Personal responsibility in proximity to water.

miss no stars

Do love being indoors on a windy day... Love a good storm

Anyway, Howth RNLI just popped up in my facebook feed with this:

Please be careful near the coast. It is inadvisable to be walking on piers in these stormy conditions, and avoid taking to the sea unless it is absolutely necessary.

The UK Met Office shipping forecast is warning of imminent Hurricane Force 12 winds in the Irish Sea http://bbc.in/1j1Tuks

And it makes me wonder why, oh why, are people so stupid that they have to be warned not to walk on piers in hurricane force winds :mad:

Then you have idiots bringing toddlers onto piers with waves breaking over them.



During the last few storms there were people walking the East pier in Howth with no regard for the huge waves crashing over the pier. Several people were seriously injured - some of it was caught as action sequences of people being washed from the top pier to the bottom. Legs and ankles broken. They got lucky at that.


My question is, where has personal responsibility gone?


When those people were washed off the pier, they expected emergency services to come down the pier to get them, putting the emergency services at risk.

If that child had been washed into the harbour, I'm sure that man would want the lifeboat to respond - putting the volunteers at risk.

These are very obviously dangerous circumstances yet time and again we have people putting themselves smack in the middle of them, meaning they need others to put themselves at risk to come get them. This isn't like a fishing boat running for home losing engine power, this is people ignoring all warnings and being reckless with their own life, not to mention the lives of others.

Is it not time for some legislation on this one?

Like, just some bye-laws for individual areas that when the wind goes above a F8 (for example) or swell above Xm with wind from Xdirection (location dependent, obviously...), the Coast Guard has the authority to close the pier/promenade to the public and that it is an offense, punishable with a big fine to access these areas while they are closed to the public.

If people aren't going to have the cop on to stay away then I think it's time they're forced to stay away.

neris

3 saturdays ago driving in through dollymount and coast guard and gardai blocking the wooden bridge. could see an idiot debating with gardai over why they wouldnt let him across the bridge. The bridge that is that was being pounded by waves and a breaking sea and spray. Unfortunatly there are some idiots who really do not understand the power of the sea, wind or tides. The coast guard would probably be in a better position legally to enforce bylaws/laws on idiots putting theirs and rescue services lives at risk and should be given the powers over time now.

HeidiHeidi

Well RTE need to be educated a bit as well - 6.01 news this evening had a report by Damien whatshisname from Wexford perched on a cliff with two eejits claiming it was "great fun altogether" and "sure you had to get out to see it" or some such gob****ery.

While half the country was flattened, and two people were lost on the coastline in the last few days, they actually broadcast this :eek:

miss no stars

I actually get really angry about this. It's so unnecessary. There are times I feel like standing near the start of the east pier hurling abuse and maybe some small rocks at people trying to walk the pier. Short of that I don't know what can actually be done. There's no will in this country to protect emergency services (or even provide them).

Stheno

miss no stars wrote: »

I actually get really angry about this. It's so unnecessary. There are times I feel like standing near the start of the east pier hurling abuse and maybe some small rocks at people trying to walk the pier. Short of that I don't know what can actually be done. There's no will in this country to protect emergency services (or even provide them).

Police having barricades at the entrance? And enforcing "no entry"?

I actually have a healthy fear of bad weather, just recently I spent three weeks in Canada, first thing you did every morning was check the forecast, as it hit minus 45 where I was, and you couldn't go out for more than ten minutes without risking frostbite on exposed skin.

Everyone wore appropriate clothing including balaclavas and nobody seemed to disobey any warnings, literally everyone had a weather app on their phone to check the temperature if they needed to head outside, and they were experiencing freakishly cold weather (I now think the current weather here is quite balmy lol)

My point being that huge efforts went into publicising the weather there but people also actively checked it as they know they live in an area prone to adverse weather

Is it a case here of "shure it can't be that bad, I'll chance it?"

HeidiHeidi

I think it's more a case of we don't have these extremes often enough, and people are geniunely ignorant, rather than wilfully careless (although there are plenty of those as well!)

We're just not set up for extremes of weather, look what happens when a bit of snow falls.

If we were used enough to extreme wind/seas/tides etc then people might learn to behave a bit more responsibly - but now the reaction just seems to be to get completely over-excited and join in a race to see who can get closest/post the most daring video online :mad:

And as for having police manning barriers on piers.... nice idea, but we don't have enough of them to be doing what they're meant to be be doing, never mind the likes of that. They'd be absolutely slated from a height! Anyway, at the times when they'd be needed at the end of the East Pier, they're off pulling people from under trees etc etc etc..... long story short, ain't gonna happen!

