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Future of terrestrial broadcasting in the UHF band?

  • 15-02-2014 10:19pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,852 ✭✭✭✭


    Earlier this week Comreg published a preliminary consultation on the future management and use of the UHF band (470 - 790 MHz) in Ireland.

    As expected one of the issues discussed is the release of the 700MHz band (694 - 790 MHz) for mobile broadband and other uses, aka Digital Dividend 2, from Nov 2015 (post WRC-15). This will no doubt happen here in due course.

    Also discussed is the future of the remaining part of the UHF broadcasting spectrum (470 - 694 MHz).
    6.10 At a global level, agenda item 1.1 of WRC-15 seeks to consider additional spectrum allocations to mobile services on a primary basis and to identify additional frequency bands for IMT, in order to facilitate the development of terrestrial mobile broadband applications in accordance with Resolution 233 (WRC-12). The remainder of the UHF band, 470 – 694 MHz, is currently being considered as a candidate band for study under this agenda item.

    6.11 In addition, the future of the UHF band is under consideration by CEPT and the EC recently formed a high level advisory group to advise it on this issue and has also issued a request for an Opinion by the RSPG on the issue.

    6.12 Given the on-going debate at an international level, and noting that a number of countries have already begun a public debate on this issue, ComReg is seeking the views of interested parties with regard to Ireland‘s use of the remainder of the UHF band i.e. 470 – 694 MHz, and how any such use should be balanced between the needs of existing uses and potential new uses.

    Of course no matter what decisions are made at WRC-15 there is no requirement on national authorities to change their current use.


«13456

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    This will no doubt happen here in due course.

    It shouldn't, not anywhere. The Consumer is being sacrificed for short term revenue selling licences.

    We need Terrestrial TV. In the future it's likely to need more spectrum. The original so called Digital Dividend will not deliver a single Broadband connection, just add some Mobile capacity. The only real dividend was the Licence Revenue.

    Comreg with no consultation or sense or democratic input already decided some time ago to work toward abolishing terrestrial TV.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,852 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    watty wrote: »
    It shouldn't, not anywhere.

    You know it'll happen.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Not a happy thought.

    Where are all the nice stuff my books and comics promised for 21st Century? It seems the consumer dystopia forecast by some of the darker cynical writers has arrived early.

    Philip K Dick, John Brunner, Robert Sheckley, Ben Bova (esp Homeworld Trilogy), Brian Aldiss, George Orwell, HG wells, Harry Harrison, Bob Shaw.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭STB


    The Cush wrote: »
    Also discussed is the future of the remaining part of the UHF broadcasting spectrum (470 - 694 MHz).

    What Comreg need is a picture for that frequency block.

    800px-Digital_broadcast_standards.svg.png


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,852 ✭✭✭✭The Cush




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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,148 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    If we are to follow them, we need to appoint the consultants this week, and get them to report really quickly by, say, this time next year. Then we need to set up an experimental system to test the technology - best to use a Swedish company as they will know about it by then. That will take two years at least.

    Then we need to go into a trial phase for another two years with perhaps a French company. We should then launch the new system, after a tender contest between rival consortiums, and following the awarding of the licence (to the Dutch entry), run it all in parallel with the current DVB-T1 system for at least two further years so that the viewers can get used to the idea. Should take us upto 2021 at least, but probably 2025.

    By which time, it will be replaced by fibre-to-the-home system operated by Sky.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Policy is being driven by those with deepest pockets. Not by logic, common sense or what is the best technical solution nor best for consumer.
    :(

    No testing is needed. The technology to do what ever you want (Mobile 4G or DTT) on VHF or UHF is in use over 5 years.

    Scrap DAB and have all Band III for TV if you like though. A DVB-T receiver works better than DAB anyway. Though unlike Digital TV which is OK, Digital Radio of any kind is fairly stupid.

    Comreg will go with whatever gives most Licence Revenue.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,568 ✭✭✭Gerry Wicklow


    If we are to follow them, we need to appoint the consultants this week, and get them to report really quickly by, say, this time next year. Then we need to set up an experimental system to test the technology - best to use a Swedish company as they will know about it by then. That will take two years at least.

