 (H269)
Plus ground school €400
Type specific course €100
Plus - IAA Exames (x2), IAA Test flight test,

EI-DOR

Nice. You still flying the 300 Side show?

Side Show Bob

EI-DOR wrote: »

Nice. You still flying the 300 Side show?

Lost that rating long ago

206, 206L, 407, now but won't be able to maintain ratings much longer!!

Did a 109 rating in 2009 but only got 5 hours on it

EI-DOR

Ah very nice. You're in with a Company at the min then I presume!

Side Show Bob

EI-DOR wrote: »

Ah very nice. You're in with a Company at the min then I presume!

unfortunately not just now, but hope to be back soon!!

EI-DOR

Hope you get back in them Bells soon then. I would be ecstatic flying the 206 never mind the power of a 407 :eek:!

Side Show Bob

EI-DOR wrote: »

Hope you get back in them Bells soon then. I would be ecstatic flying the 206 never mind the power of a 407 :eek:!

Recently flew the 407 GX doing my LPC in the UK, I have to get back alright but its going to be in another country

logie101

..Brian.. wrote: »

So I've been looking into getting a private pilots license recently as it's something I've always thought I would enjoy. I plan to do an introductory flying lesson soon to see if it's something I actually enjoy but I have a feeling it will be.

Following a bit of research, I've hit my first stumbling block, the cost! Holy moly, is it really that expensive to get your PPL?! My local club (Waterford Aero Club) quotes their cheapest plane to cost €130 per hour and instructor fees being €50 per hour. My research indicates a requirement of a minimum 45 hours flight time logged, with at least 10 hours solo. Does this really mean, based on the above costs, a grand total of €7,600!

Surely my maths are wrong somewhere and someone is going to point out a glaring error and make all right?!

How do people afford this? Is it just rich people that get PPLs? How do ordinary joe soaps get a look in? Do I get lesson a month and spend 3 or 4 years at it? Again everything I have read indicates this is not the ideal as I will spend more time going over stuff I have forgotten from the previous lesson!

Or do people get a loan and pay that off over 3 or 4 years and try get all the lessons and exams done in 6 or 8 months or whatever?

Waterford is one of the cheaper places to learn to fly in the country. Look at the prices of some of the schools in Weston.

You should also consider a microlight license.

Preset No.3

EI-DOR wrote: »

I was gonna say why don't you get a rating on the 22 or 300 and fly it?

I'm 6'6"

I could get 1 leg into a 22! 😉

EI-DOR

Ah, the height didn't even occur to me. Hope you get back up soon!

folbotcar

As Logie says, you should consider microlights. The costs are a lot more manageable. Even ownership of a microlight is well within the range of someone with an average income.

But flying is, was and always will be expensive. There's no getting away from it.

On the other hand I don't think you should be put off by the costs particularly when flying with a club. Unless you're in a real hurry you can learn to fly over a couple of years, spreading the cost and making it less painful. That's how I learned to fly. When I started an hour's flying was half my weekly wage. I really couldn't afford it. But it didn't stop me.
It took a long time though, years in fact.

Learning to fly is enjoyable in itself. Rather than focussing on getting the PPL. Concentrate initially on going solo. Then work on the next step. At the end of the day flying is supposed to be fun.

Another point to remember that generally you rarely fly for an hour particularly in the early stages of training. 45 minutes would be common. So again the cost per lesson is less making it easier to afford.

Don't allow the cost to put you off. I never thought about the overall cost. To this day I couldn't tell you how much I spent on becoming a pilot. I don't want to know. What I do know is that enjoyed most of it and in any case I've made it all back. Not really an option for a PPL it must be said. The irony is that if I wasn't paid to fly I couldn't afford it!

Just join the club and start taking lessons. Don't think of the cost. Just go for it.

hughie1989

Is there much chance of employment with a PPL? Are any of you posters here professional pilots? Is there much work in Ireland for pilots without going to full commercial level?

Irish Steve

hughie1989 wrote: »

Is there much chance of employment with a PPL? Are any of you posters here professional pilots? Is there much work in Ireland for pilots without going to full commercial level?

There's NO work without a professional licence, it's not legal to fly for reward on a PPL, You can hour build as an instructor, or doing parachute dropping, but getting paid for it won't be part of that deal. Unfortunately, it IS that cut and dried.

Stovepipe

Once you get your PPL, you can keep current in a Permit aircraft or go and convert to microlights and fly them, to keep costs down.You'll be surprised how much cheaper it is than cl;ub flying out of airports and a whole lot more fun.

smurfjed

Is there much chance of employment with a PPL?

I'm going to show my age here, but how many of the following options still exist in ireland?

1: Banner Towing?
2: Dropping Skydivers (P'town & Clonbulogue?)
3: Aerial Photography?
4: Glider towing?
5: Fish flights?

In my era, a PPL could build hours doing any or all of the above

hughie1989

Thanks for the info. So what is the minimum ones needs in order to be able to gain any sort of employment as a pilot?

smurfjed wrote: »

I'm going to show my age here, but how many of the following options still exist in ireland?

1: Banner Towing?
2: Dropping Skydivers (P'town & Clonbulogue?)
3: Aerial Photography?
4: Glider towing?
5: Fish flights?

In my era, a PPL could build hours doing any or all of the above

I didn't even realise there was this many options. What are the chances of being able to build hours via one of these options? Is it a case of who you know, not what you know?

And once you have so many hours done, what are the options then?

I want to do the PPL so I am just looking for info!

Irish Steve

As I understand it, Aerial photography, and fish flights both now come into the category of Aerial work, which is not permissible with a PPL.

