Child welfare groups want slapping outlawed

darkpagandeath

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/child-welfare-groups-want-slapping-outlawed-258025.html

I'm confused in what they want exactly. On the one hand their saying slapping is bad and on the other they say 3 out of 5 parents don't do it or appose slapping .. The usual loaded language article about slapping yet slapping is replaced with Hitting the child in most cases. As far as I know beating your child would get you into serious trouble.

It says corporal punishment is Illegal and uses that as a reason for banning slapping ? It also says best practice Like parents are running a company. Why do they need a law for this it's not even Illegal in the EU and they don't slap much, corporal punishment is Illegal in some EU states. Pardon the pun but it seems like they want another Stick to beat parents with.

Lets try to keep the debate away from pros/cons of the slapping and more on the actual need for legislation or their reasoning.

wendell borton

They need a paddling.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paddle_(spanking)

strobe

I'm confused as to your confusion... You seem to think the fact that 3 out of five people don't do something or disaprove of something that means legislation isn't necessary? If 40% of the country murdered or raped or drove drunk or vandalised or approved of it would it confuse you when people called for those things to be legislated against?

darkpagandeath

strobe wrote: »

I'm confused as to your confusion... You seem to think the fact that 2 thirds of don't do something means legislation isn't necessary? If 33% ofthe country murdered or raped or drove drunk or vandalised would it confuse you when people called for those things to be legislated against?

because that's the same .... 33% of people have a problem with drink lets ban that then ...

wendell borton

strobe wrote: »

I'm confused as to your confusion... You seem to think the fact that 2 thirds of don't do something means legislation isn't necessary? If 33% ofthe country murdered or raped or drove drunk or vandalised would it confuse you when people called for those things to be legislated against?

Majority rules, thats democracy.

Czarcasm

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Lets try to keep the debate away from pros/cons of the slapping and more on the actual need for legislation or their reasoning.

Sounds reasonable...

strobe wrote: »

If 40% of the country murdered or raped or drove drunk or vandalised or approved of it would it confuse you when people called for those things to be legislated against?

Escalated quickly!

GarIT

Even if one child is being slapped we need legislation to protect it. With some people if I said I hit my dog they'd be outraged but my child they wouldn't care. Some people claim it is a right as a parent to assault their child.

strobe

darkpagandeath wrote: »

because that's the same .... 33% of people have a problem with drink lets ban that then ...

Oh Jesus h Christ... Its too early in the morning to walk you through why that statement bears no relationship to what you discuss in the OP you wrote and my reply to it ... Maybe I'll drop back after work... In the meantime reread the article you linked to and your own OP and have a think on it.

darkpagandeath

GarIT wrote: »

Even if one child is being slapped we need legislation to protect it. With some people if I said I hit my dog they'd be outraged but my child they wouldn't care. Some people claim it is a right as a parent to assault their child.

lets use that for child starving as parents dole was cut, oh but that would actually require doing something rather than making some law.

GarIT

darkpagandeath wrote: »

lets use that for child starving as parents dole was cut, oh but that would actually require doing something rather than making some law.

I thought you wanted to keep your discussion to.......

jester77

They better not outlaw the wooden spoon, it needs to be added to the UNESCO heritage list.

darkpagandeath

GarIT wrote: »

I thought you wanted to keep your discussion to.......

I did but so far we have people murdering people in the streets running people over and so on so forth. People trotting out if 1 child mantra.

strobe

Czarcasm wrote: »

Escalated quickly!

Not really... replace any example I used with any anti social or violent or criminal behaviour if you like. I'm not saying slapping a child is equivalent to anything I'm addressing the OPs reasoning and his misinterpreting of the reasoning in the article. I thought that was fairly obvious... but maybe I could have bee clearer... like I say, tis early.

eireannBEAR

Anyone who requires the use of a hand to parent their child has some form of mental deficiency,Its totally unnecessary!

Jesus Wept

darkpagandeath wrote: »

because that's the same .... 33% of people have a problem with drink lets ban that then ...

