Future of terrestrial broadcasting in the UHF band?

marno21

The Cush wrote: »

If I remember correctly from the time ASO happened parts of Wicklow (Kippure tx) and areas around Co. Kerry lost aerial reception when analogue was switched off. I have a recollection of a report on the News of people no longer receiving a signal.

The people in Kerry were receiving RTE from relays that were rebroadcasting Sky signals instead of off air signals from Mullaghanish. They were switched off the day before the switchover on the 24th.

Thurston?

The Cush wrote: »

If I remember correctly from the time ASO happened parts of Wicklow (Kippure tx) ... lost aerial reception when analogue was switched off.

I'm assuming these folks already had UHF aerials on Kippure, or tried them after switchover? They didn't just start complaining when their band III aerials didn't work for Saorview?

There were at least 10 relays in Wicklow that went off too.

The Cush

marno21 wrote: »

The people in Kerry were receiving RTE from relays that were rebroadcasting Sky signals instead of off air signals from Mullaghanish. They were switched off the day before the switchover on the 24th.

The news report I remember was about the loss of the Irish terrestrial channels.

marno21

The Cush wrote: »

The news report I remember was about the loss of the Irish terrestrial channels.

Yeah that's what I mean - RTENL were operating relays in select areas (Bonane, Annascaul) but rebroadcast feeds in the areas were insufficient for good quality transmission and they used Sky satellite boxes as signal sources instead. Because these weren't relaying the RTE analogue signal to be turned off on the 24th, they were shut off a day early.

Regardless of this, the people in said areas should have been prepared, they knew what was coming. If I remember the report showed a local installer massively busy on the 23rd installing Saorsat systems.

Thurston?

Thurston? wrote: »

The Cush wrote: »

If I remember correctly from the time ASO happened parts of Wicklow (Kippure tx) ... lost aerial reception when analogue was switched off.

I'm assuming these folks already had UHF aerials on Kippure, or tried them after switchover? They didn't just start complaining when their band III aerials didn't work for Saorview?

And I did wonder in an earlier post if the mast works at the band III sites were done with a view of not 'cutting off' viewers who might have acceptable VHF analogue, but maybe less than acceptable UHF &, isn't the height increase only now on for Kippure?

The Cush

Thurston? wrote: »

And I did wonder in an earlier post if the mast works at the band III sites were done with a view of not 'cutting off' viewers who might have acceptable VHF analogue, but maybe less than acceptable UHF &, isn't the height increase only now on for Kippure?

Four of the main masts were replaced prior to ASO, don't remember the details but I assume that would have included a height increase.

Mullaghanish I know got a large power boost relative to analogue which increased its coverage area to compensate for the loss of VHF reception, with report of reception in the Aran Islands.

marno21

The Cush wrote: »

Four of the main masts were replaced prior to ASO, don't remember the details but I assume that would have included a height increase.

Mullaghanish I know got a large power boost relative to analogue which increased its coverage area to compensate for the loss of VHF reception, with report of reception in the Aran Islands.

Mullaghanish's height increase from 170m to 220m, and from 400kW analogue UHF to 200kW UHF digital (approx. equiv to 1MW analogue UHF), along with power increases at most sites in the SW (Spur Hill especially going from 10kW analogue to 50kW digital), plus the addition of Cnoc An Oir was a massive help in the south west. There are still a few blackspots but a lot of areas with relays (Listowel, Abbeyfeale, Camp, Feothanach, Macroom, Carrigadrohid, Inishannon) are now covered and also areas such as Riverstick where reception was riddled with multipath now gets perfect digital signal. Lots of people with subpar analogue reception now get full Saorview that never had a relay.

marno21

marno21 wrote: »

Mullaghanish's height increase from 170m to 220m, and from 400kW analogue UHF to 200kW UHF digital (approx. equiv to 1MW analogue UHF), along with power increases at most sites in the SW (Spur Hill especially going from 10kW analogue to 50kW digital), plus the addition of Cnoc An Oir was a massive help in the south west. There are still a few blackspots but a lot of areas with relays (Listowel, Abbeyfeale, Camp, Feothanach, Macroom, Carrigadrohid, Inishannon) are now covered and also areas such as Riverstick where reception was riddled with multipath now gets perfect digital signal. Lots of people with subpar analogue reception now get full Saorview that never had a relay.

+1. My parents could never get clear UHF from any of the sites from where they live. Maghera and Mullaghanish were snowy, while Listowel and Knockmoyle were co-channel. Cnoc An Oir is absolutely perfect for them.

marno21

Karsini wrote: »

+1. My parents could never get clear UHF from any of the sites from where they live. Maghera and Mullaghanish were snowy, while Listowel and Knockmoyle were co-channel. Cnoc An Oir is absolutely perfect for them.

