Render Finish for New build

BarneyMc

Stonework has started on my new build and I'm looking ahead to finishing the rest of the house with a suitable render (I'm only putting stone at the front).

Can anyone please help me choose a suitable render? Here's the 3 realistic options I can see with some questions:

1. Sand/Cement Finish
Relatively cheap?
Will last years without the need to paint?
Looks ok with stonework to the front?

2. Dry Dash
Never needs painting?
Looks ok with stonework to the front?

3. Wet Dash
Never needs painting but can be at any time?
Looks ok with stonework to the front?

Thanks!

sydthebeat

monocouche render all the way

edit: im sure your planning conditions will have an impact into this choice.
what was called up as external finish on your planning drawings?

BarneyMc

The planning doc just says "external rendering system".

Why monocouche? Is this not a lot more expensive than standard dry/dash finishes? I'd like to keep to something traditional looking.

sydthebeat

It is more expensive yes, but in my experience its a better finish due to quality of finish, continuity of colour, speed of installation and non maintenance going forward.

There are a good selection of colours to choose from to provide a tradition look.

In my own opinion, dry dash shouldnt be considered at all. its not tradition, its an urban finish and would look crap with that random rubble stone.

Wet dash needs a lot of maintenance over time, can get dirty and can be a bitch to clean..... also generally never seen in conjunction with stone finishes.

Sand and cement would be the obvious choice, but include for painting over the lifespan of the build. Also, ive seen some disastrous external finishing due to walls being half done, then continued a few days later, differential drying occurs and cracking can be extensive. Make sure your plasters are well established and educated.

but i have to ask again, what do the planning drawings AND conditions say?
It would be highly unusual for no external finish to be called up on the elevations, and it would be unusual for there to be no restriction to elevational finishes in the planing conditions.

BarneyMc

sydthebeat wrote: »

but i have to ask again, what do the planning drawings AND conditions say?
It would be highly unusual for no external finish to be called up on the elevations, and it would be unusual for there to be no restriction to elevational finishes in the planing conditions.

My mistake, too much rushing! The drawings say: "SMOOTH external rendering system".

huntsman77

Napp all the way yea ya have to paint but ya can change around with colours if ya ever wanted to change the look .personally wouldn't put monocouche on a dog house pure Celtic tiger rubbish when a plasterer wanted to get in and out quick . does fade has tendency to go green or red seen places with moss growing on it very hard if ya ever have to patch in a bit compared to nap . nap is around a long time for good reason only my opinion of course

BarneyMc

Napp is just a sand & cement smooth render? I think I know it - you would get away with a number of years before having to paint?

jpb14

BarneyMc wrote: »

Stonework has started on my new build and I'm looking ahead to finishing the rest of the house with a suitable render (I'm only putting stone at the front).

Can anyone please help me choose a suitable render? Here's the 3 realistic options I can see with some questions:

1. Sand/Cement Finish
Relatively cheap?
Will last years without the need to paint?
Looks ok with stonework to the front?

2. Dry Dash
Never needs painting?
Looks ok with stonework to the front?

3. Wet Dash
Never needs painting but can be at any time?
Looks ok with stonework to the front?

Thanks!

Can I ask you what the mesh strips sticking out of the wall are for?
Are they for holding the stonework mortar or rendering up in place?
Honest question.:)

BarneyMc

jpb14 wrote: »

Can I ask you what the mesh strips sticking out of the wall are for?
Are they for holding the stonework mortar or rendering up in place?
Honest question.:)

I believe they help tie the stonework to the main block wall.

Honest question, honest answer! :pac:

jpb14

BarneyMc wrote: »

I believe they help tie the stonework to the main block wall.

Honest question, honest answer! :pac:

Thanks.looks very nice btw.:)

glashanator

Hello Barney,

You and myself seem to be roughly around the same stage of our builds.

I've just got the chimney plastered/rubbed up, so the roofers can finish slating. I went with a white Limestone sand finish, so I wouldn't have to get up and paint it.

Had only intended to do the chimney, but the more I see it the more I like it, and I think I'll finish the house in it.