That's the worst comparison I've ever seen.

anncoates

Unruly girls that will not settle down must be taken in hand.

ElleEm

This legislation is needed.

There are laws to protect adults who are "hit" (assaulted) by other adults, yet children are not protected by law in this regard. It is absurd.

anncoates

eireannBEAR wrote: »

Anyone who requires the use of a hand to parent their child has some form of mental deficiency,Its totally unnecessary!

I tried using my feet to change their nappies but I got shite everywhere.

GarIT

darkpagandeath wrote: »

I did but so far we have people murdering people in the streets running people over and so on so forth. People trotting out if 1 child mantra.

You asked why we need a ban when it's only 33% (you couldn't do the maths to see its 40%) of kids that get slapped. You were given two good reasons and now you are trying to dismiss the reasons and using the worst arguments I've ever seen to do so.

darkpagandeath

strobe wrote: »

Not really... replace any example I used with any anti social or violent or criminal behaviour if you like. I'm not saying slapping a child is equivalent to anything I'm addressing the OPs reasoning and his misinterpreting of the reasoning in the article.

how ? It even says in the article most people don't do it already and disagree with it why bring in a law ? surely educating parents is better. Seems like a lobby groups pet project to get a law introduced to me.

darkpagandeath

Our Year wrote: »

That's the worst comparison I've ever seen.

But the murdering driving over people was reasonable ....

GarIT

darkpagandeath wrote: »

because that's the same .... 33% of people have a problem with drink lets ban that then ...

The problem isn't people drinking it's being drunk and disorderly, go have a look and you will find it already is illegal.

Also as the op why don't you tell us your stance and opinion instead of shooting everybody down with no reason.

darkpagandeath

GarIT wrote: »

The problem isn't people drinking it's being drunk and disorderly, go have a look and you will find it already is illegal.

Also as the op why don't you tell us your stance and opinion instead of shooting everybody down with no reason.

I did above saying Education...

Jesus Wept

darkpagandeath wrote: »

But the murdering driving over people was reasonable ....

Wasn't as bad, no. :-P

GarIT

darkpagandeath wrote: »

But the murdering driving over people was reasonable ....

It was a comparission of stats not the act itself.

You made the clams that there was no need for the law as only 33% were slapped, but 33% comitting any crime is a lot.

If it is banned I hope it is jail time for every single offence. Just like other assaults.

Bacchus

I was slapped on occasion as a child, sometimes got the wooden spoon too. Didn't do me any harm. It was never excessive but it was an effective way to teach me a lesson.

The state should stay out of parenting. Some parents seem to rely too much on the schools to discipline their children and then blame them when their kids are out of control (I'm not a parent, this is just an observation based on conversations with parents and the behaviour of my various nieces/nephews/little cousins and friend's children). It should be up to the parents to raise their child. Instead they get more and more excuses for their precious little angel. Not their fault they're disobedient, the teachers failed them. Not their fault they're failing in school, video games have rotted their brains. Not their fault they're overweight, sweets and fizzy drinks made them fat. Not their fault they don't respect us, the state won't let me give a slap.

Now obviously, there has to be some line for when it becomes child abuse at which point there needs to be intervention but isn't there already systems in place for that?

GarIT

darkpagandeath wrote: »

how ? It even says in the article most people don't do it already and disagree with it why bring in a law ? surely educating parents is better. Seems like a lobby groups pet project to get a law introduced to me.

Educating people out of murder never worked for us. We need a law to protect children.

darkpagandeath

GarIT wrote: »

It was a comparission of stats not the act itself.

You made the clams that there was no need for the law as only 33% were slapped, but 33% comitting any crime is a lot.

If it is banned I hope it is jail time for every single offence. Just like other assaults.

Just to point out slapping is not Illegal yet so what's your point in pointing out things that are ?

darkpagandeath

GarIT wrote: »

Educating people out of murder never worked for us. We need a law to protect children.

Whose being murdered again ?

