Marco Pantani (RIP) - 10th anniversary on Friday

letape

RobFowl wrote: »

Was responding directly to shutup hence the ones quoted.
Fignon didn't admit doping in those tours fwiw and Roche denies it vociferously and it was time expired when it got to court so was thrown out.

I wasn't so much directing that at you but more generally!

The one common thread is that nobody ever admits to doping in the years that they won , although in fairness Fignon (RIP) didn't need to admit anything.

12 sprocket

RobFowl wrote: »

There is scepticism from many posters here and indeed many journalists and teams about performances in all 3 GT's in 2013.

The aggression re the 96.98-2005 tours comes largely from the fact that htey were won by proven or admitted dopers who would almost certainly not have won without using.

In all walks of life and all professions there are saints and sinners of varying degrees and thats not going to change. Thats the human condition and anyone who thinks otherwise is naive or a sceptic..
What matters is the culture as to how people behave. The culture has been improved in cycling through less tolerance for doping , loss of sponsors and earnings, longer bans, and in general teams lose more now if a rider is caught doping.
So will ye ever just enjoy the cycling for what it is support the anti doping rules and when dopers are caught ban them for a long time... also respect all the other things involved in competitive cycling for these top ride rs... dedication discipline determination sacrificing social life, training suffering and having very unique characters with huge drive.
Pantanis life is a tragedy for him, people who loved him and the sport...
If you want to see what i mean by character look up pantanis collission with a jeep the injuries he suffered and how he ovrrcame them to get back to the top of the sport

happytramp

letape wrote: »

I wasn't so much directing that at you but more generally!

The one common thread is that nobody ever admits to doping in the years that they won

I know, but I can't help but take some solace from the fact that it's unlikely that EPO was around the cycling community in 1987.

laraghrider

happytramp wrote: »

I know, but I can't help but take some solace from the fact that it's unlikely that EPO was around the cycling community in 1987.

It's wasn't in the form that we know today but it's worth remembering EPO is not the first PED. doping didn't begin with the EPO era. There were other drugs and methods prior to the 90's that are well documented. EPO brought with it an entirely new level of performance and pushing the boundaries of human capabilities. It also killed rider progression and training methodologies however.

Slo_Rida

laraghrider wrote: »

It also killed rider progression and training methodologies however.

It also killed riders!!

laraghrider

Slo_Rida wrote: »

It also killed riders!!

Yes absolutely it did, as well as blood doping.

NeedMoreGears

For some reason this thread has highlighted for me (maybe I'm not just slow on the bike) what an unmitigated £$%^ up doping has been for cycling.

It's really insidious in that it can convince you that it's "not all that simple"

So we get the whole "cheat or be cheated" leading to "everybody is at it" and therefore cheating is not really cheating (a bit like a pull on a jersey in football that isn't blown by the ref)

Plus a touch of flawed character mitigates cheating (Pantani - tortured genius etc) except when it doesn't (Lance - total $£%£%)

But...

Cheating destroys memories of past glories and cast doubts on today's

It tarnishes those who don't cheat because of "they were all at it"

It robs those who are playing straight of their chance

A good race is a good race. The absolute time up Mount ventoux or whatever doesn't matter, it's the competition vs. the other riders.

People die and not just famous people

So I get to the point of

(i) Onerous, frequent and technically advanced testing ; if someone doesn't like it, they can £$^% off.

(ii) Life ban and heavy fines for test failure. End of

(iii) Heavy fines for teams if one of thier riders is found doping (as a minimum)

Hopefully something like the above would both remove the temptation to cheat and convince otherwise honest riders that they do not have to cheat in order to stay even. (yeah i know the end of that sentence is a bit of a contradiction but I trust you get my drift)

Ok - feel better now. Sorry for the rant.

Inquitus

In the grand scheme of cheating, Lemond's illegal TT bike is probably the worst non doping case.

el tel

Pantani had human failings whereas Armstrong was just a twat.

Pantani was a tourtured victim of his own mind. Armstrong was fully in control and made victims out of others.

It's a shame he's dead, I'd love to have heard his story in his own words.

letape

Inquitus wrote: »

In the grand scheme of cheating, Lemond's illegal TT bike is probably the worst non doping case.

I am still glad he beat Fignon to win the 89 Tour - more deserving and credible!

furiousox

Armstrong on Pantani

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/armstrong-if-i-was-the-carpenter-pantani-was-the-artist

2 Wheels Good

Inquitus wrote: »

In the grand scheme of cheating, Lemond's illegal TT bike is probably the worst non doping case.