Stheno

HeidiHeidi wrote: »

I think it's more a case of we don't have these extremes often enough, and people are geniunely ignorant, rather than wilfully careless (although there are plenty of those as well!)

We're just not set up for extremes of weather, look what happens when a bit of snow falls.

If we were used enough to extreme wind/seas/tides etc then people might learn to behave a bit more responsibly - but now the reaction just seems to be to get completely over-excited and join in a race to see who can get closest/post the most daring video online :mad:

And as for having police manning barriers on piers.... nice idea, but we don't have enough of them to be doing what they're meant to be be doing, never mind the likes of that. They'd be absolutely slated from a height! Anyway, at the times when they'd be needed at the end of the East Pier, they're off pulling people from under trees etc etc etc..... long story short, ain't gonna happen!

I'd agree to be honest, from my recent trip, I rapidly got used to checking the forecast multiple times a day as it could go from -20 to -40+ depending on the windchill, and by god, after getting caught once not dressed for the cold, I quickly learned to wrap up too much than too little

It was just something everyone did to cope with the weather, same with drivers, they would start slowing a couple of hundred metres before a stop sign to accomodate the state of the roads

tricky D

I can see the East Pier from the house. It's unbelievable the number of complete effin morons walking through the topping waves whuich are much more powerful than one might think. The harbour is actually private property and there's other bye-laws like €5000 fine for feeding the seals, so why not block it off and fine people for going beyond barriers. It would a better and more sensible revenue stream than the parking charges they're bringing in soon. The RNLI and Coastguard would be happier too.

Pic from safe distance.

Stheno

tricky D wrote: »

I can see the East Pier from the house. It's unbelievable the number of complete effin morons walking through the topping waves whuich are much more powerful than one might think. The harbour is actually private property and there's other bye-laws like €5000 fine for feeding the seals, so why not block it off and fine people for going beyond barriers. It would a better and more sensible revenue stream than the parking charges they're bringing in soon. The RNLI and Coastguard would be happier too.

Pic from safe distance.

That's unreal, people actually walk the East Pier in that weather!!!!!

Didn't know they were thinking about bringing in parking charges either

Back OT if they can, then the harbour authority should put some sort of offence in place. Seems the most sensible solution

HeidiHeidi

In fairness to the DL Harbour Company (and I'm no fan of theirs, believe me!) I've seen the pier closed off before in bad weather conditions.

Don't know why they haven't done it lately (if they haven't) - at least they have the benefit of the Harbour Police for manpower, which is more than most other locations like Howth and Bulloch Harbour to mention two which were in the headlines recently.

miss no stars

tricky D wrote: »

The harbour is actually private property and there's other bye-laws like €5000 fine for feeding the seals, so why not block it off and fine people for going beyond barriers. It would a better and more sensible revenue stream than the parking charges they're bringing in soon.

See, I don't get why it's not done. Just pass a new bye-law. Ban people from the pier in dangerous conditions. End of.

HeidiHeidi

tricky D wrote: »

I can see the East Pier from the house. It's unbelievable the number of complete effin morons walking through the topping waves whuich are much more powerful than one might think. The harbour is actually private property and there's other bye-laws like €5000 fine for feeding the seals, so why not block it off and fine people for going beyond barriers. It would a better and more sensible revenue stream than the parking charges they're bringing in soon. The RNLI and Coastguard would be happier too.

Pic from safe distance.

"parking charges they're bringing in soon"
Eh?

miss no stars

Stheno wrote: »

That's unreal, people actually walk the East Pier in that weather!!!!!

Didn't know they were thinking about bringing in parking charges either

Back OT if they can, then the harbour authority should put some sort of offence in place. Seems the most sensible solution

Yeah, bloody crazy stuff been going on. All over facebook.

miss no stars

HeidiHeidi wrote: »

"parking charges they're bringing in soon"
Eh?

Yes, seemingly they can't learn from their mistakes (i.e. DL)

HeidiHeidi

miss no stars wrote: »

See, I don't get why it's not done. Just pass a new bye-law. Ban people from the pier in dangerous conditions. End of.

The ICCL would be all over it like a rash.

Infringing my right to go and walk the pier... rabble rabble rabble... whaddya mean it's dangerous, rabble rabble, I'm well able/I'll decide that/mind your own business

:mad:

HeidiHeidi

miss no stars wrote: »

Yes, seemingly they can't learn from their mistakes (i.e. DL)

As far as I know, every square inch of DLHCo land suitable for parking has been subject to (ever increasing) charges for years.

Hence the

miss no stars

Oh, they're bringing them in in Howth. Don't seem to understand that it'll kill the harbour and businesses...