The chimney is scudded and scratched in the normal way, with normal grey cement and normal building sand.

The finish is a mixture of white sand,lime and white cement and ends up looking an off white colour.

The cost wouldn't be that much more expensive than normal rubbed up grey sand and cement finish.And is definitely offset by not having to paint it for 5 years or so. Its much more robust than Monocouche.
And may have that traditional look you need for that building.

Only have chimney done but can take a photo of it if you wish to get look at it .

BarneyMc

glashanator wrote: »

Hello Barney,

You and myself seem to be roughly around the same stage of our builds.

I've just got the chimney plastered/rubbed up, so the roofers can finish slating. I went with a white Limestone sand finish, so I wouldn't have to get up and paint it.

Had only intended to do the chimney, but the more I see it the more I like it, and I think I'll finish the house in it.

The chimney is scudded and scratched in the normal way, with normal grey cement and normal building sand.

The finish is a mixture of white sand,lime and white cement and ends up looking an off white colour.

The cost wouldn't be that much more expensive than normal rubbed up grey sand and cement finish.And is definitely offset by not having to paint it for 5 years or so. Its much more robust than Monocouche.
And may have that traditional look you need for that building.

Only have chimney done but can take a photo of it if you wish to get look at it .

Yes a photo would be great - look forward to seeing it

glashanator

Ok, it will be tomorrow by the time I get back to site, but i'll stick it straight up when I get there.

baby fish

I personally wouldn't touch the coloured stuff that comes in bag

Option 1, The grey sand and cement looks awful, However, Option 1 is the best in my opinion, if you change to white sand, white cement and lime as suggested above. I put this on my house!

What will this cost you?
When I was doing it, The white sand and cement is about double the price when compared to the normal grey cement and sand.
labour and lime remain the same price.

What will you get?
It will dry to an off white colour, I love it.
I will get away without painting this for years
Mine was finished using a sponge, so its fairly smooth - meaning when I do paint it will require less paint compared to a rougher finish

The only drawback ( and it doesn't bother me) is, it does turn more off white/discolour when it rains, but it will dry out to be its normal off white colour again when it stops raining

vertico

Can you take a few more pics of the dpc detail around the windows... Make sure it's done properly cause you don't want problems at a later date.

BarneyMc

Thanks everyone for all your help. If anyone has photos they can post to show what they're describing that would be fantastic. The Glashanator has very kindly offered to show us his tomorrow!

sawdoubters

stucco that has paint in it

http://homeguides.sfgate.com/tint-stucco-29164.html

BarneyMc

sawdoubters wrote: »

stucco that has paint in it

http://homeguides.sfgate.com/tint-stucco-29164.html

Thanks for this. It describes it as "Stucco is a combination of powdered limestone or cement, blended with sand and water until it reaches a mortar-like consistency."

So this is basically what others here have described as "Napp" and although the images on the above link should a very textured finish it can be smoothed as desired?

cork2013

Went with white sand render and stone on our house,traditional look so maybe similar to your own. Hoping to get in soon,fingers crossed!

BarneyMc

cork2013 wrote: »

Went with white sand render and stone on our house,traditional look so maybe similar to your own. Hoping to get in soon,fingers crossed!

That's beautiful! How smooth did you make it? If you have any close up photos that would be super. Thanks so much and good luck with the big move!

blacktea

jpb14 wrote: »

Can I ask you what the mesh strips sticking out of the wall are for?
Are they for holding the stonework mortar or rendering up in place?
Honest question.:)

barneymc, quick question, are those mesh strips for the stonework galvanised strips by any chance...

BarneyMc

I'm really not sure blacktea.

glashanator

blacktea wrote: »

barneymc, quick question, are those mesh strips for the stonework galvanised strips by any chance...

Yes they're galvanised...I've used them as well.

blacktea

glashanator wrote: »

Yes they're galvanised...I've used them as well.

AFAIK mesh strips of any type are not recommended, i think the home bond manual recommends ss ties to secure stone.

