Is your SFP under €400 h/a ?

red bull

Dairy farmers were eligible to apply for REPs from the begining

rancher

red bull wrote: »

Dairy farmers were eligible to apply for REPs from the begining

The rules were changed at the end that left it easier to comply, a friend went in and he supplying 100,000 gals milk at the time. He never could comply before . Got his last cheque lately.....nice on top of the present milk price

paddysdream

Having read through this thread ,have a few questions.

What is O Cuiv trying to achieve?The new SFP regime is done dusted and delivered,set in stone etc etc.The budget,Ireland's options,etc are decided and there is no going back.Is he telling people that if he gets in power after 2016 that he is gonna change pillar 1?Not a chance methinks

As regards the IFA "levy";have never paid it and the first thing I do when dealing with a factory/mart for the first time is to emphasise that it is not to be stopped from my cheque.Once or twice it was stopped "by mistake" but refunded when I kicked up a fuss about it.So whats the non political point of getting people to sign letters etc etc?Just tell the mart/factory to stop the levy.Its voluntary .

Suppose the sneaky thing about it is that it is stopped as a matter of course unless you request it not to be and that on some dockets marts do not make it clear what its for eg "european levy" etc instead of IFA levy.
Have no problem with factories and marts collecting this for IFA or people paying it if they want.

The "less than 400 " bit.Well that includes the vast majority of Irish farmers(hold my hand up and say mine is a bit north of that).Most large tillage farmers would be on less than this per hectare.Think area aid was about 145 per acre or 358 per hectare.Add in lower set aside entitlements and average would come down.Why doesn't he hold a few meetings in south Kildare ,Wexford,Carlow ,Laois etc?

Very few people are in excess of 150k(4 I think last year ) and there weren't that many over 100k.Smells like begrudgery.Guys on 300 per hectare are well in excess of the average .Contrary to popular belief,very few are on very high per hectare entitlements and many of those have small hectares ie total payment ain't that large.Average total is about 10.5k or so.

To me the big winners (not many I admit)are those,mostly west of the Shannon,who have lots of hectares (on a map anyways) and low entitlements.

To me it always comes back to the basic question;What is Area Aid,SFP,Pillar 1 etc, for?. Support to those producing food at near to or below cost or a social engineering scheme to sustain rural areas?

Extreme example I know but?
90 hectares of my land(not bragging);1100 lowland ewes or 180-200 dairy cows or 900 ton winter wheat or ?suckler cows finishing progeny.

90 hectares west Cork,Leitrim,Cavan(just an example ,don't take it personally!) ? ewes ,cows etc?

If you believe its option1(support to producers) then its one way and if you believe its option 2(social support) its another.

Know what I think and believe Pillar 2 is the one for social support,increased targeting to ANCs etc.

Said a long time ago on here that those of us who are living from and depend on farming are very protective of our supports and ,as they make up the vast proportion of our income many years,will fight to keep as much as we can.


How is it that its those who are gaining from the reform are the ones always complaining about it?

Conmaicne Mara

paddysdream wrote: »

Having read through this thread ,have a few questions.

What is O Cuiv trying to achieve?The new SFP regime is done dusted and delivered,set in stone etc etc.The budget,Ireland's options,etc are decided and there is no going back.Is he telling people that if he gets in power after 2016 that he is gonna change pillar 1?Not a chance methinks

As regards the IFA "levy";have never paid it and the first thing I do when dealing with a factory/mart for the first time is to emphasise that it is not to be stopped from my cheque.Once or twice it was stopped "by mistake" but refunded when I kicked up a fuss about it.So whats the non political point of getting people to sign letters etc etc?Just tell the mart/factory to stop the levy.Its voluntary .

Suppose the sneaky thing about it is that it is stopped as a matter of course unless you request it not to be and that on some dockets marts do not make it clear what its for eg "european levy" etc instead of IFA levy.
Have no problem with factories and marts collecting this for IFA or people paying it if they want.

The "less than 400 " bit.Well that includes the vast majority of Irish farmers(hold my hand up and say mine is a bit north of that).Most large tillage farmers would be on less than this per hectare.Think area aid was about 145 per acre or 358 per hectare.Add in lower set aside entitlements and average would come down.Why doesn't he hold a few meetings in south Kildare ,Wexford,Carlow ,Laois etc?