    Then we need to go into a trial phase for another two years with perhaps a French company. We should then launch the new system, after a tender contest between rival consortiums, and following the awarding of the licence (to the Dutch entry), run it all in parallel with the current DVB-T1 system for at least two further years so that the viewers can get used to the idea. Should take us upto 2021 at least, but probably 2025.

    By which time, it will be replaced by fibre-to-the-home system operated by Sky.
    Don't forget that we first need to hire consultants to decide if we need to form a committee to hold a tribunal to have an enquiry into whether we need to hire consultants to investigate the cost of holding a tribunal on the cost of hiring consultants to decide if we need a committee..............

    :D:D:D


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,148 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Don't forget that we first need to hire consultants to decide if we need to form a committee to hold a tribunal to have an enquiry into whether we need to hire consultants to investigate the cost of holding a tribunal on the cost of hiring consultants to decide if we need a committee..............

    :D:D:D


    I gave the shorter version. The one that takes only 11 years and cost just €150 million (at todays prices).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Then after all that Comreg will do exactly what they had previously decided.

    I'm not joking. Have you seen any of their consultations and compared the final outcome with reading between the lines at the start?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 422 ✭✭_John C


    So when this happens we will have to tell customers with C/D aerials "You will need a new aerial" :mad:

    Wow, What a load of bull.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,852 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    _John C wrote: »
    So when this happens we will have to tell customers with C/D aerials "You will need a new aerial" :mad:

    This change will require a major replanning of the DTT spectrum which will probably include a reduction in the number of frequencies allocated per transmitter now (8 MFNs + 1 SFN) and could include a change to the DVB-T2 standard to compensate for the loss of spectrum.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 299 ✭✭Copyerselveson


    I would scrap DAB altogether and free up the Band III spectrum for DVB-T2. Since radio is already being broadcast on DVB-T why not market sound only receivers for cars etc.?

    I can see Ireland switching to DVB-T2 to save scarce spectrum and shift all remaining major channels to HD.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,852 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    I would scrap DAB altogether and free up the Band III spectrum for DVB-T2. Since radio is already being broadcast on DVB-T why not market sound only receivers for cars etc.?

    Ireland has 1 national DTT VHF frequency allocated under the GE06 in addition to its DAB allocations.

    Our DTT network isn't designed for in-car/mobile reception (RCP2), it's designed around fixed reception (RCP1) - https://tech.ebu.ch/docs/techreview/trev_2009-Q4_Spectrum_Brugger.pdf


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,148 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    If we accept that pay-tv is dead, it is unlikely that more than 4 muxes will ever be needed. If the next muxes are DVB-T2, then migration to that standard would give us sufficient channels for any likely/expected requirement. We could then release some UHF to other uses, not necessarily mobile phones. Use for point to point broadband would be efficient as the same channel could be reused many times compared to broadcast.

    Details are needed before a proper consultation/decision can be arrived at imho.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,852 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    Use for point to point broadband would be efficient as the same channel could be reused many times compared to broadcast.
    Any UHF spectrum released will be harmonised throughout Europe, Comreg won't be going it alone as was done with MMDS previously (economies of scale etc.). The UHF spectrum will be used for broadcasting and PMSE, future released spectrum will be sold off to the mobile operators and the interleaved spectrum will be used for WSD.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    If we accept that pay-tv is dead, it is unlikely that more than 4 muxes will ever be needed. I


    What about:
    Stereoscopic TV
    True 3D TV
    96 FPS progressive or other better frame rate than 25FPS interlaced 50Hz
    Higher resolution TV


    Once the spectrum is pissed off on poor performance Mobile we will never get it back.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,852 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    The Electronic Communications Committee (ECC) within CEPT, today, published a draft report on the long-term future for the UHF broadcasting band in Europe for public consultation.

    The report is part of the a major discussion in Europe on the future of the UHF broadcasting band since it was added as an agenda item for WRC2015 during WRC2012.

