cattle, and number of movements

Farmer Pudsey

McLivestock wrote: »

Yous are all wrong. Movement 1 is herd of origin to marts herd no. Movement 2 is from mart herd no to new owner or back to farm of origin. Same with moving cattle to shows ( I have a cow with 54 movements but 2 owners).

TBH we are talking about movements that effect QA bonus at time of slaughter. It is becoming a big factor in beef profitability. It is now 12c/kg however in the north cattle with over 4 QA movements were unsaleable a few weeks ago. If QA was worth 20-30c/kg this would be equivlent to 70-110 euro on a 350 kg carcass. Even at 12c/kg it is worth 42 euro.

nhg

Just when we are on the topic of Mart Information Monitor showing number of movements - it should also show the exact breed of the animal that's on the animals card as well (haven't been at mart in aprox 6 months so maybe it does now)

Sheep breeder

As for dealer changing the movement of a calf in the mart the next day that is incorrect,all marts are live on the cmms on the day and before an animal leaves the mart it has to move in to a valid herd number and this has to be the dealers number for to comply with his brass plate, and now a dealer must work on a nbas 31 for movement the same permit as a farmer,as the dealer permit is no longer permitted to be used as all animals have to get prior approval before movement of animals to make sure they are in test or in his herd,
The animal to mart and home is still one movement as the QA uses the cmms to count movements it would be impossible for somebody in a factory to sit at a computer and start to decide which is a movement and which is not a movement.

Sheep breeder

As for dealer changing the movement of a calf in the mart the next day that is incorrect,all marts are live on the cmms on the day and before an animal leaves the mart it has to move in to a valid herd number and this has to be the dealers number for to comply with his brass plate, and now a dealer must work on a nbas 31 for movement the same permit as a farmer,as the dealer permit is no longer permitted to be used as all animals have to get prior approval before movement of animals to make sure they are in test or in his herd,
The animal to mart and home is still one movement as the QA uses the cmms to count movements it would be impossible for somebody in a factory to sit at a computer and start to decide which is a movement and which is not a movement.

Sheep breeder

As for dealer changing the movement of a calf in the mart the next day that is incorrect,all marts are live on the cmms on the day and before an animal leaves the mart it has to move in to a valid herd number and this has to be the dealers number for to comply with his brass plate, and now a dealer must work on a nbas 31 for movement the same permit as a farmer,as the dealer permit is no longer permitted to be used as all animals have to get prior approval before movement of animals to make sure they are in test or in his herd,
The animal to mart and home is still one movement as the QA uses the cmms to count movements it would be impossible for somebody in a factory to sit at a computer and start to decide which is a movement and which is not a movement.

P_Cash

Fyi

my mart shows no of owners. . Keeps it friggin simple. . Then shows me days last held. . That way you can see when the animal last moved. . If at all.

Thankfully the breed appeared on the board 3 yrs ago. .

Nice digital board we have. . When its broken i go home. .

farmernewbie

Getting a dealer to buy a few for me and put them in my herd no. just noticed one of them has 4 movements but I am only the 2nd owner. Seems farmer brought him to mart movement 1, didn't sell so brought him home counted as movement 2.

Brought him to mart again movement 3, dealer buys him with my herd no now its movement no 4 on agfood.ie.

It's a weanling, hope to sell as a store next December. How will it appear on mart board? Will it appear as movement no 5 and cause me problems?

O2b

farmernewbie wrote: »

Getting a dealer to buy a few for me and put them in my herd no. just noticed one of them has 4 movements but I am only the 2nd owner. Seems farmer brought him to mart movement 1, didn't sell so brought him home counted as movement 2.

Brought him to mart again movement 3, dealer buys him with my herd no now its movement no 4 on agfood.ie.

It's a weanling, hope to sell as a store next December. How will it appear on mart board? Will it appear as movement no 5 and cause me problems?

Yes will appear as movement 5. Stay in box when selling at mart and tell auctioneer to mention its only had 2 owners is ur best bet.

farmernewbie

O2b wrote: »

Yes will appear as movement 5. Stay in box when selling at mart and tell auctioneer to mention its only had 2 owners is ur best bet.

Jesus that seems like a stupid system, surely the mart shouldn't count as a movement unless sold. Surely the system should see 2 owners and that should appear.

Farmer Pudsey

farmernewbie wrote: »

Getting a dealer to buy a few for me and put them in my herd no. just noticed one of them has 4 movements but I am only the 2nd owner. Seems farmer brought him to mart movement 1, didn't sell so brought him home counted as movement 2.

Brought him to mart again movement 3, dealer buys him with my herd no now its movement no 4 on agfood.ie.

It's a weanling, hope to sell as a store next December. How will it appear on mart board? Will it appear as movement no 5 and cause me problems?