(Slightly off topic) What was illegal about it? He just used the tools available at the time. Fignon could have done the same but didn't even wear a helmet the same day.

letape

furiousox wrote: »

Armstrong on Pantani

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/armstrong-if-i-was-the-carpenter-pantani-was-the-artist

That's an interesting article to read. I can definitely see another book coming from LA.

happytramp

2 Wheels Good wrote: »

(Slightly off topic) What was illegal about it? He just used the tools available at the time. Fignon could have done the same but didn't even wear a helmet the same day.

It was very illegal. Fignon had been refused to allowed race with a similar set up earlier in the season. Following the rules as they were written at the time Lemond should not been allowed on the road that day. I can't remember the specifics but I believe it was to do with the amount of contact points between the rider and the bike.

furiousox

TheBlaaMan

A good day for Marco pictures............



As a young fella....




Posed - doesn't really look 'at home', does he?




That's more like it.

Daroxtar

This is the one that sticks most in my memory, the most unbelievable recovery and attack I can remember watching and 2 days later it all came apart.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-J2bIsPDH8

So bittersweet, but at the time it was just incredible to watch. Such a shame. RIP Marco

letape

^^^^ I like the way he didn't stop or slow at all at the line, he certainly didn't take any prisoners.

ThisRegard

Google now has been recommending many news articles about the man this week, this short one is decent.

It does, though, remain something of a mystery as to exactly why the diminutive Italian remains such a celebrated figure when you consider the facts which have emerged in the past decade. Perhaps it was his premature death, just like a rock star, which has added to the nostalgia.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/opinion/it-is-10-years-since-pantani-beloved-by-millions-was-found-dead-alone-in-a-hotel.23428752

Harrybelafonte

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfN3uxk-vRs

Slo_Rida

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfN3uxk-vRs

Anyone got the dvd?

furiousox

Dvd will be released on May 12th according to Amazon.

LCD

Matt Rendell on Off the Ball speaking about Pantani

http://www.newstalk.ie/player/podcasts/Off_The_Ball/Off_The_Ball_Highlights/45807/0/matt_rendell_on_marco_pantani

letape

Another 5 years have passed; 15 years now since the death of Marco and there are more allegations and conjecture about how he died.

I’ll always remember him out of the saddle, hands on the drops, churning a huge gear leaving everyone in his wake going uphill :-)


http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/pantanis-mother-makes-another-plea-for-police-to-reopen-investigation-into-his-death/

Miklos

His mother should focus on reminding people of what he did on the bike, how he made them feel, what he meant to them rather than his tragic end.

Obviously he was a hugely flawed character but he was very much of his time and there’s still a lot of love for him out there.

RobFowl

Miklos wrote: »

His mother should focus on reminding people of what he did on the bike, how he made them feel, what he meant to them rather than his tragic end.

Obviously he was a hugely flawed character but he was very much of his time and there’s still a lot of love for him out there.

His mother lost her beloved son.
She can react how she want and needs to ....

terrydel

letape wrote: »

I think there is a lot more to remember about a person, than whether they cheated / took drugs or not!

Certainly for me who grew up watching him race, there is a lot more to his memory than this.

But the fact he cheated makes a lot of it a fraud.

terrydel

nerraw1111 wrote: »

We all understand and know exactly what we're watching. There's no doubt. Those amazing breaks? Doping. Those heroic uphill attacks? Doping.

I cheered him like everyone else, loved his style. But I don't understand how anyone can say he was a good cyclist before he doped or claim that we don't know what we were watching when he stood on his pedals and cycled into the distance. Or it was a different era. It was arguably the dirtiest era in cycling. Almost destroyed the tour. That's Pantani.

There are those who still celebrate him, statues on the mountains etc, presumably on the basis that everyone else was doping and of those, he was fearless and exciting, willing to blow up rather than sit on the wheel. I can understand that to a degree.

Cycling fans get the sport they deserve.

I hadn't watched or followed cycling since I was a kid and roach and kelly were winning tours. I was 18 the year the tour came to Dublin so I was aware of the hype and followed it every day, I was ignorant of any doping at the time and then you had the festina affair and what followed but to this day seeing Pantani ride that tour is my fondest memory of pro cycling even knowing what I know now.

I got my first road bike off the back of seeing that race... well took my dads pugeot that was in the shed down for a service and started cycling for fun as opposed to A to B

I've a bigger issue in the modern era with guys being caught an allowed serve bans and come back to the sport or any sport to be honest.

It's very easy to look back and call them the devil but in those days I think so dirty was the sport that many guys (not saying Pantani was or wasn't) were victims of the culture at the time to an extent.

No one deserved the end Pantani had but I do feel uneasy about how he is still regarded despite what I said earlier.

letape

20 years gone. RIP Marco.