    Two WRC2015 agenda items on the UHF band were added at WRC2012. The ECC draft report published today relates to agenda item 1.1
    1.1 to consider additional spectrum allocations to the mobile service on a primary basis and identification of additional frequency bands for International Mobile Telecommunications (IMT) and related regulatory provisions, to facilitate the development of terrestrial mobile broadband applications, in accordance with Resolution 233 (WRC-12); [Amongst the bands under consideration is 470-694 MHz]

    1.2 to examine the results of ITU-R studies, in accordance with Resolution 232 (WRC-12), on the use of the frequency band 694-790 MHz by the mobile, except aeronautical mobile, service in Region 1 and take the appropriate measures;

    http://www.itu.int/oth/R1201000001/en

    ECC Press Release - http://www.cept.org/ecc/ecc-consults-on-draft-report-setting-context-for-a-long-term-vision-for-uhf
    Draft Report - http://www.cept.org/files/1051/Tools%20and%20Services/Public%20Consultations/2014/Draft%20ECC%20Rep224.docx


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,852 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    Ofcom also published a consultation last week on it preparations for WRC2015

    http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/consultations/wrc15/


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,852 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    With the discussion about the future of broadcasting in the UHF band underway for WRC2015 Nokia launched a national LTE TV trial in Germany last month using a single frequency network from 4 transmitters.
    - http://www.broadbandtvnews.com/2014/07/29/nokia-in-national-lte-tv-trial/
    - http://advanced-television.com/2014/07/29/nokia-trials-lte-for-national-tv-broadcasting/

    At the end of July the EBU published a study on the delivery of broadcast content over LTE networks which concludes "it is not realistic to expect that LTE will become a viable alternative to broadcast distribution, including terrestrial TV networks (DTT), in the foreseeable future".
    - http://advanced-television.com/2014/08/01/ebu-lte-not-on-for-broadcast/
    - http://www.broadbandtvnews.com/2014/08/01/ebu-questions-lte-tv-viability/

    - EBU press release - https://tech.ebu.ch/Jahia/site/tech/cache/offonce/news/ebu-publishes-study-on-the-delivery-of-b-31jul14;jsessionid=A931E1F897A89C20BBC30464065BE6E0.jahia1
    - EBU Study - https://tech.ebu.ch/docs/techreports/tr027.pdf

    Earlier this year the EBU pubished a number of studies into broadcast TV over mobile networks which concluded it was too costly and not a good use of spectrum.
    - https://tech.ebu.ch/news/mass-linear-tv-content-via-cellular-netw-26may14


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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,148 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    ^^^ Is that good news?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,852 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    ^^^ Is that good news?

    Remains to be seen. Terrestrial broadcasting in the UHF band, albeit reduced in size, will be around until at least 2030 by all accounts but beyond that who knows. The Nokia trial could be the beginning of the end of terrestrial broadcasting as we know it.

    That being said Holland has published a consulatation of the future use of its UHF broadcast band once the DTT licences expire in 2017, over 90% of Dutch households have a cable TV connection.
    - http://www.broadbandtvnews.com/2014/07/07/decision-on-future-of-dutch-dtt-in-2015/
    - http://advanced-television.com/2014/07/07/dutch-debate-dtt-future/


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,852 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    Comreg yesterday published its response to the preliminary public consultation on the management and use of the UHF radio frequency band (470 – 790 MHz) in Ireland which was publised last Feb.

    http://www.comreg.ie/publications/response_to_consultation_14_13_on_the_management_and_use_of_the_uhf_radio_frequency_band_in_ireland.583.104670.p.html

    Nothing new that stands out in the response other than the feedback submitted from the various interested parties like RTÉ, 2RN, etc.