Frank Lee Midere

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Whose being murdered again ?

Nobody. He's pointing out that cultural changes aren't enough, you need laws.

GarIT

Bacchus wrote: »

I was slapped on occasion as a child, sometimes got the wooden spoon too. Didn't do me any harm. It was never excessive but it was an effective way to teach me a lesson.

The state should stay out of parenting. Some parents seem to rely too much on the schools to discipline their children and then blame them when their kids are out of control (I'm not a parent, this is just an observation based on conversations with parents and the behaviour of my various nieces/nephews/little cousins and friend's children). It should be up to the parents to raise their child. Instead they get more and more excuses for their precious little angel. Not their fault they're disobedient, the teachers failed them. Not their fault they're failing in school, video games have rotted their brains. Not their fault they're overweight, sweets and fizzy drinks made them fat. Not their fault they don't respect us, the state won't let me give a slap.

Now obviously, there has to be some line for when it becomes child abuse at which point there needs to be intervention but isn't there already systems in place for that?

If I punched you it wouldn't do you any harm you would remember in 20 years time. Assault is abuse, if I spanked my 18 year old son or my wife(without her permission) I would end up in jail, but I can do it to a child no bother, that's insane.

darkpagandeath

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Nobody. He's pointing out that cultural changes aren't enough, you need laws.

We have them murdering anyone is already Illegal. And always has been

GarIT

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Just to point out slapping is not Illegal yet so what's your point in pointing out things that are ?

To try to explain to you why it should be illegal but you dont seem to get it.

Czarcasm

strobe wrote: »

Not really... replace any example I used with any anti social or violent or criminal behaviour if you like. I'm not saying slapping a child is equivalent to anything I'm addressing the OPs reasoning and his misinterpreting of the reasoning in the article. I thought that was fairly obvious... but maybe I could have bee clearer... like I say, tis early.

Ohh I'm not disputing the OP's logic was a bit, em, flawed strobe, but that was some strawman

Usually we're about five or six pages into these threads before someone introduces the whole "but what about this, this and this" type stuff.

In keeping with the OP's original idea though, you can legislate all you want against slapping children, but every adult is going to use their own judgement on what's a slap and what's just out and out walloping the child. Thing is, it's very unlikely the child is going to report their parents to the Gardai for the parent slapping them, though I have heard examples of cases where children have called Childline because their parents wouldn't get them phone credit unless they did the dishes!

The children's rights groups in this case too need to get some perspective.

anncoates

I doubt even if it was made law, it wouldn't be workable in the slightest. What will you do? Put thousands of people in jail for slapping their child on the arse while junkies freely roam the streets with neglected children?

Would be a better idea to give more resources and attention to children that are genuinely in danger and neglected.

GarIT

Czarcasm wrote: »

Ohh I'm not disputing the OP's logic was a bit, em, flawed strobe, but that was some strawman

Usually we're about five or six pages into these threads before someone introduces the whole "but what about this, this and this" type stuff.

In keeping with the OP's original idea though, you can legislate all you want against slapping children, but every adult is going to use their own judgement on what's a slap and what's just out and out walloping the child. Thing is, it's very unlikely the child is going to report their parents to the Gardai for the parent slapping them, though I have heard examples of cases where children have called Childline because their parents wouldn't get them phone credit unless they did the dishes!

The children's rights groups in this case too need to get some perspective.

Most children won't report it but if they do they need protection.

GarIT

anncoates wrote: »

I doubt even if it was made law, it wouldn't be workable in the slightest. What will you do? Put thousands of people in jail for slapping their child on the arse while junkies freely roam the streets with neglected children?

Would be a better idea to give more resources and attention to children that are genuinely in danger and neglected.

A child that is slapped is genuinely in danger and neglected. Somebody who thinks assault is ok shouldn't be near a child.

anncoates

GarIT wrote: »

A child that is slapped is genuinely in danger and neglected

Utter hysterical bollocks and insulting to genuine victims of assault and abuse.

