Airgun without licence?

Seamus the hunter

i was just wondering was it possible to get a airgun without a licence for hunting would there be a hunting rifle that is any good less than 1 Joule or are they all just toys at that velocity

Cass

No firearm (and an air rifle is a firearm) can be owned, possessed, used without a license.

Anything that falls under the one joule mark (other than being less than useless) is a toy, and not suitable for hunting.

Seamus the hunter

Ok thanks that's been playing on my head for a while

1shot16

Cass wrote: »

No firearm (and an air rifle is a firearm) can be owned, possessed, used without a license.

Anything that falls under the one joule mark (other than being less than useless) is a toy, and not suitable for hunting.

There 1.5 and even 1.9j airsoft guns in shops say it on the side

Wonder if the gaurds even care

Cass

Welcome to the wonderful world Irish firearm laws.

Anything over 1 joule is classed as a firearm. Therefore needs a firearms license. Anything under is not a firearm. If an Airsoft can achieve more than 1 joule then legally it needs a firearms license. Some people regard this measurement as 328 fps, but that is not actually correct as a joule is a measurement of energy, not speed. So it differs (fps) depending on the size of the pellet/BB used.

So take four different size/weight BBs. Given they are cannot exceed 1 joule we can see the way different weight BBs can achieve this limit at different speeds.

Weight of BB

|

Speed (fps)

|

Joule(s)

|

.12

|

420

|

1

|

.15

|

375

|

1

|

.20

|

325

|

1

|

.25

|

285

|

1

|

These are only approximates. I'm sure if you venture onto the Airsoft Forum the lads & ladies there can give you much more in terms of numbers, specifics, etc.

Seamus the hunter

i should have researched that more i thought 1 joule was alot more fps

Witcher

Don't pay much attention to the power rating on air soft boxes when you see them in shops, they're all under 1 joule, the box is just kept from before they were downgraded.

1shot16

Blay wrote: »

Don't pay much attention to the power rating on air soft boxes when you see them in shops, they're all under 1 joule, the box is just kept from before they were downgraded.

There are sold in funk it where they sell grinders for weed,bongs etc im sure they down grade them to comply with the law :P

wildcatares22

afaik the fps rate is set using a .20gm BB. so lighter pellets will be faster.

Leftyflip

1shot16 wrote: »

There are sold in funk it where they sell grinders for weed,bongs etc im sure they down grade them to comply with the law :P

They're bought from actual airsoft retailers in the country though. Believe me, I know firsthand the crap involved in importing airsoft devices! They must be downgraded before they enter the country and every single one is checked!

Leftyflip

wildcatares22 wrote: »

afaik the fps rate is set using a .20gm BB. so lighter pellets will be faster.

But will still have the exact same energy, so it actually makes no difference.

loveta

Slightly veering of the topic here but i was up north "northern ireland" there last week and got chatting a guy about guns and shooting and he was telling me about his gun collection, sweet jesus 3 shotguns 4 or 5 rifles two hand guns and a air gun "sub 12ftlbs" which i dont think he needs a licence for i asked him had he not bother getting so many guns and paying all the licence fees. None he told me done/does so course on shooting and i may be mistaken but 19pounds sterling for a ten year licence....FFS why is it so hard/expensive could even go as far as to say anti guns down south when in theory a powerful airsoft gun needs a 80 euro licence

Cass

loveta wrote: »

........... he was telling me about his gun collection, sweet jesus 3 shotguns 4 or 5 rifles two hand guns and a air gun "sub 12ftlbs" .........

It's possible here. There is no legal limit on amount or how frequent a gun can be bought/licensed. During the height of my target shooting, and hunting days i had 11 guns/licenses, and between myself and the Father we had 13.

which i dont think he needs a licence for

He does. An air rifle is the exact same up north as down here. In the UK if the air rifle is under 12ft/lb, and the person over 18 (IIRC) they can purchase without an FAC. However in the North anything over 1 joule requires it to be licensed/added to FAC. Same as here.

From PSNI website;

Airguns not Requiring a Firearm Certificate

In Northern Ireland airguns and CO2 guns having a discharge kinetic energy in excess of one (1) Joule (0.737 ft lbs) require to be held on a firearm certificate. For airguns below that limit the following restrictions are in place.