What happened with Listowel and Knockmoyle back in the day was a joke. Lots of Listowel relies on Knockmoyle for radio reception (Spin/Newstalk) and plenty of places near Listowel would've got strong reception from both. Especially considering for anyone between Listowel and Tralee the two transmitters were 180' apart from the point of an aerial making things even more difficult. Very strange that it was never rectified.

It even made Wikipedia as an example of poor frequency planning: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Co-channel_interference

RTE's decision to use Knockanore was a great one. Negated the need for relays in Listowel, Abbeyfeale, Lahinch, Milltown Malbay and Kilkee. Also massively improves reception across West Limerick, North Kerry and West Clare. Pity it wasn't used back in the analogue days, as lots of West Limerick in particular had major struggles with TV reception.

Thurston?

The Cush wrote: »

... Mullaghanish I know got a large power boost relative to analogue which increased its coverage area to compensate for the loss of VHF reception, with report of reception in the Aran Islands.

The coverage checker has it as the recommended transmitter in a few spots there.

Incidentally, I could get decent VHF analogue from Kippure at about the same distance, the common factor I suppose being their great height above the intervening terrain. Kippure UHF analogue seems to have been heavily restricted in my direction, Saorview I don't think so much, though a few passing attempts at getting a signal have been unsuccessful.

marno21

Thurston? wrote: »

The coverage checker has it as the recommended transmitter in a few spots there.

Incidentally, I could get decent VHF analogue from Kippure at about the same distance, the common factor I suppose being their great height above the intervening terrain. Kippure UHF analogue seems to have been heavily restricted in my direction, Saorview I don't think so much, though a few passing attempts at getting a signal have been unsuccessful.

Same job as Maghera for northern parts of the Dingle peninsula near Mt. Brandon.

These same areas back in the heyday of local radio had clear Clare FM reception but no Radio Kerry. These days they should be able to get something from Knockanore on 97.6.

Antenna

TAFKAlawhec wrote: »

My experience of DVB-T on VHF Band III in Australia is that it's not the magic bullet some might make it out to be, and I found it more hassle to get alignment right on indoor reception compared to UHF on the same sites. Nevertheless in theory it should provide better over-the-horizon performance compared to UHF.

AN issue I expect is the levels of interference radiated at VHF by the receiving equipment itself including the TV screen as well as set-top box (if applicable).
With a portable FM radio receiving FM with stereo, bring it close to the TV, set-top box etc in many cases reception dramatically degrades due to radiated noise (may be worse on some frequencies than others). other connected equipment such as DVD players may be radiating some interference as well. All not an issue long ago, TVs did not radiate any interference of significance on frequencies used for TV or FM radio (MW/LW might be a different matter!) and VHF generally worked better than UHF on set-top aerials.

Antenna

The Cush wrote: »

Not realistic, take Winter Hill for example, a main transmitter with the largest population coverage affected by the 700 MHz band clearance, approx. 2.7m households, the estimate is about 1% of Freeview users in the coverage area will currently require aerial work, imagine a polarisation change and the resulting percentage increase.

A change of polarisation actually happened on one main transmitter in this country, in the 1970s with the Truskmore transmitter, this to reduce interference relating to the introduction of RTE2. And this when everyone received terrestrially as there was nothing else. Both polarisations were used for some months to give people a chance to change over.

One would naturally try to avoid having to do so with the transmitters serving the highest numbers of viewers

One main transmitter Rowridge serving a large area of the south coast of England went to mixed polarisation (both horizontal and vertical) with DSO to lessen the possibility of interference from France by viewers now using vertical polarised receiving aerials rather than horizontal as before.
http://aerialsandtv.com/rowridgetx.html
Its probably the case that it will eventually go Vertical-only to get the full value of interference polarisation discrimination however old aerials still in use with H polarisation would have to be altered.

With further selloff maybe this has to be looked at other main transmitter sites as well to reduce the likelihood of co-channel interference???

Since UHF analogue in the UK, it had been the case that all main sites were H, and nearly all relays were V.
It is nearly the same situation in Ireland with Clermont Carn being the sole vertical polarised main UHF transmitter. Relays have been either V or H unlike the UK where almost all were V.

Its a question if some other main sites switched to V would it be beneficial in overall less co-channel interference?

The Cush

The coordinated clearance plan with the UK is nearing completion and due to be signed off in March, while the channel groupings are known for the main interfering sites there is no indication of any polarisation changes, we'll have to wait a few months before we know the final plan.

lucernarian

I can say it's a shame to see Band 3 VHF left to either disuse or on a rather mediocre technology, in this country.

I'd also add that there are various spots (apartments mostly) in Drogheda that lost reception at switchover. These being areas nearest the river, around the crowded parts on the northern bank especially. People dependent on rabbit ears could manage something from Kippure, and no rabbits ears or more optimised home-made antenna could manage reliable Saorview reception.