Stheno

HeidiHeidi wrote: »

As far as I know, every square inch of DLHCo land suitable for parking has been subject to (ever increasing) charges for years.

Hence the

Parking in Howth is free pretty much throughout the village at the moment, very very different to DL where you almost have to check where you are as the charges vary

Was a shock to me first time I went out sailing in DL! And adds a fair whack on weekly if you are used to sailing from Howth

HeidiHeidi

Duh - completely crossed wires here!

Thought all those references were to the East Pier in DL! Now that I actually look at the picture properly, I see that it is of course the East Pier in Howth.

Ignore all my posts on this topic, I was raving

As you were.

HeidiHeidi

Stheno wrote: »

Parking in Howth is free pretty much throughout the village at the moment, very very different to DL where you almost have to check where you are as the charges vary

Was a shock to me first time I went out sailing in DL! And adds a fair whack on weekly if you are used to sailing from Howth

Ah you just need to know where to go

(at weekends anyway)

Stheno

HeidiHeidi wrote: »

Ah you just need to know where to go

(at weekends anyway)

At eight am on a Sunday morning, I just want to get parked (I never knew 8am existed on a Sunday until I sailed in DL )

I'm sure I'll figure it out

neris

Parking charges havent been confirmed as defintly going ahead in howth. The local businesses are still kicking up a fuss and think the minister has more pressing matters to deal with at the moment. instead of pay parking they could just fine pedestrians on a sunday for walking without care on the harbour roads

68deville

Should move to Florida,where owning a boat isn't prohibative,owned skiboats
In the past and jet skis,cruisers and was a member of the local boat club for
A gud few years and it opened my eyes to see the comparison between
Boat ownership and general usage is embraced and encouraged.least ya can park it outside your back door!

sawdoubters

how many accidents happen every day,drink driving,speeding, etc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onAnBBJ-V1k

JacquesDeLad

Putting yourself at risk is ok as a personal decision but when you live in a society where people will risk their lives to save yours, then it's a bit selfish to be stupid.

miss no stars

68deville wrote: »

Should move to Florida,where owning a boat isn't prohibative,owned skiboats
In the past and jet skis,cruisers and was a member of the local boat club for
A gud few years and it opened my eyes to see the comparison between
Boat ownership and general usage is embraced and encouraged.least ya can park it outside your back door!

? Are you saying that increased water craft ownership would cut out the muppetry going on?

sawdoubters wrote: »

how many accidents happen every day,drink driving,speeding, etc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onAnBBJ-V1k

Stupid accidents happen, but being near water in conditions like we're talking about (waves overtopping, stormy weather) isn't just a stupid accident, is recklessly dangerous, has been specifically warned against and puts other people directly in danger when they have to rescue you. Spot the difference?

Atlantic Dawn

neris wrote: »

Parking charges havent been confirmed as defintly going ahead in howth. The local businesses are still kicking up a fuss and think the minister has more pressing matters to deal with at the moment. instead of pay parking they could just fine pedestrians on a sunday for walking without care on the harbour roads

With the small matter of local elections in May they won't be introduced until after that, then Howth will die off and its recent revival will be gone.

PhoenixParker

Stheno wrote: »

At eight am on a Sunday morning, I just want to get parked (I never knew 8am existed on a Sunday until I sailed in DL )

I'm sure I'll figure it out

That's actually one of the best times, it's free all along the Dart line (the side away from the sea) and at 8am there are usually a few spaces.

A lot of the harbour is now E4 for an all day parking ticket, which in fairness isn't too bad.

Then there's the secret free car park.

alexlyons

HeidiHeidi wrote: »

In fairness to the DL Harbour Company (and I'm no fan of theirs, believe me!) I've seen the pier closed off before in bad weather conditions.

Don't know why they haven't done it lately (if they haven't) - at least they have the benefit of the Harbour Police for manpower, which is more than most other locations like Howth and Bulloch Harbour to mention two which were in the headlines recently.

DL east pier was closed in early January for a number of hours over high tide for the very bad weather...

See here

Slaacer

parking charge is an easy source of income for them as people come there and have to park - off course this is an additional pain and cost for us coming sailing at the club. I remember one year I entered a race in DL in fireball, I was told I could bring the boat in their yard but park the car outside cos this was a carpark for members only - no where to park the car for free - ticket parking everywhere so I asked if they were going to stop the racing when my parking time runs out ? they looked at me as if I had 2 heads ! I told them I was serious cos I can only park for 3 hours then I'd have to feed the meter again !!!