• Under Paragraph 9 of Schedule 1 of the Firearms (NI) Order 2004, persons under the age of 18 cannot possess such firearms, unless they have attained the age of 14 years or are under the direct supervision of a person of 21 years or over.
• Persons not holding a firearms certificate cannot purchase such firearms, unless they have attained the age of 17 years.
• Ammunition for an airgun can be purchased and possessed without holding a firearm certificate.

..........but 19 pounds sterling for a ten year licence .........

I don't think it's that cheap. I believe it's in the region of £50 and the license must be renewed yearly. I'm open to correction on the term of the license, but it's definitely £50. I remember because there was some "hub-bub" last year about plans tto increase the fee from £50 to over £120.

....FFS why is it so hard/expensive could even go as far as to say anti guns down south when in theory a powerful airsoft gun needs a 80 euro licence

Given the figures above that would make a FAC in NI about £150 per three years. Now if that is to cover all firearms, not just one, then the more you have the more you save. If it's per firearm then it's much more expensive than our system.

It all depends on the actual fee, and the term of the license. Need someone from Ni to actually answer those two question before we can say our fees are so much more.

mallards

You get with one FAC with all guns on it. You're right it's £50 but lasts for five years. It's then a full licence application again rather than a renewal.
Cheers
Mallards

Cass

mallards wrote: »

You get with one FAC with all guns on it.

Thought as much, but there is often facts between English and NI license that get mixed up such as the fact that you don't need a license for an air rifle in the North.

You're right it's £50 but lasts for five years. It's then a full licence application again rather than a renewal.
Cheers
Mallards

So it does work out cheaper in the long run. However after 5 years you have to do it ll over again. The FCR here seems to cut that out in that you are only confirming your details are the same to continue to license the gun.

mallards

Yeah, its a pain having to get references and permissions etc again, but you can't complain for fifty bucks. One other advantage is the 'one on, one off' part of the FAC. I can walk into a gunshop, see a shotgun I fancy, swap it with one I already own. The gundealer updates my FAC with a good old fashioned pen and all I gotta do is pay him the difference in the price of the guns. The FAC update is free.

Cass

The substitution is similar to the old cert licenses we had. Get it signed, and stamped, fill in the yellow PC20/21, and you're done.

mallards

Cass wrote: »

The substitution is similar to the old cert licenses we had. Get it signed, and stamped, fill in the yellow PC20/21, and you're done.

So am I right in thinking each shooter has a seperare licence for each gun in the south? Also would the substitution also apply to air rifles etc? Up here in the north I can only substitute a shotgun .

Cass

Down here we license each gun as a new application. One gun, one license. Each one costing €80 per three years.

The substitutions are free, done whenever you want, and can be applied to any firearm. IOW no limitations on whether it's a rifle for a rifle, shotgun for a shotgun, air rifle for air rifle. There limitations on what can be subbed from a "like for like" position. IOW trading a rifle fro a shotgun is not usually done, but as with all things there are exceptions according to some lads. Personally i've never seen it done.

tac foley

Things are slightly different on mainland UK, where there are TWO kinds of shotgun license, as I'll explain later on.

However, on the subject of a Section 1 [rifled] firearm license, again slightly different on the mainland than they are in the North of Ireland, this is the current state of acquisition and payment - as has already been noted, the license or FAC lasts for five years -

Initial application - £50.00

Renewal - £40.00

Variation - if required between renewals - £26.00. This is where you would like to add another Section 1 firearm, or, if you don't already have one, a moderator [classed here as a firearm].

Variation AT renewal - £00.00.

I have 18 Section 1 firearms, so my FAC 'costs' me just£2.22 per gun per year. As Cass noted, the more guns you have, the cheaper in real terms the license costs.

Shotguns are divided into two categories -

1. Single shot/Side-by-side or over and under/semi-autos capable of hold only three cartridges ready for firing including the one in the breech.

2. Semi-auto or pump-action shotguns capable of hold more than three cartridges.

In category 1, a single license covers you to acquire and purchase ANY number of shotguns - literally one or a hundred. Unless there is/are legal reasons preventing you from owning a firearm, you cannot be refused this type of shotgun license, given only that you have somewhere legal to shoot it. Hence the roughly 6 Million shotguns legally-owned on mainland UK.

In category 2, a Section 1 FAC is required in order to acquire and possess ONE shotgun of this multiple-round capacity. Here in mainland UK, such an arm is common not only among wildfowlers, especially in 10g, but in the growing numbers of sportsmen taking part in Practical Shotgun competition.

Costs and details for either kind of shotgun license are the same as those for a Section 1 [rifled] firearm, with the exception of the smooth-bore guns I mentioned.