The worst part is that a Saorview relay was proposed for the town, but was dropped off the agenda. There's far more people who are not served by Saorview there, than in some valley in west Kerry.

The Cush

lucernarian wrote: »

The worst part is that a Saorview relay was proposed for the town, but was dropped off the agenda. There's far more people who are not served by Saorview there, than in some valley in west Kerry.

Back on the agenda again, Drogheda is one of 2 new transmitters proposed for the clearance programme, the other being Wicklow town.

Proposed frequency plan for the site - 22, 25, 28, 29, 31, 37 (Group A).

TAFKAlawhec

Antenna wrote: »

AN issue I expect is the levels of interference radiated at VHF by the receiving equipment itself including the TV screen as well as set-top box (if applicable).

My experience was with the VHF Band III aerial at least five metres away from the TV & DVB-T receiver specifically to rule out all but the worst possible interference. UHF reception was with the same aerial but with the elements shortened. This is over eight years ago now, so the memory is a bit scratchy.

Antenna

The Cush wrote: »

Back on the agenda again, Drogheda is one of 2 new transmitters proposed for the clearance programme, the other being Wicklow town.

Proposed frequency plan for the site - 22, 25, 28, 29, 31, 37 (Group A).

is polarisation known?, I would suspect vertical

The Cush

Antenna wrote: »

is polarisation known?

No. Under the 2012 replan it was Vertical.

Stasi 2.0

lucernarian wrote: »

apartments mostly....People dependent on rabbit ears.

People in apartments should not be "dependent on rabbit ears" Television broadcasting networks are designed on the assumption that viewers are using outdoor 10-18 element aerials at least 10 meters above ground level.

Nobody would live in an apartment without indoor plumbing so why are so many people in this day and age willing to buy apartments without communal TV/FM aerials and dishes ? Why do planners even allow them to be built ?

The Cush

In preparation for the 700 MHz band clearance RTÉ has published 2 tenders for antenna replacement at various sites

Large UHF Antennas
Lot 1-7 Turnkey Supply and helicopter installation of antennas
Lot 8 Receive Antennas

2RN invites submissions, from suitably qualified Tenderers for the supply, design, manufacture, commissioning, factory testing, site acceptance testing, delivery to site, off-loading and Installation and commissioning (where specified) of UHF Antennas and associated feeder systems and mounting hardware in the 2RN sites of:

1. Clermont Carn
2. Kippure
3. Holywell Hill
4. Castletownbere
5. Knockmoyle
6. Clifden

https://irl.eu-supply.com/app/rfq/publicpurchase_frameset.asp?PID=106369&B=ETENDERS_SIMPLE&PS=1&PP=ctm/Supplier/PublicTenders

Small UHF Antennas
Lot 1-12 Supply only of UHF antenna at 12 sites
Lot 13 Supply only of Highly Directional Receive antennas
Lot 14 Supply only of Receive antennas

2RN invites submissions, from suitably qualified Tenderers for the supply, design, manufacture, commissioning, factory testing, site acceptance testing, delivery to site, off-loading of UHF Antennas and associated feeder systems and mounting hardware in the following 2RN sites.

Moville, Gorey, Ballina, Malin, Glanmire, Clonmany, Greystones, Letterkenny, Suir Valley, Fermoy, Mitchelstown, and Monaghan.

https://irl.eu-supply.com/app/rfq/publicpurchase_frameset.asp?PID=106446&B=ETENDERS_SIMPLE&PS=1&PP=ctm/Supplier/PublicTenders

lucernarian

Stasi 2.0 wrote: »

People in apartments should not be "dependent on rabbit ears" Television broadcasting networks are designed on the assumption that viewers are using outdoor 10-18 element aerials at least 10 meters above ground level.

Nobody would live in an apartment without indoor plumbing so why are so many people in this day and age willing to buy apartments without communal TV/FM aerials and dishes ? Why do planners even allow them to be built ?

In the case of Drogheda, it's the also-ran town in the eyes of planners AKA Louth County Council. Furthermore, anything resembling an apartment simply doesn't have provision for normal terrestrial reception in them and indeed in places like Fitzwilliam Court, they have a similar shady outfit like Cablewatch in the Phoenix Park Racecourse apartments in Dublin.

There is no CATV in the town whatsoever, barring locally-ran schemes that died when RTÉ joined SKY over a decade ago. There's also circumstantial factors regarding economics, employment, commutability to Dublin, not so many registered voters that live in the apartments in town, that all can be factored in.

Notwithstanding that, by Saorview's own map, large portions of the town would not be able to receive reliable reception at 10m above ground level with a contract aerial anyway...

@The Cush, where did you hear about it being on the agenda? I approached RTÉ about this years ago and mentioned site/tenant issues (AKA cost) for the originally-planned relay.