    2RN from their submission "it would be prudent to expect and plan for at least 3, or possibly 4, high quality national multiplexes in Ireland. 2RN recognises that the Broadcasting Act 2009 specifies that 6 multiplexes must be accommodated. This requirement clearly needs revision, and while it contains no direct reference to spectrum, it was enacted at a time when the entire 470 to 862MHz band was available for broadcast use"

    RTÉ from their submission "While there is provision for up to 9 DTT multiplexes in the 800MHz Clearance Plan*, it is important to recognise that this does not represent 9 equal layers. In particular it would be incorrect for any readers to assert that the DTT platform in Ireland currently uses only 2/9ths of the 470 to 790MHz band. Any practical implementation of the 800MHz Clearance Plan could result in 2 layers with a high level of similar national coverage (up to 98%), 4 layers of broadly similar near national coverage (but somewhat less than 98%), and a further 3 layers of reduced coverage. Practical implementations of more than the 2 initial layers would have implications for the potential coverage of each of the layers, and their use would impact existing viewers. This is an important point as it highlights the extensive interdependencies and compromises within the 800MHz Clearance Plan, and that the unused layers do not represent exclusive and separate clean spectrum"

    It looks like the future revised spectrum plan (and revised Broadcasting Act) will reduce the number of national DTT layers to four now that commercial DTT is unlikely to happen.

    The next step for Comreg is to carry out a Cost Benefit Analysis of clearing the 700MHz band.

    *Current Geneva 2006 Plan (GE06), revised in 2012 and internationally coordinated with the UK (800MHz Clearance Plan) - http://www.ofcom.org.uk/static/broadcasting/Web_Ireland_United%20Kingdom%20800MHz%20DTT%20Clearance%20Agreement_06July12.pdf


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,852 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    The Dept of Communications has also commenced a review of national spectrum policy and a public consultation document was issued on 24 July.

    http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/Press+Releases/2014/Minister+White+launches+consultation+on+Spectrum+Policy.htm
    http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/Communications/Communications+Policy/Consultations/

    The consultation follows on from a Dept of Comms broadcaster stakeholder group (UHF Spectrum Policy Review Group) report on the future use of UHF spectrum for broadcasting in Ireland which was completed last May


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,518 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    The Cush wrote: »
    RTÉ from their submission "While there is provision for up to 9 DTT multiplexes in the 800MHz Clearance Plan*, it is important to recognise that this does not represent 9 equal layers. In particular it would be incorrect for any readers to assert that the DTT platform in Ireland currently uses only 2/9ths of the 470 to 790MHz band. Any practical implementation of the 800MHz Clearance Plan could result in 2 layers with a high level of similar national coverage (up to 98%), 4 layers of broadly similar near national coverage (but somewhat less than 98%), and a further 3 layers of reduced coverage. Practical implementations of more than the 2 initial layers would have implications for the potential coverage of each of the layers, and their use would impact existing viewers. This is an important point as it highlights the extensive interdependencies and compromises within the 800MHz Clearance Plan, and that the unused layers do not represent exclusive and separate clean spectrum"

    So if we go beyond 2 muxes in future, some areas might only have 'saorview lite' with only the 2 main muxes.

    I didn't get the chance to look at the documents but is there the possibility of using SFNs again in the future to increase coverage / allow future enhanced services like 4K while still allowing for four or more muxes?

    In Cavan there was a great fire / Judge McCarthy was sent to inquire / It would be a shame / If the nuns were to blame / So it had to be caused by a wire.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,148 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Why was the SFN of 3rock and Kippure ended?


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Why was the SFN of 3rock and Kippure ended?

    I don't know if an official reason was ever given but some suspected that the close proximity of mux 2 to the LTE frequencies was to blame.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2 Motala


    Also something was mentioned about the distance between Three Rock & Kippure (about 9.5 km) being greater than the distance the signal travels (about 8.4 km) within the 28 μs guard interval used by the Saorview transmissions, meaning they could interfere with each other at some locations. (NE Dublin say, where the tight angle between transmitters would cause the discrepancy to become apparent.)

    Maybe this turned out to be more of a problem than originally envisaged?


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,148 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Would be good to know for certain. SFNs could be used more to save spectrum.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,852 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    I didn't get the chance to look at the documents but is there the possibility of using SFNs again in the future to increase coverage / allow future enhanced services like 4K while still allowing for four or more muxes?

