cattle, and number of movements

P_Cash

Someone told me to watch the number of movements/owners an animal has, mentioned that going back to the mart as the 4th owner cold be an issue, as in nobody might want him.
All about tracing cattle.

He's a well respected farmer so wanted to hear other thoughts, I assume thers some truth in the matter

mauser77

Any more than 4 movements you don't get the quality assured payment

P_Cash

mauser77 wrote: »

Any more than 4 movements you don't get the quality assured payment

Is that a factory pymt?

mauser77

Yep worth 12cent a kg

epfff

P_Cash wrote: »

Is that a factory pymt?

Yep 12 cent a kilo
roughly €40 a head
Also most factories don't want cattle without

P_Cash

Thanks lads,
I'm not a finisher, but equally important to me

TUBBY

Its more than 3 movements and you dont get the QA bonus (no more than 4 owners) AFAIK.

Farmer Pudsey

In the North factory's want cattle with greater than 4 movements. One of the Supermarkets want to bring it down to two. When buying if intending to sell again you want only two movements(third owner) if intending to take to finish you can have three movements(forth owner).

It is not just the QA if we follow the north example them cattle with greater than 4 movements at slaughter will also get a lower base. If losing 12c QA and maybe 10C lower base then on a 350 carcass it is 77 euro.

This is thecost at present for cattle over 30 months between lower base and loss of QA. Not sure if some factory's are not quoting like this at present

P_Cash

Hold on, so when I see 2 movements up, that means 3 previous owners?

Last sat I saw 1 movement, and number of days equalled the age of the animasl.

So 1 movement can't mean 2 previous owners.

So basically less movements the better

farmernewbie

So if I buy a weanling of a dealer and he has bought him in a mart I am on movement no.3 when I go the mart with him as a store? Will I struggle to sell?

P_Cash

Surely this isn't good for dealers.

I had a 12 month old bullock last year, but saw on the card that he was bought in Jan, and sold to me in march

simx

P_Cash wrote: »

Surely this isn't good for dealers.

I had a 12 month old bullock last year, but saw on the card that he was bought in Jan, and sold to me in march

Sold a few cattle in the autumn and I was the 6th owner, got ok money for them, didn't think it made such a difference, wasn't minding how many owners thy had the day I bought and only one signiture on back of cards so didn't know till I was in box selling

mickdw

simx wrote: »

Sold a few cattle in the autumn and I was the 6th owner, got ok money for them, didn't think it made such a difference, wasn't minding how many owners thy had the day I bought and only one signiture on back of cards so didn't know till I was in box selling

Does selling to a legit dealer count as a movement? I mean by the time the dealer sells it on to destination herd, is that seen as 2 movements or a single movement? If it's 2 movements, the small Castle dealers are finished.

simx

mickdw wrote: »

Does selling to a legit dealer count as a movement? I mean by the time the dealer sells it on to destination herd, is that seen as 2 movements or a single movement? If it's 2 movements, the small Castle dealers are finished.

If you are the second and sell to dealer he's the third and he's selling to fourth, don't think it'll finish lads or anything QA is not a thing that came out in the last month or anything

mickdw

simx wrote: »

If you are the second and sell to dealer he's the third and he's selling to fourth, don't think it'll finish lads or anything QA is not a thing that came out in the last month or anything

That being the case, it will push the cowboy dealers to the fore - The guys selling in the farmers name - cutting out a movement and keeping themselves out of the loop. I've seen a recurrence of this again lately.

Farmer Pudsey

farmernewbie wrote: »

So if I buy a weanling of a dealer and he has bought him in a mart I am on movement no.3 when I go the mart with him as a store? Will I struggle to sell?

Yes as only one movement after you

P_Cash wrote: »

Surely this isn't good for dealers.