Very few people are in excess of 150k(4 I think last year ) and there weren't that many over 100k.Smells like begrudgery.Guys on 300 per hectare are well in excess of the average .Contrary to popular belief,very few are on very high per hectare entitlements and many of those have small hectares ie total payment ain't that large.Average total is about 10.5k or so.

To me the big winners (not many I admit)are those,mostly west of the Shannon,who have lots of hectares (on a map anyways) and low entitlements.

To me it always comes back to the basic question;What is Area Aid,SFP,Pillar 1 etc, for?. Support to those producing food at near to or below cost or a social engineering scheme to sustain rural areas?

Extreme example I know but?
90 hectares of my land(not bragging);1100 lowland ewes or 180-200 dairy cows or 900 ton winter wheat or ?suckler cows finishing progeny.

90 hectares west Cork,Leitrim,Cavan(just an example ,don't take it personally!) ? ewes ,cows etc?

If you believe its option1(support to producers) then its one way and if you believe its option 2(social support) its another.

Know what I think and believe Pillar 2 is the one for social support,increased targeting to ANCs etc.

Said a long time ago on here that those of us who are living from and depend on farming are very protective of our supports and ,as they make up the vast proportion of our income many years,will fight to keep as much as we can.


How is it that its those who are gaining from the reform are the ones always complaining about it?

Not a bit in the world stopping you putting those questions to him.

paddysdream

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

Not a bit in the world stopping you putting those questions to him.

Wouldn't bother really as my opinion of him ain't that good right now and can't see how it might improve!

To be honest believe he is a populist who jumps on every bandwagon after it has left the station ie when he can talk and propose ideas but never has to deliver or make decisions.

If there was (a) any chance of the new CAP being altered or (b) O Cuiv being in an agricultural ministry this side of never then I might go to a meeting of his.

All this from a house where FF have got 95% plus of all votes cast since they were formed in the 30s.

Conmaicne Mara

paddysdream wrote: »

Wouldn't bother really

There you go then. This thread was created to let people know the meetings were taking place.

paddysdream

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

There you go then. This thread was created to let people know the meetings were taking place.

Ok then if he holds one within 100 miles of me then I might!.

Can I be so bold as to ask what the main points of his idea is ie how does he propose to level out the job,make life fairer,etc etc.Not being smart but dont really want to wade through a policy document tonight.
Just the main bullet points please as I know that when you hear it explained at a meeting it makes much more sense than just reading through page after page.

Conmaicne Mara

paddysdream wrote: »

Ok then if he holds one within 100 miles of me then I might!.

Can I be so bold as to ask what the main points of his idea is ie how does he propose to level out the job,make life fairer,etc etc.Not being smart but dont really want to wade through a policy document tonight.
Just the main bullet points please as I know that when you hear it explained at a meeting it makes much more sense than just reading through page after page.

The policy document is on FF's main page. That is the basis for his talk, but in truth like you said it's explained better in person. It doesn't take long to read online in fairness.

But I suppose he has a per hectare cap of €400 by 2019, and for lower entitlement farmers to come up to €193 I believe. He's taking money out of Pillar 2 to help fund this, but also committing to proper 50:50 co-funding.

There was I believe some mention given to high SFP but low hectare farms.

He goes into detail about the disproportionate reward to production for the very high SFP recipients, compared to low SFP recipients and their production.

The idea is for the absolute highest earners to start dropping first, year by year, so you could say the middle of the road SFP recipients would get to keep that level of SFP for longer than under Coveneys proposals.

It's not my idea, that's why I say go to the meetings and ask questions, I can't explain it as well.

As for the 100 miles, when I attend an IFA county executive meeting I've to make a 140 mile round trip!

He does also mention fair price for produce and referenced the bull beef protest. That would be of benefit to larger producers if it were to come to pass.

What part of the country are you in by the way?

rancher

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

Not a bit in the world stopping you putting those questions to him.

There's an interesting one for you Con and I'm sure you'll agree. How much money do you think IFAs lobbying has put in Paddysdreams pocket. he says his SFP is a bit north of 400 so we'll say 600 and if Ciolos got his way it'd be 250 this year so he'd be down 350/ha, I doubt he's a member, but we'll say he has the average members acreage 40ha, he's gained €14000 or if you like the levy off 10000 cattle
Also its not the IFA levy, its divided between ICMSA IFA and macra.
Any way just a bit of fun, really hooked on this now, I'll never get time to lamb the ewes this year. Other years I use to say that I might have an ''IFA lamb'' or maybe even an ''IFA ewe'' but this year its likely to be a'' boards lamb'' iykwim.