The problem with mesh but particularly galvanised mesh is corrosion over time. When the strips are cut (assuming from a roll) the ends are then exposed and can corrode, over a long time mind you. Just something to bear in mind and look into maybe, particularly as stone is not all up as yet. I was working for a surveyor and he made a builder pull down all the cladding off a wall because it had galv mesh.

sorry to go off topic...

Slick50

Hi BarneyMc, that's a very nice looking bit of stonework. If you are going to go for the nap finish, you could get away with using white cement and ordinary plastering sand, as opposed to white sand. White sand is a lot more expensive, and IMO gives a very bright white finish, were as plain sand gives a softer white finish. A good quantity of waterproofer through the render mix, should help it to keep it's colour, and avoid the need for painting for much longer. White sand and white cement could be used for the reveals, which would avoid painting for a long time.

BarneyMc

Slick50 wrote: »

Hi BarneyMc, that's a very nice looking bit of stonework. If you are going to go for the nap finish, you could get away with using white cement and ordinary plastering sand, as opposed to white sand. White sand is a lot more expensive, and IMO gives a very bright white finish, were as plain sand gives a softer white finish. A good quantity of waterproofer through the render mix, should help it to keep it's colour, and avoid the need for painting for much longer. White sand and white cement could be used for the reveals, which would avoid painting for a long time.

Thanks Slick50, what do you mean by 'reveals'?

Slick50

BarneyMc wrote: »

Thanks Slick50, what do you mean by 'reveals'?

The finish around the windows and doors,

BarneyMc

Slick50 wrote: »

The finish around the windows and doors,

Yes, sorry, it's been a long day!!!

cork2013

This is as close up as I have! Reveals are finished also in traditional style with white sand plaster. Just noticed someone mentioning them in previous posts.

BryanF

cork2013 wrote: »

This is as close up as I have! Reveals are finished also in traditional style with white sand plaster. Just noticed someone mentioning them in previous posts.

thats some footpath you have there:D

glashanator

Hello Barney once again.

A couple of close up pics of chimney to give you an idea.

And the strip between the 2 roofs as well.

Sand cement was mixed at ratio 7/1 , sand/cement and a small amount of mortor mix. No water proofer or Lime was added in final coat, only in scratch coat.

BarneyMc

glashanator wrote: »

Hello Barney once again.

A couple of close up pics of chimney to give you an idea.

And the strip between the 2 roofs as well.

Sand cement was mixed at ratio 7/1 , sand/cement and a small amount of mortor mix. No water proofer or Lime was added in final coat, only in scratch coat.

Hi Glash,thanks very much for taking these pics - render looks great! When do you think you'll have to paint this and how often thereafter?

glashanator

Haha....

This may be the ironic part. I'm a painter and decorator/spray painter by trade.And thats exactly why I'm doing this way... so i don't have to... your own jobs always get done last , right?

Anyways......Once you start to paint exteriors,you'll always have to. Paint by its nature degrades fairly quickly in our climate. 3 years is all you really get nowadays, 4 if you're lucky.

This finish would last 5 years easy with no maintenance. I think 10 or more with a little maintenace. But i think eventually you'd have to paint it to protect it from our climate.

What do I mean by maintenance?

---

Definitely getting out the powerwasher once a year to wash all the grime and dirt that will ultimately gather on it.
Be prepared to use agricultural bleach to kill any algae, or especially that horrble red growth that comes on windy/wet gables of houses... And again , powerwash that off to not leave any detergent on the house.


Hope this helps.

BarneyMc

glashanator wrote: »

Haha....

This may be the ironic part. I'm a painter and decorator/spray painter by trade.And thats exactly why I'm doing this way... so i don't have to... your own jobs always get done last , right?

Anyways......Once you start to paint exteriors,you'll always have to. Paint by its nature degrades fairly quickly in our climate. 3 years is all you really get nowadays, 4 if you're lucky.

This finish would last 5 years easy with no maintenance. I think 10 or more with a little maintenace. But i think eventually you'd have to paint it to protect it from our climate.

What do I mean by maintenance?

---

Definitely getting out the powerwasher once a year to wash all the grime and dirt that will ultimately gather on it.
Be prepared to use agricultural bleach to kill any algae, or especially that horrble red growth that comes on windy/wet gables of houses... And again , powerwash that off to not leave any detergent on the house.