And I'm somebody that doesn't think corporal punishment is of much use.

dogslife2014

The Irish are fast becoming obsessed with political correctness; slapping a child is generally now considered inappropriate and in some cases described as abuse, yet drinking excessively 5-7 nights a week is quiet normal and drink driving is not uncommon-we're a nation of hypocrites.

jank

Are we talking like, physical abuse here or a light slap (is it even that) on that ass?
The former is illegal not sure why we need the state passing more laws trying to govern parents in raising their kids. Perhaps the state should look closer to home in how they way they have treated children the past few decades and stop trying to infest the rest of society with their ivory tower pseudo sociological nonsense progressive practices.

truedoom

theres a difference between giving a child a slap when they're acting up, and battering them.

It seems this is considered one and the same?

I got a few smacks with the wooden spoon as a child, when i was being a little ****e, and i'm better for it.

Completely off topic, years ago someone was telling my that their child was having a melt down over something and got very angry with the parent and said you are so mean I am phoning child line on you, and quick as a flash the parent said go ahead and when you are finished with the phone I am phoning parents under stress!.

This is one of those table tennis topic it will just go back and forth with no real consensus. I am against slapping children it is completely unnecessary, but I am also against legislation outlawing it.

Triangla

Rights are rules for people that we as a people have agreed upon.

No rights are 'God given'.

Smacking a child to discipline them should not be seen as a violation of any kind of eventual childrens rights.

There have been abuse cases where kids were beaten severely, horrible cases of neglect.

That is a world away from giving little Timmy a slap on the a$$ because he's screaming for a kinder egg in Tesco.

No Pants

eireannBEAR wrote: »

Anyone who requires the use of a hand to parent their child has some form of mental deficiency

Grand. I'll tell my parents and all my aunts and uncles that they are mentally deficient. :rolleyes:

tin79

GarIT wrote: »

if I spanked my wife(without her permission) I would end up in jail

Really, you think so? I doubt it.

GarIT

Can somebody explain why it is ok to slap a child with an equal amount of force that would land me in jail if it was anyone else? If light slaps are ok make them legal I wanna spank everyone here that disagrees with me, why can't I?

GarIT

tin79 wrote: »

Really, you think so? I doubt it.

If she complained about it I would. If you disagree an explanation would be good, it is illegal after all.

tin79

dogslife2014 wrote: »

The Irish are fast becoming obsessed with political correctness; slapping a child is generally now considered inappropriate and in some cases described as abuse, yet drinking excessively 5-7 nights a week is quiet normal and drink driving is not uncommon-we're a nation of hypocrites.

Try to focus on one topic at a time. You will make more sense that way.

Frank Lee Midere

darkpagandeath wrote: »

We have them murdering anyone is already Illegal. And always has been

That's not what is being argued. Try and comprehend the arguments against your position before you make them.

tin79

GarIT wrote: »

If she complained about it I would.

No you wouldn't. For an unsolicited spanking of your wife...end up in prison? Can you imagine what she would say to the Guards. He spanked me without consent officer! Oh and he kissed me the other night without asking permission. Lock him up.
Ok if you beat her with a bat maybe .. but spanking. Sure I do that for fun.

Czarcasm

GarIT wrote: »

Most children won't report it but if they do they need protection.

From whom, themselves? Try this scenario for size -

Child calls the local police station saying they'd like to report an assault because their mother tried to make them eat their greens. You see how quickly you can lose perspective? Are we also to charge children with assaulting each other for horseplay?

GarIT wrote: »

A child that is slapped is genuinely in danger and neglected. Somebody who thinks assault is ok shouldn't be near a child.

Remember that sense of perspective I talked about earlier? I slapped my child, are you going to have Gardai and social workers call round to my house now and tell me the child can't be staying in that environment, they'll be better off in the care of the state in a foster home instead. Or would you have them escort me away in handcuffs?

That's exactly what you're advocating when you have all these righteous notions and fluffy ideas but expect everyone else to do the ground work.