Conmaicne Mara

rancher wrote: »

There's an interesting one for you Con and I'm sure you'll agree. How much money do you think IFAs lobbying has put in Paddysdreams pocket. he says its a bit north of 400 so we'll say 600 and if Ciolos got his way it'd be 250 this year so he'd be down 350/ha, I doubt he's a member, but we'll say he has the average members acreage 40ha, he's gained €14000 or if you like the levy off 10000 cattle
Also its not the IFA levy, its divided between ICMSA IFA and macra.
Any way just a bit of fun, really hooked on this now, I'll never get time to lamb the ewes this year. Other years I use to say that I might have an ''IFA lamb'' or maybe even an ''IFA ewe'' but this year its likely to be a'' boards lamb'' iykwim.

Something I've never hid from anyone, here or face to face regardless of who they are is that I believe in the family farm, keeping farmers in rural communities through out the country.

The SFP system is an unfair system. In the CAP policy document SFP payments were compared to LU/HA based payments. I'll take one example from that document:

A farmer in receipt of €150-200 SFP would receive €214 based on his LU/HA production. Where as a farmer getting €1000+ H/A SFP would get €416 based on his LU/HA production.

Now Dev Óg said he got his figures from the Department of Agriculture, don't question me on them, they're not my figures, question him. But that example shows how unequal and unfair the SFP system is.

The SFP payments are somewhat accurate (not very) up to €400 HA. When you go above €400 HA in that document the SFP payment versus LU/HA production payment gap expands rapidly.

Now IFA, I don't believe I said they were useless. I wouldn't criticise most of the IFA people I know. BUT as an organisation led by the leadership - at least until the recent changing of the guard as Downey hasn't been there long enough yet - it has become a vehicle used by high SFP earning farmers, and not an organisation working for the majority of it's members.

rancher

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

Something I've never hid from anyone, here or face to face regardless of who they are is that I believe in the family farm, keeping farmers in rural communities through out the country.

The SFP system is an unfair system. In the CAP policy document SFP payments were compared to LU/HA based payments. I'll take one example from that document:

A farmer in receipt of €150-200 SFP would receive €214 based on his LU/HA production. Where as a farmer getting €1000+ H/A SFP would get €416 based on his LU/HA production.

Now Dev Óg said he got his figures from the Department of Agriculture, don't question me on them, they're not my figures, question him. But that example shows how unequal and unfair the SFP system is.

The SFP payments are somewhat accurate (not very) up to €400 HA. When you go above €400 HA in that document the SFP payment versus LU/HA production payment gap expands rapidly.

Now IFA, I don't believe I said they were useless. I wouldn't criticise most of the IFA people I know. BUT as an organisation led by the leadership - at least until the recent changing of the guard as Downey hasn't been there long enough yet - it has become a vehicle used by high SFP earning farmers, and not an organisation working for the majority of it's members.

Sorry... my post was only a bit of crack, think you and I have it all dicussed, I wish you the best of luck with this, I'm coming near retirement ...doesn't matter what way it goes...contributory pension in 5 yrs.
I was just saying after all the work we put in that paddysdream is still stopping the levy although he's avoided a 250/ha cut in his SFP.......there's no accounting for folks, is there

Conmaicne Mara

rancher wrote: »

Sorry... my post was only a bit of crack, think you and I have it all dicussed, I wish you the best of luck with this, I'm coming near retirement ...doesn't matter what way it goes...contributory pension in 5 yrs.
I was just saying after all the work we put in that paddysdream is still stopping the levy although he's avoided a 250/ha cut in his SFP.......there's no accounting for folks, is there

Don't worry about it, I don't Freedominacup and myself spent most of the last year tearing shreds out of one another and we're still able to have a civil discussion Everyone has their opinion and it'd be a boring world if we all agreed on everything.

It's the system I have issue with, I've no doubt if I had a high SFP I'd be doing my level best to keep it high too.