Hope this helps.

Ahhh, they don't call you the glashanator for nothing! :P

Having to pain the house every 3-4 years would sicken me. Is there anything else out there that would last for years without having to paint?

baby fish

@Glashanator

I've been told that its best to leave external plaster for 5 - 7 years before painting it because if its painted within the first few years the paint can flake off overtime. apparently because there is some sort of reaction between the lime and cement going on for a few years

Any truth behind this? How many years would you recommend to leave it before painting

Is there some kind of primer for new plaster?

glashanator

baby fish wrote: »

@Glashanator

I've been told that its best to leave external plaster for 5 - 7 years before painting it because if its painted within the first few years the paint can flake off overtime. apparently because there is some sort of reaction between the lime and cement going on for a few years

Any truth behind this? How many years would you recommend to leave it before painting

Is there some kind of primer for new plaster?

@Babyfish

I'd agree with this to a certain extent, but its def not 5 - 7 years. More like 1 year or max 2 years. You'd def be good to paint after 2 .. But I'd totally agree that the house should be let weather before painting. We've all seen the Celtic tiger houses thrown up ,plastered, and painted within a month.The paint seldom stays on. And is very hard to rectify there after.

Efferesence is a big problem in Irish exteriors. Efferesence is basically a "salt" coming to the surface. Its the white residue you often find under your window sills. I'd assume the salt comes from the the sand used while sand & cementing.

A watered down 1st coat is the accepted way to go.

My personal preference, but is not a primer as such, is stabilizing solution.

Stabilizing solution is clear liquid you put onto any precast concrete(window sills , Kerbing) before painting. precast concrete doesn't hold paint well as its too smooth. Stabilizing solution basically gives a great base to paint onto there after on most surfaces, and is many many times more durable than any paint I know of bar 2 pack and marine paints.

Can add to cost of painting a house but without doubt paint job will last longer. you only have 1 chance to do it though and thats onto the sand and cement before any paint is introduced.

glash

kkelliher

sydthebeat wrote: »

monocouche render all the way

Worst product ever introduced in ireland without a shadow of a doubt.

Cant be repaired
Very difficult to clean
No suitable for moist climates
allows easy mould growth
Stains easily
Oh i could go on, should come with a health warning as many buildings built during the boom will show

wirehairmax

Agree with everything kkelliher said. Its a crap product. I've seen it and had to use it on many buildings, houses, hotels, shopping centres, apartments etc and never once have I had a finished product that I've been 100% happy with.
The closest I've come to being near satisfied with this stuff was when the building was scratch-coated before applying the monocouche which totally defeats the theory and intended purpose and application of the name and product. I always advise people now to stay 100 miles away from it if they can.

BarneyMc

I've come to the conclusion that a finish that never needs painting is the way to go. Does the granite chip dry finish meet this requirement? I think another poster said it didn't really suit a rural settings but I think I could live with that. Does anyone have this?

Dubl07

BarneyMc wrote: »

I've come to the conclusion that a finish that never needs painting is the way to go. Does the granite chip dry finish meet this requirement? I think another poster said it didn't really suit a rural settings but I think I could live with that. Does anyone have this?

I loved prying the chips of granite out of my great-grandparents' walls as a kid. So did my cousins.

BarneyMc

I've come across these 2 types of dry granite finishes - see attached images. Has anyone these on their house and if so are they happy with the finish and how it has weathered? Thanks.

declan52

BarneyMc wrote: »

I've come across these 2 types of dry granite finishes - see attached images. Has anyone these on their house and if so are they happy with the finish and how it has weathered? Thanks.

I am putting the silver granite on mine. A few houses near me have it and it seems to weather pretty gd. Obviously depends on how well it was put on. There is a sparkle of it when the sun hits it really nice looking comes from silca grains in the mix. Am pairing mine with silver and gold quartizite Stone. the pics you have are from the <snip> have a look. Based in <snip>

Slick50

BarneyMc wrote: »

I've come across these 2 types of dry granite finishes - see attached images. Has anyone these on their house and if so are they happy with the finish and how it has weathered? Thanks.