    The only mention of SFN's is in the stakeholders report for the Dept, national SFNs don't appear to be an option in the near future
    Different network topologies are possible with both DVB-T and DVB-T2. The two main categories are Multi-Frequency-Networks (MFNs) which require different frequencies for transmission sites with overlapping coverage, and Single Frequency Networks (SFNs) which allow a single frequency to be reused at some or all sites. Although SFNs reduce the amount of overall spectrum used there is a trade-off in terms of capacity, coverage (due to selfinterference), and network complexity/cost. DVB-T2 has better SFN capabilities than DVB-T. Note that while many European countries have adopted some level of small scale or regional SFNs, successful large scale SFNs are still unproven.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 11 Loos


    Motala wrote: »
    Also something was mentioned about the distance between Three Rock & Kippure (about 9.5 km) being greater than the distance the signal travels (about 8.4 km) within the 28 μs guard interval used by the Saorview transmissions, meaning they could interfere with each other at some locations.

    Another thing, working as a SFN means both sites' outputs are combined for interference-causing purposes (using Three Rock's allocation).

    Using different frequencies means each can operate independently. (Comreg technical parameters shows the full 125-odd kilowatts from Three Rock on chs. 30 & 33, whereas it was only half this when SFN with Kippure.)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,852 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    Loos wrote: »
    (Comreg technical parameters shows the full 125-odd kilowatts from Three Rock on chs. 30 & 33, whereas it was only half this when SFN with Kippure.)
    2RN's own figures indicate a max EPR of 63kW for Three Rock (Nov2013) - http://www.saorview.ie/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/2RN-DTT-Television-Transmission-Network-Nov-2013.pdf


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,852 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    The Euopean Commission has published a report (Lamy Report) on the future use of the UHF band. Compiled by a High-Level group of top executives from Europe's broadcasters, network operators, mobile companies and tech associations chaired by Pascal Lamy (former Director-General of the World Trade Organization). The group was formed last Jan.
    The Report's UHF proposals

    The 700 MHz band (694-790 MHz) should be repurposed for wireless broadband, but with sufficient lead time to ensure a transition path that minimises cost for spectrum users and citizens and to accommodate the diversity in penetration levels of terrestrial broadcasting within Europe. This implies a time frame of around 2020, plus or minus 2 years.

    Regulatory stability should be ensured for broadcasting to continue its current use of the band 470-694 MHz until 2030. This involves national, EU and international measures. In consequence, at the World Radiocommunication Conference 2015 (which will review and revise global spectrum-use rules) Europe should reject any plans for primary allocation of mobile to the 470-694 MHz band which is currently already allocated to broadcasting on a primary basis. Some flexibility could nevertheless be catered for through the development of 'down link only' technologies that give priority to primary broadcasting networks.

    In order to take into account the evolving change in consumer demand as well as new technologies, such as converged networks or large-scale roll out of optic fibre, a stock-taking exercise of UHF spectrum use should be performed by 2025. It would give Europe the opportunity to re-assess where we stand and avoid any freeze of regulation compared to the rapid advance in technology and consumer behaviour.

    https://ec.europa.eu/digital-agenda/en/news/report-results-work-high-level-group-future-use-uhf-band
    http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-14-957_en.htm
    http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-14-511_en.htm

    The EBU's response - http://www3.ebu.ch/contents/news/2014/09/european-public-broadcasters-rea.html

    http://www.euractiv.com/sections/infosociety/mobile-operators-get-exclusive-use-700-mhz-uhf-spectrum-band-2020-308099


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 618 ✭✭✭TAFKAlawhec


    I reckon it's inevitable that the '700MHz' band is going to be lost from broadcasting and shifted to mobile communication services at least in ITU region 1 by the end of this decade.

    However I'd question the value of letting go of any more UHF broadcast spectrum for mobile use in the long term - as things already stand with the likes of 4G we're already getting very close to the Shannon limit of spectral efficiency, and most developments in terms of bringing higher mobile data speeds are now involving wider bandwidth usage along with the likes of pushing the boundaries of guard bands, modulation etc. Using sub-1Ghz frequencies, especially concerning its propagation characteristics, isn't likely to result in significantly better throughput compared to what is already being done with LTE with TDD and channel bonding which really requires higher frequencies acting as micro & nano cells to achieve desired results - at least in much of Europe anyway, things may pan out differently in less densely populated countries.