To cut a long story short by the time I had this parking issue sorted my crew had time to rig up the boat and get changed !!! they eventually gave me a member sticker where I had to pay for 3 hrs to stay for the day. I never went sailing in the southside again in dinghies cos it was a nightmare.

Hope they're not gonna make the same mistake in Howth - still though not happy to pay for parking to go sailing :-(
However they should close off access to the pier during storms and fine people for their stupidity if they still go on the pier for endangering their life and those of volunteer rescues.

alexlyons

Slaacer wrote: »

parking charge is an easy source of income for them as people come there and have to park - off course this is an additional pain and cost for us coming sailing at the club. I remember one year I entered a race in DL in fireball, I was told I could bring the boat in their yard but park the car outside cos this was a carpark for members only - no where to park the car for free - ticket parking everywhere so I asked if they were going to stop the racing when my parking time runs out ? they looked at me as if I had 2 heads ! I told them I was serious cos I can only park for 3 hours then I'd have to feed the meter again !!!

To cut a long story short by the time I had this parking issue sorted my crew had time to rig up the boat and get changed !!! they eventually gave me a member sticker where I had to pay for 3 hrs to stay for the day. I never went sailing in the southside again in dinghies cos it was a nightmare.

Hope they're not gonna make the same mistake in Howth - still though not happy to pay for parking to go sailing :-(
However they should close off access to the pier during storms and fine people for their stupidity if they still go on the pier for endangering their life and those of volunteer rescues.

The only club with dedicated member parking is the royal Irish, so I assume you were there.
There is no where in the harbour that has a restriction on the amount of time you can pay and display for, so you could have paid for the entire event before you went on the water. It even lets you pay for the following day.
This has been the case as long as I can remember and I've been in the harbour 13 years....

The only non harbour parking is behind the west pier and that has a day rate also.

Stheno

They've changed the system in DL all day parking near the marina varies from €4 to €8 at the weekends now

alexlyons

Stheno wrote: »

They've changed the system in DL all day parking near the marina varies from €4 to €8 at the weekends now

They have. Primarily to compete with the likes of the council area behind the west pier which is €3.10 for the day and has been for quite some time.
Reasonably safe for occasional parking, but not ideal for consistent daily parking that can be easily watched be the "locals".

The big issue at the minute in the harbour in relation to parking is the minimum spend of €2. Absolute pain.
They've brought in paying by text etc in the harbour now as well.

Sh1tbag OToole

Let people go and get themselves killed if they want.

I cant get over the moral outrage and the extent to which people are willing to give up their own freedom and money to the authorities just because of a small few muppets

alexlyons

Sh1tbag OToole wrote: »

Let people go and get themselves killed if they want

You try telling the families/friends/relatives. Or being them.

Sh1tbag OToole

alexlyons wrote: »

You try telling the families/friends/relatives. Or being them.

Maybe the family and friends should be telling them to stay inside. Whats next? Fines for walking near the top of a mountain with a golf club during a lightning storm?

alexlyons

Sh1tbag OToole wrote: »

Maybe the family and friends should be telling them to stay inside. Whats next? Fines for walking near the top of a mountain with a golf club during a lightning storm?

Maybe they should, but that's not always the case. I'm sure for every person making a stupid decision, there are 10 more still inside who were advised not to go out.
You'd also be surprised at the amount of people who don't realise they're making a stupid decision until it's to late.
Your example is quite an obvious thing not to do, where as generally these situations are a bit more ambiguous.

fergal.b

Here is a nice link you can go through with the kids to help them understand the dangers around water with the help of Dopper Dolphin http://www.aquaattack.ie

miss no stars

Sh1tbag OToole wrote: »

Maybe the family and friends should be telling them to stay inside. Whats next? Fines for walking near the top of a mountain with a golf club during a lightning storm?

The part you're missing is where other people have to put themselves at risk to help people who ignored the risk and got themselves all fecked up. It's the sheer numbers who are doing it. Go look at the pictures of the adult with 2 small kids on the pier in Dalkey and tell me you think it was right that in those conditions, with those small children, nobody could penalize him for putting their lives at risk. Deliberately putting children's lives at risk is neglect at best. The trouble is, people don't seem to understand the power and danger of the sea. There's genuine ignorance. Hence, it would be appropriate to just close the piers. It's dangerous, if anything happens you can die and someone WILL come and try to rescue you, hence putting themselves at risk. Kids can be put in life threatening situations by their parents who know no better and they've no way of objecting or removing themselves from the situation. Nobody, and I stress nobody, from the general public has ANY cause to be on piers and exposed locations in conditions like the storms at the start of the year. No cause whatsoever. So just close them.