I had a 12 month old bullock last year, but saw on the card that he was bought in Jan, and sold to me in march

No the dealer system is under pressure, must have been a movement in between at least.....next year is a different game Pudsey is on a winner........ he may have 50-10 euro to play around with(I hope)

simx wrote: »

Sold a few cattle in the autumn and I was the 6th owner, got ok money for them, didn't think it made such a difference, wasn't minding how many owners thy had the day I bought and only one signiture on back of cards so didn't know till I was in box selling

OK last year next year....:eek: HAVE BEEN WATCHING OWNER NO FOR ALL OF LAST YEAR.

mickdw wrote: »

Does selling to a legit dealer count as a movement? I mean by the time the dealer sells it on to destination herd, is that seen as 2 movements or a single movement? If it's 2 movements, the small Castle dealers are finished.

Yes if it goes into dealer herd it is a movement got caught last year am wary now 2-3 signitures on card 5-6 movements on cattle at 6c/kg 20 yo,yos /head at 12+penelty 100 euro.............. oops, not going to happen

simx wrote: »

If you are the second and sell to dealer he's the third and he's selling to fourth, don't think it'll finish lads or anything QA is not a thing that came out in the last month or anything

Yes I agre but there is a big difference between 21 euro and 100 euro

mickdw wrote: »

That being the case, it will push the cowboy dealers to the fore - The guys selling in the farmers name - cutting out a movement and keeping themselves out of the loop. I've seen a recurrence of this again lately.

Yes old tricks on the rise again......but buyer beware was on about this last year on another thread.

P_Cash

All the animals last had at leas one movement. If it said one on the board does it mean 1 previous owner and I'll be the second?

Saw no animals with 0 movements

Sam Kade

P_Cash wrote: »

All the animals last had at leas one movement. If it said one on the board does it mean 1 previous owner and I'll be the second?

Saw no animals with 0 movements

If the animal was born on your farm and you take it to the mart it shows 1 owner or 1 movement.
If you didn't sell and brought the animal home again and take it to the mart the following week it shows 2 owners or 2 movements.

I saw a yearling fr bullock in a mart before Christmas with 7 owners it didn't affect the bidding.

simx

Sam Kade wrote: »

If the animal was born on your farm and you take it to the mart it shows 1 owner or 1 movement.
If you didn't sell and brought the animal home again and take it to the mart the following week it shows 2 owners or 2 movements.

I saw a yearling fr bullock in a mart before Christmas with 7 owners it didn't affect the bidding.

Around here that's not the case brought cattle home from mart and brought back again and still 1 owner on board, if that happened I'd say it's a flaw on marts part

MfMan

Factory man told me they have to be the 4th movement, so if you're buying at a mart for killing, only 2 or less movements will suit. (You being the 3rd obviously.)

Farmer Pudsey

Sam Kade wrote: »

If the animal was born on your farm and you take it to the mart it shows 1 owner or 1 movement.
If you didn't sell and brought the animal home again and take it to the mart the following week it shows 2 owners or 2 movements.

I saw a yearling fr bullock in a mart before Christmas with 7 owners it didn't affect the bidding.

Not true if animal is not sold it is not a mvvement. Only movements fron one herd no to another count.

Big difference before and after christmass. As not lower base for overage and higher QA binus as well as other penelty's down the line. Ever 10c/kg lost is 35ish euro on a bullock and 30ish on a heifer

P_Cash

Ok.

Farmer rares bullock to 12 mths.
Sells movement 1 on board
i buy and hold for 8 mthts
sells movememt 2 on board
Next farmer buys and finishes
sells to factory. This is the 3rd movement

The factory is the 4th owner.

Farmer Pudsey

P_Cash wrote: »

Ok.

Farmer rares bullock to 12 mths.
Sells movement 1 on board
i buy and hold for 8 mthts
sells movememt 2 on board
Next farmer buys and finishes
sells to factory. This is the 3rd movement

The factory is the 4th owner.

You can have four movements before factory. Movements in and out of marts do not count provided they are not held overnight I think. However in and out of dealers do.

simx

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

You can have four movements before factory. Movements in and out of marts do not count provided they are not held overnight I think. However in and out of dealers do.