    Eventually if national goals of very fast connectivity to practically every home is to be achieved then the laying of fibre optic cable to the home (FTTH) is going to have to be as ubiquitous as twisted-copper pair phone lines are right now. No amount of further sacrificing of UHF broadcast spectrum is going to be an adequate alternative. A bit like the Australian NBN plan before it got castrated.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,460 ✭✭✭reboot


    I reckon it's inevitable that the '700MHz' band is going to be lost from broadcasting and shifted to mobile communication services at least in ITU region 1 by the end of this decade.

    However I'd question the value of letting go of any more UHF broadcast spectrum for mobile use in the long term - as things already stand with the likes of 4G we're already getting very close to the Shannon limit of spectral efficiency, and most developments in terms of bringing higher mobile data speeds are now involving wider bandwidth usage along with the likes of pushing the boundaries of guard bands, modulation etc. Using sub-1Ghz frequencies, especially concerning its propagation characteristics, isn't likely to result in significantly better throughput compared to what is already being done with LTE with TDD and channel bonding which really requires higher frequencies acting as micro & nano cells to achieve desired results - at least in much of Europe anyway, things may pan out differently in less densely populated countries.

    Eventually if national goals of very fast connectivity to practically every home is to be achieved then the laying of fibre optic cable to the home (FTTH) is going to have to be as ubiquitous as twisted-copper pair phone lines are right now. No amount of further sacrificing of UHF broadcast spectrum is going to be an adequate alternative. A bit like the Australian NBN plan before it got castrated.

    What a very interesting and well informed thread, covering a wide range of technologies.
    I have recently read,must go back and check it, of a Laser system which may be capable of replacing fibre optics. assume it will penetrate clouds, but may have to be line of site?
    There is also mention of Li-Fi with Led lights, work sunder water etc.The chatter on Satellite radio seems to have come and gone. Take the well made point on trying to organize anything seems easier in China.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,852 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    Back in May Ofcom published a consultation on the future use of the 700 MHz band - http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/consultations/700MHz

    Today Ofcom published its decision - http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/consultations/700MHz/statement/

    Main points are
    - decision to make spectrum in the 700 MHz band available for mobile data use
    - vewers will not need to take any action until around 2019
    - the only impact of this decision on most viewers will be that they need to retune their televisions
    - wider adoption of DVB-T2 not necessary
    - objective is to make the band available for mobile by the start of 2022 and sooner if possible

    What this means for Ireland, a revised DTT frequency plan. The last bilateral agreement between the 2 countries was for the 800MHz clearance plan - http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/broadcasting/guidance/tech-guidance/agreements/
    Agreement of a DTT frequency plan: We will need to agree a revised DTT frequency plan with neighbouring states in order to manage the impact of interference between services in different countries.
    ...
    Change of use of the 700 MHz band will mean that DTT services will no longer be able to use the spectrum between 694 MHz - 790 MHz. In order for the change to take place, we will therefore need to develop, and internationally co-ordinate, a revised frequency plan which delivers DTT services in the remaining broadcast spectrum.
    ...
    the outcome of the international frequency planning and co-ordination process, [] is unlikely to conclude before the end of 2015
    ...
    International frequency planning negotiations are at an early stage. Therefore we do not at this time have certainty over the final frequency plan.
    ...
    we recognise that timelines for this project are not solely determined by the time it takes to modify DTT infrastructure but are also affected by other factors such as the speed of progress in international frequency planning negotiations. At this stage we are therefore not committing to a specific date for project completion

    http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/binaries/consultations/700MHz/statement/700-mhz-statement.pdf

    http://www.broadbandtvnews.com/2014/11/19/ofcom-backs-700mhz-dtt-switch/
    http://advanced-television.com/2014/11/19/ofcom-opens-up-700-mhz-for-mobile-broadband/


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I can't see how this would be doable without shutting down transmitters or using SFNs. Certainly stinks of an attempt to abolish broadcast as predicted by Watty.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,852 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    Karsini wrote: »
    Certainly stinks of an attempt to abolish broadcast as predicted by Watty.