You should only appear as two movements if that is so. Marts taht I go to only show no of movements that effect QA.

farmernewbie

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

You should only appear as two movements if that is so. Marts taht I go to only show no of movements that effect QA.

Ok should be ok so. It's just down as 4 movements on agfood.

Farmer Pudsey

farmernewbie wrote: »

Ok should be ok so. It's just down as 4 movements on agfood.

ignore movements in and out of marts owners count only

farmernewbie

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

ignore movements in and out of marts owners count only

Thanks just keep hearing about keep the number of movements down. Thats great news as I'm only the 2nd owner so.

O2b

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

You should only appear as two movements if that is so. Marts taht I go to only show no of movements that effect QA.

Ive heard it in marts before, "still ok for qa" with 6/7 movements. Remembered reading in the farmers journal late last year that all marts go from departments aims system which includes all movements.

I pulled out the article i had it still and sure enough thats what it says.. "In all marts, the information displayed is taken directly from the departments aims system" From the 5th October 13 Farmers Journal. Now whether the article is correct or not....as they'd say if its a lie im telling ya, twas a lie i was told!

farmernewbie

O2b wrote: »

Ive heard it in marts before, "still ok for qa" with 6/7 movements. Remembered reading in the farmers journal late last year that all marts go from departments aims system which includes all movements.

I pulled out the article i had it still and sure enough thats what it says.. "In all marts, the information displayed is taken directly from the departments aims system" From the 5th October 13 Farmers Journal. Now whether the article is correct or not....as they'd say if its a lie im telling ya, twas a lie i was told!

Hopefully, just seen the lad buying for me has bought one with 3 movements. All in two weeks, farmera to mart, mart to farmerb and farmerb to my dealer who put him straight into my herd no.

Worried why farmerb is after only holding him for a week and my dealer has bought him in a private deal.

Kovu

Sheep breeder wrote: »

As for dealer changing the movement of a calf in the mart the next day that is incorrect,all marts are live on the cmms on the day and before an animal leaves the mart it has to move in to a valid herd number and this has to be the dealers number for to comply with his brass plate, and now a dealer must work on a nbas 31 for movement the same permit as a farmer,as the dealer permit is no longer permitted to be used as all animals have to get prior approval before movement of animals to make sure they are in test or in his herd,
The animal to mart and home is still one movement as the QA uses the cmms to count movements it would be impossible for somebody in a factory to sit at a computer and start to decide which is a movement and which is not a movement.

Not true, marts are live on the day yes, but the sale will not close untilo the following afternoon/evening to allow time for the dealers/farmers buying to change their minds or to find a customer for an animal.

Animal to mart and home is not counted for the QA.
The movements have to be counted one by one at the factory if you are QA herd! The system will flag the animal as having a higher number of movements than allowed for QA, the tag is then brought up and if some of those movements are mart->home then that movement is not counted.

I counted animals on it that had 17/18 movements but only 3 herd number changes which is the important part.
A mart does not hold a herd number unless they use it for export testing. It has an allotted number eg- E291, E112.

McLivestock

Every mart has a herd number, I've worked in enough of them to know

Sheep breeder

Mclivestock is correct the mart has an ordinary herd number for unsold animals or animals returned etc, as for the mart holding over cattle for the dealer to try sell on the next day is bulls... The mart on the fall of the hammer or the end of the sale has to complete the cmms to comply with the rules of there licence and can only operate cmms on the day of the sale and no other day as not covered to do.

Kovu

Sheep breeder wrote: »

Mclivestock is correct the mart has an ordinary herd number for unsold animals or animals returned etc, as for the mart holding over cattle for the dealer to try sell on the next day is bulls... The mart on the fall of the hammer or the end of the sale has to complete the cmms to comply with the rules of there licence and can only operate cmms on the day of the sale and no other day as not covered to do.

Ok, maybe they all have herd numbers now, I do know that it takes a bit of work with marts getting a dealer number to test for export in. Maybe I'm confusing it with that.

And yes they do hold the cattle until the next day, but in the dealer herd number. If the dealer doesn't get back to the mart before the cmms is closed then they will go into his dealer no and it will be his problem.
Very rarely does a mart send cmms straight after the sale, unless it was a small sale or they want to close it for a sale the next day. Even then with the Infoscience system they can have 2 sales or more open in tandem, just have to log into the correct days sale before putting cards etc into data system.