As air rifles over 12ft lbs ME are also classed as firearms, they too cost the same. There is no license required for air rifles below 12 ft lbs. In any case, there is no requirement for any kind of a license to buy airgun pellets, as there is in the RoI.

It's worth noting that although you only need a Class 1 Explosive's license [free of charge] to purchase black powder for those who shoot this type of firearm, you are also required to show your FAC at the time of face-to-face purchasing to show that you have 'good reason' for having it. No license is require to buy reloading propellants or bullets, but you will be asked to provide proof of 'good reason' if you are buying from a dealer who does not know you - same for primers. You can only buy the type of primer needed for your calibre/type of firearm [large/small rifle, large/small pistol/shotgun].

Hope this helps.

tac

loveta

Will have to put that guy over what he was telling me, but he mentioned some thing about a "level 2" or "cat 2" course had done/qualified as well which had some bearing on getting the amount of guns he had.Does any of ye know any thing about this or was he full of BS? Regarding the amount of guns you can hold down here i think has a lot to do with your local super, a family member who is a gun enthusiast had serious bother getting extra shot gun licence approvals now he only had 5 or 6 but 2 were collectors and one was his late fathers so in reality he was only using two guns house is wired like fort knox a safe he brought home from the states which was like some thing you would see in a bank but the super argued that "he did not need" i think is what he said all those guns

mallards

loveta wrote: »

Will have to put that guy over what he was telling me, but he mentioned some thing about a "level 2" or "cat 2" course had done/qualified as well which had some bearing on getting the amount of guns he had.Does any of ye know any thing about this or was he full of BS?

DSC 2 perhaps? (deer stalking certificate) don't really know how it would help with getting more guns though. Perhaps shows his need for the rifles? Could also be some pistol safety course?

tac foley

mallards wrote: »

DSC 2 perhaps? (deer stalking certificate) don't really know how it would help with getting more guns though. Perhaps shows his need for the rifles? Could also be some pistol safety course?

'DSC2 is a stand alone qualification but is aligned with the National Occupational Standards and can be used as evidence towards the deer elements of the Gamekeeping NVQ/SVQ if required.'

In UK you need what is called in law 'good reason' to acquire and possess any firearm. Deer-stalking as a leisure pursuit is a 'good reason', but more and more, land-owners require proof of competence before they let you loose on their land to shoot their deer - for whatever reason. So it's good to show that you are competent in carcass-handling and correct game management. This is what DSC1 shows. It is NOT a basis for acquiring more firearms. That is up to you to show that you now need a larger/smaller/additional calibre firearm to increase the personal value of your sporting experience.

DSC2 is required IF you wish to become a game-keeper or wildlife [deer] manager, especially where beasts are shot on a professional basis, either for culling or for the butcher.

Here on mainland UK there is NO pistol safety course, and never was, even before the 1997 ban on modern cartridge-firing handguns. Nor is here one for rifle safety. Perhaps somebody from the North can advise us here, but since it is still part of the UK, and, for the most part, the firearms laws are the same, I'd be very surprised to learn that there was such a course there. Gun safety is something that is instilled in you during your three or six month probationary membership of a gun club. IF you want to become a deer-stalker, then that is a different thing completely. You are REQUIRED in law to be mentored for a probationary period - again, three or six months, by a person who already has the right to shoot on that land, and only then, with HIS reference and that of two other people, can you apply for your FAC to get your rifle, just like anybody else has to do for target shooting. You CAN, of course, give BOTH 'good reasons' on your application. The NRA at Bisley DO require sight of what THEY call a 'certificate of competence' before they let you loose on the NRA ranges with certain calibres - but this is only because some gobsh!te in the Army had an ND a few years back, and sprayed the area behind the backstop with a GPMG. No other location in the UK has such a proviso.

Incidentally, being a deer-stalker entitles you to purchase soft-point/fragmenting ammunition for use on game. Possession of even a single round OR bullet of this type of ammunition without the appropriate tick on your FAC entitles you to a free 'no-defence' trial in whch you will be convicted of illegal possession of ammunition to which you are not entitled in law, and get you three to five years pokey.

tac

BTW - YOU have to pay for ALL DSC courses - the staff at whatever centre you attend will provide the rifle if you don't have one, but it's a good idea to be in possession of your own rifle beforehand, since you have to demonstrate your skill by actually using it to kill and prepare a deer in the field.