Most places I've been to, whether it's the ploughing, or a farm walk, or a mart, or a show. When you take the paperwork and politics out of it farmers do have great craic together.

paddysdream

rancher wrote: »

Sorry... my post was only a bit of crack, think you and I have it all dicussed, I wish you the best of luck with this, I'm coming near retirement ...doesn't matter what way it goes...contributory pension in 5 yrs.
I was just saying after all the work we put in that paddysdream is still stopping the levy although he's avoided a 250/ha cut in his SFP.......there's no accounting for folks, is there

Don't think the IFA is the only show in town!

ps My subs were(are) more dependent on the work I put in rather than some suit from Bluebell .No offence intended.
Going for a pint .Will return to this after pint and quick look at ewes tonight!!

hurling_lad

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

Not a bit in the world stopping you putting those questions to him.

Not a bit stopping you from addressing the points in the post either.

Conmaicne Mara

hurling_lad wrote: »

Not a bit stopping you from addressing the points in the post either.

There sure is, it's not my proposal, it's FF/O'Cuiv's proposal. I don't speak for them, I just happen to think they have an idea farmers on and under €400 HA should hear and like I have said many times on this thread make up their own minds about.

Though it does seem to have caused a bit of a stir from one side of the house on here

rancher

paddysdream wrote: »

Don't think the IFA is the only show in town!

ps My subs were(are) more dependent on the work I put in rather than some suit from Bluebell .No offence intended.
Going for a pint .Will return to this after pint and quick look at ewes tonight!!

Well there's no one else getting the blame/credit as far as I can see

hurling_lad

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

There sure is, it's not my proposal, it's FF/O'Cuiv's proposal. I don't speak for them, I just happen to think they have an idea farmers on and under €400 HA should hear and like I have said many times on this thread make up their own minds about.

Though it does seem to have caused a bit of a stir from one side of the house on here

The side of the house that attaches zero credibility to anything that Fianna Fáil has to say?

Conmaicne Mara

hurling_lad wrote: »

The side of the house that attaches zero credibility to anything that Fianna Fáil has to say?

The side of the house that feels most threatened by a fair CAP deal.

Conmaicne Mara

Least people think I am advocating that they support or vote for Fianna Fail, I am not. They can and will do whatever they want on that score.

I am saying they should go to a meeting, hear the idea, and decide for themselves whether the idea has merit for them, and whether they think the idea is worth supporting.

paddysdream

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

Least people think I am advocating that they support or vote for Fianna Fail, I am not. They can and will do whatever they want on that score.

I am saying they should go to a meeting, hear the idea, and decide for themselves whether the idea has merit for them, and whether they think the idea is worth supporting.

Whats the idea?

paddysdream

rancher wrote: »

Well there's no one else getting the blame/credit as far as I can see

The IFA are only one of many lobby groups .Think (due in most part to their house organ the farmers journal)they get a disproportinate amount of credit/blame for all things affecting farming.

Asked a question in another thread re. who proposed many of the things Coveney finally decided on(most of them stated policy). Even offered a prize.And still no answers.!!

If I was to depend on IFA or other lobby groups then think I would go hungry more days than not.

paddysdream

All this talk of transferring money from pillar 1 to pillar 2 is just that;talk.

Can't and won't happen.Think Ireland has very little leeway,now or in the future,to transfer money between pillars.

People seem to be still missing the point, 400 per entitlement is way over the average;90 hectares (nothing personal!) is way over the national average holding of 35 or so hectares.

Like I said anyone on 10k or so farming about 35 hectares is average. Anything above this,either in land or money,is a "fat cat"

Young Dev is just pushing an open door in tapping into discontent with the general way farming is going.His populist solutions are not going to work ,either on paper or in the real world.
Just a general pandering to the "whinging farmer"stereotype i'm afraid.

Its just the general conspiracy theory of "Coveney is looking after the big boys" "IFA lads have their own and their friends money sorted""Its who you know ,not what you know""fill in the blanks yourself" bull**** that really pi**es me off.

Asked on a similar thread about a year ago what solutions people proposed to sort out all the percieved unfairness and it went very silent.

Know most people on here are from DA areas farming sucklers etc(thats the impression I get anyways) so lets take the view from the sunny(well not tonight ok)south east.
General feeling around here is that we are being cut to prop up those in the west farming big acres of sh*te land which wouldn't support snipes in a dry June.
Unfair I know but thats what the perception is and sh*te like O Cuiv is spouting will only cement that impression.