The only way I think ya can get away with movement if bought from dealer is if say he bought calves Monday and sold them Monday night, as long as he rings mart first thing tues am before they are put into dealer herd he can put them straight into new buyers herd cutting out his movement

Sam Kade

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Not true if animal is not sold it is not a mvvement. Only movements fron one herd no to another count.

It was on here that I got that information.

O2b

I was of the opinion that movements in and out of marts by the farmer (unsold) still register as a movement on the board and will still have stamp on card but doesn't count as a qa movement..so animal may have 6 movements on board but may be mentioned when selling "still qualify for qa"

P_Cash

Is this applicable for all cattle that will end up in factories. Or is it specific to certain herd Nos. . . Like need to be in a qa scheme or anything?

O2b

P_Cash wrote: »

Is this applicable for all cattle that will end up in factories. Or is it specific to certain herd Nos. . . Like need to be in a qa scheme or anything?

The finishing farmer must be quality assurred.

The cattle must be in his/her herd for 70days prior to slaughter (or in a different qa herd within that period)

Cattle that grade o- or less dont qualify

Farmer Pudsey

O2b wrote: »

I was of the opinion that movements in and out of marts by the farmer (unsold) still register as a movement on the board and will still have stamp on card but doesn't count as a qa movement..so animal may have 6 movements on board but may be mentioned when selling "still qualify for qa"

It registeres as a movement on the CMMS(agfood.ie) however it is not counted as a QA movement. While movements in and out of marts are counted thet are not counted for QA. In reality No of herds or owners is the qualifying criteria

TUBBY

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

It registeres as a movement on the CMMS(agfood.ie) however it is not counted as a QA movement. While movements in and out of marts are counted thet are not counted for QA. In reality No of herds or owners is the qualifying criteria

lads, I see 4 movements mentioned. I am sure max is 4 owners including you as last one. This is 3 movements for QA bonus

McLivestock

Yous are all wrong. Movement 1 is herd of origin to marts herd no. Movement 2 is from mart herd no to new owner or back to farm of origin. Same with moving cattle to shows ( I have a cow with 54 movements but 2 owners).

Farmer Pudsey

McLivestock wrote: »

Yous are all wrong. Movement 1 is herd of origin to marts herd no. Movement 2 is from mart herd no to new owner or back to farm of origin. Same with moving cattle to shows ( I have a cow with 54 movements but 2 owners).

TBH we are talking about movements that effect QA bonus at time of slaughter. It is becoming a big factor in beef profitability. It is now 12c/kg however in the north cattle with over 4 QA movements were unsaleable a few weeks ago. If QA was worth 20-30c/kg this would be equivlent to 70-110 euro on a 350 kg carcass. Even at 12c/kg it is worth 42 euro.

nhg

Just when we are on the topic of Mart Information Monitor showing number of movements - it should also show the exact breed of the animal that's on the animals card as well (haven't been at mart in aprox 6 months so maybe it does now)

Sheep breeder

As for dealer changing the movement of a calf in the mart the next day that is incorrect,all marts are live on the cmms on the day and before an animal leaves the mart it has to move in to a valid herd number and this has to be the dealers number for to comply with his brass plate, and now a dealer must work on a nbas 31 for movement the same permit as a farmer,as the dealer permit is no longer permitted to be used as all animals have to get prior approval before movement of animals to make sure they are in test or in his herd,
The animal to mart and home is still one movement as the QA uses the cmms to count movements it would be impossible for somebody in a factory to sit at a computer and start to decide which is a movement and which is not a movement.

Sheep breeder

As for dealer changing the movement of a calf in the mart the next day that is incorrect,all marts are live on the cmms on the day and before an animal leaves the mart it has to move in to a valid herd number and this has to be the dealers number for to comply with his brass plate, and now a dealer must work on a nbas 31 for movement the same permit as a farmer,as the dealer permit is no longer permitted to be used as all animals have to get prior approval before movement of animals to make sure they are in test or in his herd,
The animal to mart and home is still one movement as the QA uses the cmms to count movements it would be impossible for somebody in a factory to sit at a computer and start to decide which is a movement and which is not a movement.