    Not just watty, the EBU and other organisations have been lobbying against this erosion of TV spectrum for many years now, since DD1 (UHF61-69) was first proposed back in the early 2000s.

    b9d66e.jpg


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/11/19/ofcom_700mhz_digital_terrestrial_tv_mobile_data/

    It's about "captured" Regulators (Ofcom, Comreg and others) and Periodic Dollops of Money from Mobile Operators to Treasury (UK) or Finance (Ireland).
    I first warned about this in about 2005.

    The Broadcasters are not helping either by handing the market to Netflix and DVD boxed sets due to crap content/schedules chasing a lowest common denominator, too much imports and self destructive fascination with "Digital" which for them means Twitter, badly done online content, haphazard Web Sites, Poorly done Interactive replacement of Teletext, Stupid Digital Radio (Digital TV is better than Analogue TV, Digital Radio is inherently worse than Analogue Radio) ill thought out OTT services. Did I mention rubbish content and Schedules?

    The Digital Dividend = Money for Government.

    Comreg had the cheek to tell me their aim was to abolish Broadcast TV. It can not be replaced by Cable/Satellite /IPTV.

    Reducing spectrum FOREVER rules out adding lots of low power Fill TX in so DTT will work on portable TV or Mobile Phones with a DTT RX, a FAR greener and more efficient solution than ANY other method of delivering 20 TV and 30 Radio to Mobile/portable / Car. It would also make DAB a pointless duplication.

    Comments
    http://forums.theregister.co.uk/forum/1/2014/11/19/ofcom_700mhz_digital_terrestrial_tv_mobile_data/
    Future?

    What about proper HD 1920 x 1080 on all channels rather than 544 x 576 and 1440 x 1080?

    What about if real 3D is invented rather than fake Sterescopic?

    What about Portable or Transportable TV?

    IPTV only works for more than about 1% of viewers if it's Broadcast anyway... It's complementary to DTT, never a replacement. Mobile Phone IPTV is a complete non-starter unless it's Broadcast in disguise (which would likely be paytv only).

    This is a stupid money grab by regulator. Also will not have decent mast density and coverage. Smaller cells (= More capacity) with x5 as many masts for 900MHz and above is a FAR better Mobile Solution.

    Development of TV crippled.

    The "Digital Dividend"? = Money for Regulator and lower costs for Mobile Operators with no significant increase in Rural coverage or performance. Nothing else for public.

    What if TV channels started producing decent content?

    Mobile is getting priority purely due to "captured" Regulator and periodic Licence fee cash boosts to Treasury (which comes from Mobile customers).

    There should be a single Wholesale infrastructure with free licence and money to Treasury from the VAT etc of the Services.

    6 thumbs up


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 655 ✭✭✭RED L4 0TH


    I notice Film 4+1 has been shifted on to the BBC-B Mux in the last week or so. It's ch 24 from Divis. Won't everything have to go on to the DVB-T2 standard if they want to narrow the spectrum down further?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,852 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    RED L4 0TH wrote: »
    Won't everything have to go on to the DVB-T2 standard if they want to narrow the spectrum down further?

    No according to the statement Ofcom published this week
    5.2.2 We believe it is possible to implement the re-plan in a manner without materially affecting DTT coverage or channel line-up and we do not believe wider adoption of DVB-T2 is necessary to accomplish this objective;

    ...

    the frequency planning studies we have undertaken indicate that we will be able to accomplish our objectives without migrating additional multiplexes to DVB-T2. We believe our decision leaves the DTT platform latitude to grow. If demand for capacity on the DTT platform were to increase in the future (either due to increases in demand for HD services or due to demand for more SD services), multiplex operators could meet this demand by migrating more multiplexes to DVB-T2.

    However, we do not consider this to be a pre-condition for change of use of the 700 MHz band and believe that industry, rather than Ofcom, should take the lead in developing the roadmap for the future evolution of the DTT platform. We recognise that if demand did increase to a certain level, licensees would need to migrate more multiplexes to DVB-T2 in case of change of use of the 700 MHz band than the otherwise would have.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 655 ✭✭✭RED L4 0TH


    The Cush wrote: »
    No according to the statement Ofcom published this week

    Cheers. Why was Film 4+1 put on a T2 Mux?