I think Dropping skydivers is OK, as long as the Pilot is not being paid for "work", and the same I think is true for glider towing.

I have to admit to not knowing about banner towing.

The one possible exception to this, and it's a grey area, is if a PPL is in the right hand seat of an aircraft that does not require multiple licensed crew, but even then, the issue of "paid" raises it's head. There are very few aircraft now that do no require 2 crew for commercial operations. At one time, the Twin Otter could be flown single crew, but I think that may have changed. When it was single crew, the airlines were also allowed to put passengers into the Right hand seat,

Long time ago now, I did a passenger flight in the RHS of one from Exeter to Gatwick, superb experience, as the captain gave me the spare headset, so I was a lot more in the loop than most would have been, We could have landed across the runway at Gatwick, as it was we came off the runway on what would for everyone else have been the entry point for departure, having flown a very non standard approach pattern compared to the normal jet arrival. Surreal!

Irish Steve

There are 2 levels of commercial licence, the CPL, which may or may not also include an instrument rating, and then for the larger aircraft, the ATPL, Airline Transport Pilot's licence.

I'm out of the loop now on the hours requirements, back in the day, it was 200 Hrs for a CPL, and 1500 for the ATPL, the exams were different, (more for the ATPL), and the ATPL didn't exist without an instrument rating, the exams could be done earlier, and that then enabled the issue of a frozen ATPL, which allowed operation commercially, but not on large aircraft.

A large aircraft could be flown as P2 on a CPL, but to command the ATPL is required, which in these days of multi crew operation, the P2 can and does become the pilot flying, it's just the command side of things that requires the ATPL.

To complicate the issue, (and I am very much not in this loop) there is now also a multi crew aircraft licence, which ONLY allows the holder to fly as crew of an aircraft that has to be operated by a multi person crew, and solo flight in something like a Cessna 182 is not allowed with this new licence.

Stovepipe

In Ireland, getting a third-level job like paradropping or banner towing requires the intensive application of the Old Pals Act. Paradropping requires a CPL, in effect, as you won't get insured as a PPL on the drop aircraft unless you are one of the older legacy pilots.Glider towing is done by those who have a PPL (G) or at the very least, have solo time on gliders as well as a PPL (A) and you simply won't get it without glider experience and the Irish gliding market is tiny.Any flying job for which you get paid requires a CPL, end of.You have to build up a good reputation and experience and often, the only way to do it is to get a CPL-A, get an instructor's rating and try and get work that way.The UK offers more chances but much more competition.

folbotcar

smurfjed wrote: »

I'm going to show my age here, but how many of the following options still exist in ireland?

1: Banner Towing?
2: Dropping Skydivers (P'town & Clonbulogue?)
3: Aerial Photography?
4: Glider towing?
5: Fish flights?

In my era, a PPL could build hours doing any or all of the above

Banner towing - CPL only and as it's only done by the NFC you'll have to work for them AND be a taildragger pilot.

Skydivers - Three operators right now, IPC in Clonbulloge, Skydive Ireland in Kilkenny and Tandem Skydive in Abbeyshrule. Of the three only Skydive Ireland have occasional opportunities for pilots. They operate six days a week. CPL only. All three can afford to be exceptionally choosy. I think there has been a rule change that allows PPLs to fly skydivers but only in what are strictly clubs. Of the three only the IPC are a club and if you think they'd let a 200 hour PPL fly their Porter then you're dreaming!

Aerial Photography - As it's aerial work you need that approval and a CPL. Having said that, I regularly see aerial shots of land in the property sections of papers. I have a funny feeling not all are taken by legitimate aerial work operators.

Glider Towing - I don't know but with only one club and a taildragger work out your chances.

Fish Flights - Does anyone even do that anymore? But aerial work, CPL only.

Oh yes Smurjed, you really are showing your age. Punchestown? I think they finished up back in the nineties!

Stovepipe

I tried to get in at IPC and got a few flights up but eventually got nowhere. What I saw a lot of was fresh CPLs coming up looking for a start, thinking they'd slide right in.Flown off grass? No.Ever operated independently without an instructor? No.Ever washed an aircraft? No.Want to give up every weekend for no pay to join the queue? No.Ever carried more than one pax? No.Ever ferried an aircraft? No.Ever done legal minor maintenance on an aircraft? No......not a hope, sorry.
Ireland is a very small market and realistically, unless you get into a club or a school as an instructor or are lucky enough to have a Cub or Jodel at hand, then building hours is very expensive.

Silvera

..Brian.. wrote: »

I don't know what I was expecting, hence beginning to research it. While I had anticipated it not being cheap, I was thinking more 2 or 3k. I certainly didn't expect €10k just to get the license!

Interesting thread! I have a vague notion of going for my Helicopter PPL at some point in the future.

OP, to put it in perspective - it cost me €3k to get my two truck licences - rigid and articulated (I passed both first time - starting from scratch - otherwise it would have cost even more). You would have to expect a PPL to cost way more than that!

..Brian..

Silvera wrote: »

Interesting thread! I have a vague notion of going for my Helicopter PPL at some point in the future.

OP, to put it in perspective - it cost me €3k to get my two truck licences - rigid and articulated (I passed both first time - starting from scratch - otherwise it would have cost even more). You would have to expect a PPL to cost way more than that!

Coincidentally I just got my Category D (bus & coach) licence last month. Also starting from scratch and also costing just shy of €3k. I think it's safe to say I severely underestimated to cost at the beginning!

folbotcar

To put it in further perspective. A truck licence allows you to earn a living as a truck driver. To get a licence that allows you to work as a pilot will set you back between 70 - 100k.

Also helicopter PPL is probably twice the cost of a fixed wing licence.