Sheep breeder

As for dealer changing the movement of a calf in the mart the next day that is incorrect,all marts are live on the cmms on the day and before an animal leaves the mart it has to move in to a valid herd number and this has to be the dealers number for to comply with his brass plate, and now a dealer must work on a nbas 31 for movement the same permit as a farmer,as the dealer permit is no longer permitted to be used as all animals have to get prior approval before movement of animals to make sure they are in test or in his herd,
The animal to mart and home is still one movement as the QA uses the cmms to count movements it would be impossible for somebody in a factory to sit at a computer and start to decide which is a movement and which is not a movement.

P_Cash

Fyi

my mart shows no of owners. . Keeps it friggin simple. . Then shows me days last held. . That way you can see when the animal last moved. . If at all.

Thankfully the breed appeared on the board 3 yrs ago. .

Nice digital board we have. . When its broken i go home. .

farmernewbie

Getting a dealer to buy a few for me and put them in my herd no. just noticed one of them has 4 movements but I am only the 2nd owner. Seems farmer brought him to mart movement 1, didn't sell so brought him home counted as movement 2.

Brought him to mart again movement 3, dealer buys him with my herd no now its movement no 4 on agfood.ie.

It's a weanling, hope to sell as a store next December. How will it appear on mart board? Will it appear as movement no 5 and cause me problems?

O2b

farmernewbie wrote: »

Getting a dealer to buy a few for me and put them in my herd no. just noticed one of them has 4 movements but I am only the 2nd owner. Seems farmer brought him to mart movement 1, didn't sell so brought him home counted as movement 2.

Brought him to mart again movement 3, dealer buys him with my herd no now its movement no 4 on agfood.ie.

It's a weanling, hope to sell as a store next December. How will it appear on mart board? Will it appear as movement no 5 and cause me problems?

Yes will appear as movement 5. Stay in box when selling at mart and tell auctioneer to mention its only had 2 owners is ur best bet.

farmernewbie

O2b wrote: »

Yes will appear as movement 5. Stay in box when selling at mart and tell auctioneer to mention its only had 2 owners is ur best bet.

Jesus that seems like a stupid system, surely the mart shouldn't count as a movement unless sold. Surely the system should see 2 owners and that should appear.

Farmer Pudsey

farmernewbie wrote: »

Getting a dealer to buy a few for me and put them in my herd no. just noticed one of them has 4 movements but I am only the 2nd owner. Seems farmer brought him to mart movement 1, didn't sell so brought him home counted as movement 2.

Brought him to mart again movement 3, dealer buys him with my herd no now its movement no 4 on agfood.ie.

It's a weanling, hope to sell as a store next December. How will it appear on mart board? Will it appear as movement no 5 and cause me problems?

You should only appear as two movements if that is so. Marts taht I go to only show no of movements that effect QA.

farmernewbie

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

You should only appear as two movements if that is so. Marts taht I go to only show no of movements that effect QA.

Ok should be ok so. It's just down as 4 movements on agfood.

Farmer Pudsey

farmernewbie wrote: »

Ok should be ok so. It's just down as 4 movements on agfood.

ignore movements in and out of marts owners count only

farmernewbie

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

ignore movements in and out of marts owners count only

Thanks just keep hearing about keep the number of movements down. Thats great news as I'm only the 2nd owner so.

O2b

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

You should only appear as two movements if that is so. Marts taht I go to only show no of movements that effect QA.

Ive heard it in marts before, "still ok for qa" with 6/7 movements. Remembered reading in the farmers journal late last year that all marts go from departments aims system which includes all movements.