Thank you and goodnight.Its been a pleasure .When I come back to this tomorrow evening expect to see lots of realistic proposals(bit late now as deal is done and dusted but all debate helps to broaden the mind) and prob. lots of abuse.

Ps my entitlements are close to what rancher said on a decent amount of hectares(no stacking or leasing involved).Built up from early 90s with 800 plus ewes at home and on conacre plus 80 to 100 cattle per year with a bit of tillage.Lots of muck and sh*t(all lambed out with cattle wintered outside with only sucks in the shed.Wouldn't get away with it nowadays!Never had a bit of concrete(yard or shed )until last year.Too busy trying to live to invest all my free EU money in the farm.

Conmaicne Mara

paddysdream wrote: »

Whats the idea?

A fair CAP Deal

rancher

paddysdream wrote: »

The IFA are only one of many lobby groups .Think (due in most part to their house organ the farmers journal)they get a disproportinate amount of credit/blame for all things affecting farming.

Asked a question in another thread re. who proposed many of the things Coveney finally decided on(most of them stated policy). Even offered a prize.And still no answers.!!

If I was to depend on IFA or other lobby groups then think I would go hungry more days than not.

Nothing special there, we would have proposed most of the things, the three main farming organisations would have basically the same policy. IFA would always be putting in submission and in discussion with the dept.
Like you I would have worked hard through the nineties and if you had good land and took advantage of all the schemes , it was possible to be up around 5-600/ha without having inside information and without dealing in clean eared cattle. I saw lots of land around here that didn't draw maximum payments and could have. If it did we might have been working from a budget of €2bn instead of €1.2bn.

rancher

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

Don't worry about it, I don't Freedominacup and myself spent most of the last year tearing shreds out of one another and we're still able to have a civil discussion Everyone has their opinion and it'd be a boring world if we all agreed on everything.

It's the system I have issue with, I've no doubt if I had a high SFP I'd be doing my level best to keep it high too.

Most places I've been to, whether it's the ploughing, or a farm walk, or a mart, or a show. When you take the paperwork and politics out of it farmers do have great craic together.

One thing we'll agree on

coolshannagh28

rancher wrote: »

Like you I would have worked hard through the nineties and if you had good land and took advantage of all the schemes , it was possible to be up around 5-600/ha without having inside information and without dealing in clean eared cattle. I saw lots of land around here that didn't draw maximum payments and could have. If it did we might have been working from a budget of €2bn instead of €1.2bn.

You have summed up the problem with the present scheme it is a pension plan for lads that worked hard 15 years ago and takes no account of recent or current production

rancher

coolshannagh28 wrote: »

You have summed up the problem with the present scheme it is a pension plan for lads that worked hard 15 years ago and takes no account of recent or current production

I wonder what percentage of lads are not around the same stocking rate as the ref years, I'm at 2lu/ha....why should I be cut 30%

coolshannagh28

rancher wrote: »

I wonder what percentage of lads are not around the same stocking rate as the ref years, I'm at 2lu/ha....why should I be cut 30%

Going by the generous shared information you have provided on this and other threads there would be no argument in your case but there are a lot of armchair farmers out there and correspondingly a lot of new entrants who have gotten a poor deal.

paddysdream

coolshannagh28 wrote: »

You have summed up the problem with the present scheme it is a pension plan for lads that worked hard 15 years ago and takes no account of recent or current production

we are always being told that a good pension scheme is essential and not to rely on the state in old age so maybe it was just foresight!

paddysdream

coolshannagh28 wrote: »

Going by the generous shared information you have provided on this and other threads there would be no argument in your case but there are a lot of armchair farmers out there and correspondingly a lot of new entrants who have gotten a poor deal.

Ah one of my old favourite's ,the "armchair farmer"

New entrants who lost out are those who started after the end of the installation aid and before the national reserve.A few (know 1) and not a nice place to be, but in the big scheme of things,they are few and far between.

There are very few big looser's or winners under this reform,the vast majority will move up or down very little.
Big winners are those like the poster on here who go from 1800 to 14400 by 2019(and assume a few will win much bigger) whilst big looser's will be those(very few again)with 1k plus entitlements on less than 10 hectares or those ,who through no fault of their own(ill health,bereavment etc),had all land and entitlements leased out in the last few years.

Hard cases make bad law and with a new national reserve plus young farmer scheme,most(but not all) will have some hope of improvement.