    EDIT: discussion over on DS here: http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showthread.php?t=2024693


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    With rubbish policing of Spectrum, bean counters & Mobile Operators in control, promotion of so called "White Space" fantasy, no policing of RF interfering LED and CFL lighting, SMPSUs in chargers, set boxes and Screens etc, Captured Regulators, no policing of illegal gadget imports, faked or hopelessly optimistic self Certified CE marks, public indifference due to poor content etc, Terrestrial Broadcasting of all kinds is doomed. Then the Mobile operators will introduce Subscription only "radio" and "TV" that is technically only broadcasting, but only available on Phone Gadgets (so they can bill). It will have poor coverage, poor bitrate and the content of today's FTA AM, FM, DAB and DTT.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,518 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Watty, I fear you are being too optimistic... :(

    In Cavan there was a great fire / Judge McCarthy was sent to inquire / It would be a shame / If the nuns were to blame / So it had to be caused by a wire.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,148 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    We look like going Satellite or DVB-T2 at the very least. As long as we retain some capability - otherwise the Sky is the limit.:(


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,278 ✭✭✭Thurston?


    We look like going Satellite or DVB-T2 at the very least.

    If the UK think they can cram everything in without more DVB-T2, why would we need to switch?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    We don't, unless there are more channels and ALL channels are 1920 x 1080 (at the minute HD on Irish Terrestrial is inferior anamorphic approximately 1440 x 1080 and very inferior 544 x 576 rather than 1920 x 1080 and anamorphic 720 x 576.
    For SD Widescreen at decent resolution it ought to be 1024 x 576! But there is no such Digital Standard, because SD Digital is only about matching AVERAGE Analogue! Or even having lower quality to reduce costs!


    The 544 x 576 is only equivalent to WS anamorphic SD at 720 x 576 if it's a 4:3 frame image.

    If we wanted to upgrade to have portable / Mobile / indoor aerial coverage, which we SHOULD have had, massive missed opportunity as coverage is designed for roof aerials, the fill in "relays" need additional channels. They can't be SFN.
    If we wanted real regional opt outs, you can't have SFN either.

    Regional TV in Cork, Limerick, Galway/Mayo, Border & North West, Midlands, East and South East?

    All of UK and Ireland had regional Radio in 1930s, killed by WWII. It returned in UK in 1971! Here there was a small amount of regional radio after WWII in Cork.

    So if we continue as we are with a totally minimalist TV equivalent to 1962 Irish VHF Radio, then we don't need DVB-T2.

    But if Ireland was ever to have sensible, relevant easy to receive TV, have ability to roll out new TV technology etc, then even giving up the 790 to 862 was stupid.

    No one is going to get real Broadband from the 700MHz - 790MHz and 790MHz to 862MHz sell offs (So called Digital Dividend). They won't even get any Mobile Internet or voice coverage that couldn't have been done by better use of existing 900, 1800 and 2100MHz.
    Mobile is also getting the 2500 to 2600MHz ex MMDS
    Eircom has be squatting and misusing the 2300MHz band for years.

    So it's PURELY about cash injections to Finance Dept via Comreg on each licence sell off, crippling TV broadcast possibilities for ever and giving NOTHING to the people of Ireland, while slightly reducing costs of the Foreign Mobile Operators (Eircom-Meteor-eMobile is a Foreign Company, so is Vodafone, O2 Ireland now sold to Three was Spanish Telefonica, Three is Hong Kong and one of the worst operators on the Planet as everything except selling phone contracts is outsourced. Even most of that is run from Three's big campus for all their countries in India).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Watty, I fear you are being too optimistic... :(

    Yes, it's true. But I'll strive to paint a more honest picture in the future.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,148 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Thurston? wrote: »
    If the UK think they can cram everything in without more DVB-T2, why would we need to switch?

    Which is why Film4+1 has moved to DVB-T2?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,278 ✭✭✭Thurston?


    Which is why Film4+1 has moved to DVB-T2?

    There was space available on the PSB3 mux, they didn't have to convert a DVB-T mux. It's seemingly only a shuffling of services to free up a full timeslot on the SDN mux, they didn't improve the quality of Film4 +1 or anything.


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