I pulled out the article i had it still and sure enough thats what it says.. "In all marts, the information displayed is taken directly from the departments aims system" From the 5th October 13 Farmers Journal. Now whether the article is correct or not....as they'd say if its a lie im telling ya, twas a lie i was told!

farmernewbie

O2b wrote: »

Ive heard it in marts before, "still ok for qa" with 6/7 movements. Remembered reading in the farmers journal late last year that all marts go from departments aims system which includes all movements.

I pulled out the article i had it still and sure enough thats what it says.. "In all marts, the information displayed is taken directly from the departments aims system" From the 5th October 13 Farmers Journal. Now whether the article is correct or not....as they'd say if its a lie im telling ya, twas a lie i was told!

Hopefully, just seen the lad buying for me has bought one with 3 movements. All in two weeks, farmera to mart, mart to farmerb and farmerb to my dealer who put him straight into my herd no.

Worried why farmerb is after only holding him for a week and my dealer has bought him in a private deal.

Kovu

Sheep breeder wrote: »

As for dealer changing the movement of a calf in the mart the next day that is incorrect,all marts are live on the cmms on the day and before an animal leaves the mart it has to move in to a valid herd number and this has to be the dealers number for to comply with his brass plate, and now a dealer must work on a nbas 31 for movement the same permit as a farmer,as the dealer permit is no longer permitted to be used as all animals have to get prior approval before movement of animals to make sure they are in test or in his herd,
The animal to mart and home is still one movement as the QA uses the cmms to count movements it would be impossible for somebody in a factory to sit at a computer and start to decide which is a movement and which is not a movement.

Not true, marts are live on the day yes, but the sale will not close untilo the following afternoon/evening to allow time for the dealers/farmers buying to change their minds or to find a customer for an animal.

Animal to mart and home is not counted for the QA.
The movements have to be counted one by one at the factory if you are QA herd! The system will flag the animal as having a higher number of movements than allowed for QA, the tag is then brought up and if some of those movements are mart->home then that movement is not counted.

I counted animals on it that had 17/18 movements but only 3 herd number changes which is the important part.
A mart does not hold a herd number unless they use it for export testing. It has an allotted number eg- E291, E112.

McLivestock

Every mart has a herd number, I've worked in enough of them to know

Sheep breeder

Mclivestock is correct the mart has an ordinary herd number for unsold animals or animals returned etc, as for the mart holding over cattle for the dealer to try sell on the next day is bulls... The mart on the fall of the hammer or the end of the sale has to complete the cmms to comply with the rules of there licence and can only operate cmms on the day of the sale and no other day as not covered to do.

Kovu

Sheep breeder wrote: »

Mclivestock is correct the mart has an ordinary herd number for unsold animals or animals returned etc, as for the mart holding over cattle for the dealer to try sell on the next day is bulls... The mart on the fall of the hammer or the end of the sale has to complete the cmms to comply with the rules of there licence and can only operate cmms on the day of the sale and no other day as not covered to do.

Ok, maybe they all have herd numbers now, I do know that it takes a bit of work with marts getting a dealer number to test for export in. Maybe I'm confusing it with that.

And yes they do hold the cattle until the next day, but in the dealer herd number. If the dealer doesn't get back to the mart before the cmms is closed then they will go into his dealer no and it will be his problem.
Very rarely does a mart send cmms straight after the sale, unless it was a small sale or they want to close it for a sale the next day. Even then with the Infoscience system they can have 2 sales or more open in tandem, just have to log into the correct days sale before putting cards etc into data system.

Sheep breeder

the marts always had a herd number and the do not have dealer plate number, a mart can have export number for animals going for export to be read and health cert paperwork done. and E number is used for this,on sale date the passports have to be scanned into cmms data base prior to sale on the mart code M +3 numbers.all marts are live on the day the same as the factory and the only difference is a saturday sale up dated on monday morning.a mart does not let the dealer buy at the ring and wait till he goes to country and sells them the next day and do the transfer to the man that buys from the dealer that was never in the mart, how can the mart do a docket in this mans name for vat, tax, etc