Just one point re: dry dashing, as opposed to a nap finish. The render used to hold the dry dash is the same render you would use for a nap finish. It is just render with a colour through it, which is the only reason it doesn't need painting, and really never should.

BarneyMc

Slick50 wrote: »

Just one point re: dry dashing, as opposed to a nap finish. The render used to hold the dry dash is the same render you would use for a nap finish. It is just render with a colour through it, which is the only reason it doesn't need painting, and really never should.

So nap should never need painting if it has a colour through it?

Slick50

BarneyMc wrote: »

So nap should never need painting if it has a colour through it?

No more than any dry dash, it is the same material. I would recommend adding waterproofing through it, it is less absorbent then, so less likely to discolour/grow mould. Strong colours would fade over time, but white sand, cement would change very little, imperceptably unless you put fresh render beside it.

BarneyMc

I've seen nap finish with sort of cracking effect... not sure what it is but it's probably crying out for a paint job. The house is about 8 years old.

One big disadvantage I see with a granite dry dash is the fact that you can't power hose it to get rid of any discolour/mould.

I'm coing to contact a company who supply the dry dash and see what they say.

Slick50

BarneyMc wrote: »

I've seen nap finish with sort of cracking effect... not sure what it is but it's probably crying out for a paint job. The house is about 8 years old.

One big disadvantage I see with a granite dry dash is the fact that you can't power hose it to get rid of any discolour/mould.

I'm coing to contact a company who supply the dry dash and see what they say.

The two most likely causes of cracking are, drying out too quickly, or the finish coat not adhering to the scratch coat properly, usually caused by a poor scratch coat. If you see anyone using a stick with a few nails in it, to make a few scratches on your walls, run him off the site.
If you are cleaning down the outside of the house, you are better off not using the power hose too vigorously. There are plenty of chemical treatments you can use to do the hard work, then just rinse off with the power hose well away from the surface

BarneyMc

Slick50 wrote: »

If you are cleaning down the outside of the house, you are better off not using the power hose too vigorously. There are plenty of chemical treatments you can use to do the hard work, then just rinse off with the power hose well away from the surface

Can you do this with the grey granite dry dash finish, i.e. apply chemicals and then take it very easy with the power hose?

Slick50

BarneyMc wrote: »

Can you do this with the grey granite dry dash finish, i.e. apply chemicals and then take it very easy with the power hose?

I'm sure you can, but I cannot predict the results, as it will depend on so many variables. If it is a well done job, it shouldn't be a problem, but you will still lose a certain ammount of stone.

Gmmc

Hi all

I have just come across this discussion and we too are deliberating over render at the minute!
Our build is in the sperrins( derry side for some followers!) and the slates started going on this week. Windows are ordered so the builder (my uncle) wants us to decide on the render finish.
I like the smooth finish white render that quite a few of you seem to have while my husband would go for a grey colour.
My uncle recommends a wet dash that could be painted or left grey as it is and he sees this on a house he built 25 years ago and it still looks like it did then!
The architect isn't overly keen on a smooth sand cement finish as settlement cracks can be an eyesore esp on front elevation. He agrees that a wet dash camouflages these better.
For a smoother finish he says to go for k-rend which is obviously more expensive and one we would likely avoid.
My query is a wet dash really very pebbled looking as i don't what this at all?!
Barney, the pictures you had of the dry dash attached in the grey look not so bad and we actually found that website last night!
Would the wet dash look similar?
Barney did you make a decision out of interest?
Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

I'll attach a few pics of the build at diff stages.

declan52

hi Gmmc i was actually at the suppliers of the dry dash yesterday. They have maybe 20 panels with different stone, different sand and different cement used. They are pretty close to you in coal island . Mods sometimes remove place name so pm me if its removed. I am going for a dry dash but after seeing the panels i have changed from the pearl grey to the 6mm silver granite dash. The wet dash is just slap dash and it is probably the best way to seal an outside wall plaster wise. Never really cracks or discolours. By the way your build looks pretty tasty. Some view out over the mountains to look at from your site.