Sheep breeder

the marts always had a herd number and the do not have dealer plate number, a mart can have export number for animals going for export to be read and health cert paperwork done. and E number is used for this,on sale date the passports have to be scanned into cmms data base prior to sale on the mart code M +3 numbers.all marts are live on the day the same as the factory and the only difference is a saturday sale up dated on monday morning.a mart does not let the dealer buy at the ring and wait till he goes to country and sells them the next day and do the transfer to the man that buys from the dealer that was never in the mart, how can the mart do a docket in this mans name for vat, tax, etc

Kovu

Sheep breeder wrote: »

the marts always had a herd number and the do not have dealer plate number, a mart can have export number for animals going for export to be read and health cert paperwork done. and E number is used for this,on sale date the passports have to be scanned into cmms data base prior to sale on the mart code M +3 numbers.all marts are live on the day the same as the factory and the only difference is a saturday sale up dated on monday morning.a mart does not let the dealer buy at the ring and wait till he goes to country and sells them the next day and do the transfer to the man that buys from the dealer that was never in the mart, how can the mart do a docket in this mans name for vat, tax, etc

A mart has a number ending with 85__ for testing animals. A man from the north can buy cattle, once they are over the day limit sine the last test and then get them tested at the mart. However the mart needs to have specific holding areas and a shed for this. Only animals that have been tested withing the export day range can go through the E number.
Yes, a mart will do that, I've sat in the office balancing the next day after a sale enough times to know what I'm on about.
I'm not saying that the dealer will never have a buyer for cattle until the next day but lots of times I would have to get them to call me back with a herd number they didn't have or else some mans herd had been locked up etc so they had to do something else with the animals.

And yes, all marts are live, but the cmms isn't sent until the next day, all sale sheets have to be balanced against the computer, cash and a/c list to be done, all a/cs finalised etc, petty cash balancing, testing charges etc. Lots of things chop and change so they are very very rarely closed straight after the sale. Even then, there will be a few hours to play around with.

Sheep breeder

Kovu
I think the terms and conditions for running a mart is a little bit different than you are saying, the 85 number you are saying is a dealer plate number, marts have a ordinary herd number to go with the ded the mart is in, as quiet rightly stated by mclivestock,the one day limit for animal out of test should not go through the cmms sysytem in the mart as an animal and the herd selling has to pass a validation prior to sale and if the herd is restricted or the animal is out of test it can not be sold in the ring as the ahcs system picks this up and flags the mart as a discrepence. As for the office end of the mart balancing the books that is not part of a mart licence to trade under the cmms and certainly allowing a dealer to take cattle on to the country to try sell on and come back the next day and do the cmms to suit will not happen as any audit will pick this up and suspend the mart.

Kovu

Sheep breeder wrote: »

Kovu
I think the terms and conditions for running a mart is a little bit different than you are saying, the 85 number you are saying is a dealer plate number, marts have a ordinary herd number to go with the ded the mart is in, as quiet rightly stated by mclivestock,the one day limit for animal out of test should not go through the cmms sysytem in the mart as an animal and the herd selling has to pass a validation prior to sale and if the herd is restricted or the animal is out of test it can not be sold in the ring as the ahcs system picks this up and flags the mart as a discrepence. As for the office end of the mart balancing the books that is not part of a mart licence to trade under the cmms and certainly allowing a dealer to take cattle on to the country to try sell on and come back the next day and do the cmms to suit will not happen as any audit will pick this up and suspend the mart.

I know it is a dealer plate number, what it's used for is export testing. I've only ever worked in marts that provided this so maybe other marts have different numbers. I agree I may be wrong there.

I'm saying the movement is picked up as the animals tag has to go into the system, it can not be deleted out once it is on regardless of whether it's sold or not. This is why it will show as a movement, the tag has been registered as being on the premises through AIM.
But this movement won't be counted in the factory.

I've seen enough animals being sold on Friday evenings and in a sale on Saturday to know that this does go on. No sale will close as quickly as you say, chopping and changing go on almost up until the CMMS is sent the following day. I've had people buy cattle in a night mart, send the CMMS straight away (which can be done for small numbers of cattle) and take them to another sale the next day.

Have you worked in a mart office?

jt65

When I buy in a mart my son can tell from the farm software on his phone how many I have before I reach home

so cmms is updated when I collect the cards

Kovu

jt65 wrote: »

When I buy in a mart my son can tell from the farm software on his phone how many I have before I reach home

so cmms is updated when I collect the cards

Maybe it's because they know you won't change the cattle over? Or is it Kingswood you use or a similar software?

It would be interesting to ask next time what way they do it.

Sheep breeder

All marts and factories operate the cmms to approve animals on arrival on the premise and operate live, as I have said earlier marts on the fall of the harmer move the cattle to the buyer or to the dealer or the person the agent is buying for, as for working in a mart office, so far I have being in meat factories, marts, export premises on both sides import and export and office end and still at it every week.

Kovu

Sheep breeder wrote: »

All marts and factories operate the cmms to approve animals on arrival on the premise and operate live, as I have said earlier marts on the fall of the harmer move the cattle to the buyer or to the dealer or the person the agent is buying for, as for working in a mart office, so far I have being in meat factories, marts, export premises on both sides import and export and office end and still at it every week.

Well all I can say is, I've worked in 3 separate marts, with 3 different companies and no sale was ever closed until the following day after all the exports were cleared by the vets down the yard!