The Cush

lucernarian wrote: »

@The Cush, where did you hear about it being on the agenda? I approached RTÉ about this years ago and mentioned site/tenant issues (AKA cost) for the originally-planned relay.

Comreg commissioned report on behalf of the Dept. of Communications. This time around the new site cost issue is being covered by the Depts. 700 MHz repurposing cost compensation mechanism.

lucernarian

The Cush wrote: »

Comreg commissioned report on behalf of the Dept. of Communications. This time around the new site cost issue is being covered by the Depts. 700 MHz repurposing cost compensation mechanism.

That map shows a misleading hypothetical coverage/interference pattern for Drogheda based on existing sites, which is not really in keeping with Saorview's current map. I doubt that lower frequencies used by Clermont Carn would make such a dramatic difference to the current blackspots.

Considering the last proposal came apart, I wouldn't be all that optimistic especially if the report doesn't consider the number of people who have no coverage to begin with, as opposed to those who have coverage now and would lose it. There's already a need for an infill site and that was ultimately disregarded by the authorities.

Going by the data on Wicklow, the same could be said for there!

On a related note, some of my family are set to lose Saorview reception even if a relay is provided, because of interference issues

The European Parliaments Industry Committee has voted to secure the future of the 500 & 600 Mhz bands for tv broadcasts. Plans for mobile network operators to be allowed to use the frequencies for downlink access have been dropped it seems. Also countries don't have to clear the 700 Mhz band until 2022, instead of 2020, if its necessary and can be justified.

http://www.a516digital.com/2017/01/ebu-welcomes-terrestrial-tv-frequency.html

Mickey Mike

That is good news coming from Europe, of course we need the 500 and 600 MHz UHF band for television and its plenty (for all we have). Clearance can be delayed till 2022, you would imagine they can move a bit quicker.
I hope the EBU play a part in pushing more HD channels on DTT.

The Cush

Deleted User wrote: »

The European Parliaments Industry Committee has voted to secure the future of the 500 & 600 Mhz bands for tv broadcasts. Plans for mobile network operators to be allowed to use the frequencies for downlink access have been dropped it seems. Also countries don't have to clear the 700 Mhz band until 2022, instead of 2020, if its necessary and can be justified.

http://www.a516digital.com/2017/01/ebu-welcomes-terrestrial-tv-frequency.html

Just another step in the codecision procedure between EU Council & Parliament for a Decision on the UHF band initiated by the EU Commission last Feb.

The Parliament's ITRE committee voted to accept the interinstitutional compromise text of the Decision agreed in mid Dec. It next moves to the Parliament's Plenary sitting in mid March for a first and final reading and vote - https://www.ebu.ch/news/2017/01/eu-uhf-spectrum-agreement-will-safeguard-future-of-free-to-air-tv-distribution.

The EU Council's equivalent committee, Coreper I, voted to accept the compromise text just over a week ago - http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2017/01/20-better-connectivity-europe-700-mhz-deal/

Following the Parliament's vote it goes back to the full Council for a final vote and publication of the final text of the Decision which will lock down the remainder of the UHF band for broadcasting purposes until at least 2030 amongst other proposals.

The Cush

Mickey Mike wrote: »

Clearance can be delayed till 2022, you would imagine they can move a bit quicker.

Ireland will have cleared the band by 5th March 2020, making it available from that date for mobile services. The UK will be similar.

Countries like Italy and Spain will have problems clearing the band due the high dependence on DTT by their populations and the number of muxes in use, so they will require the extra years to migrate services.

At the other end of the scale Germany, France and Finland have already auctioned off the 700MHz band. France has already cleared the band around the Paris region with 4G already in use. Finland has fully cleared the band and 4G services can start nationwide from this Wed, Feb 1st.

Sweden cancelled its planned auction scheduled for 1st Dec to re-evaluate the spectrum requirements for defence, public safety and health authorities.

The Cush

Digital UK, the organisation tasked with the technical co-ordination of the 700MHz clearance programme, announced on Fri that the Selkirk transmitter will be the first to begin migration from the 700 MHz band on March 1st.

Selkirk transmitter details - https://ukfree.tv/transmitters/tv/Selkirk (disregard the 2019 frequency plan as they're incorrect). The post clearance frequency plan is expected to be 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 48, pending successful coordination.

Only 1 multiplex will migrate on this date, BBC A which carries BBC1, BBC2 etc., from UHF 50 to UHF 32. The old frequency will simulcast for a period of 4 weeks, switching off 29th March. The other 5 muxes in the 700 MHz band will migrate at a later date to be announced.

The Selkirk and Angus transmitters in Scotland were the first to have their broadcasting antennas upgraded last summer in preparation for the 700MHz band clearance.

The Cush

http://www.cept.org/ecc/tools-and-services/ecc-700-mhz-coordination-information-repository/

Useful link for anyone interested in the status of the coordination process