Providing cover for antenatal appointment

happywithlife

I have an upcoming morning appointment at a matnerity hospital. I have notified the school as required but am reminding DP tomorrow about it.
I'm just wondering, is it the s&s board that'll be used to provide cover or a paid substitute?
Anyone know?

TheDriver

officially its paid subbing but DP might use s&s for tomorrow and save paid cover for a day when they need it.
I had a teacher once ask me about a class stating that there should be paid cover for it etc. I asked her if she could find a sub willing to come in for 1 class......that was the end of that. used the paid class elsewhere when I was stuck for someone

happywithlife

Thanks a mill. Much appreciated.

gaeilgebeo

TheDriver wrote: »

officially its paid subbing but DP might use s&s for tomorrow and save paid cover for a day when they need it.

This leave is covered by a paid substitute.
I see your point about trying to get a sub in for 3 or 4 classes in the morning proving difficult but I would not be happy if I have paid a doctor €50 for a cert to cover my absence only to find that this cover was being "saved" for another day and that my colleagues had to cover my certified leave.

implausible

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

This leave is covered by a paid substitute.
I see your point about trying to get a sub in for 3 or 4 classes in the morning proving difficult but I would not be happy if I have paid a doctor €50 for a cert to cover my absence only to find that this cover was being "saved" for another day and that my colleagues had to cover my certified leave.

Antenatal appointments are free. There'd be no sense in bringing in a sub for a few classes.

losullivan

implausible wrote: »

Antenatal appointments are free. There'd be no sense in bringing in a sub for a few classes.

If it's officially not supposed to be on the rota then it shouldn't be. Why should the people who are doing unpaid work on the rota be used when the money has been made available to pay someone else to do it? The fact that it's more convenient to just stick this leave on the rota really isn't good enough.Those of us who are forced to do this unpaid overtime need to be clear on the few rights we have left. No certified sick leave or antenatal appointments should be foisted upon us. If principals struggle to get someone in for a few periods then they'll have to sort something else out themselves.They could start by informing the department of the bad will taking away this paltry payment has created. All union reps should clarify rota usage with management.

RH149

I'd say there are plenty of unemployed teachers who wouldn't turn down 'just' 3 or 4 classes if they don't have too far to travel-HRA has made subbing very hard to come by and whereas before it might not be worth it to someone to come in for just a morning the situation is very different now.


I'd be furious if I thought the S&S rota was used if I went to the trouble and expense of getting a cert if I was sick- I guess in the future if I'm in that situation I'll be texting plenty of my colleagues on the way out of the gps surgery so they can query it if they get called to supervise instead of a paid sub. Obviously first thing, before you've been to the doctor or while they are waiting for a sub to arrive in S&S has to be used but when they know in advance.....that's maddening!

Pwpane

TheDriver wrote: »

officially its paid subbing but DP might use s&s for tomorrow and save paid cover for a day when they need it.
I had a teacher once ask me about a class stating that there should be paid cover for it etc. I asked her if she could find a sub willing to come in for 1 class......that was the end of that. used the paid class elsewhere when I was stuck for someone

implausible wrote: »

Antenatal appointments are free. There'd be no sense in bringing in a sub for a few classes.

You see, this is where what may seem sensible to you actually breeds resentment in teaching staff. You're basically saying it's too much trouble to find someone so other people will have to give up their prep time and step in for free, against national agreements, to save you the trouble. It's not the teacher's job to find a sub for you. Why ask her in such a fashion unless to put her in her place?

I remember, when the squeeze was first put on substitution money, that our staff was asked to obtain certs when at all possible so that cover could be paid for. People went out of the their way to do this in order to help, but it was noticeable that a paid sub wasn't always used. This caused a lot of resentment because a teacher was then actually subsidising the school by the amount of their doctor's fee.

In the case of a free appointment, the teacher is not subsidising the school with money but another teacher is subsidising the school with unnecessary and unauthorised free work. This is one of the reasons that people can feel used and abused.

happywithlife

Ok op here
crickey I opened a Dan of worms unintentionally.

My DP is only acting so wasn't sure so I thought I'd just clarify here. I knew The Driver et al would have the info.

Just to clarify my DP is always in favour of using paid subs whenever possible and does their best to share the work between part timers and those on small hours

I will only be missing a couple of classes and don't gave to organise the cover myself. As I said I was just clarifying

On a side note, I can see why the ODD time the s&s board would be used and paid cover used another time BUT so long as it wasn't a regular thing I wouldn't have any major grievance. It might shore up a gap in the s&s timetable or something

TheDriver

Pwpane wrote: »

You see, this is where what may seem sensible to you actually breeds resentment in teaching staff. You're basically saying it's too much trouble to find someone so other people will have to give up their prep time and step in for free, against national agreements, to save you the trouble. It's not the teacher's job to find a sub for you. Why ask her in such a fashion unless to put her in her place?
.

I appreciate your point and to clarify about that teacher: She was doing a period of S&S and questioned why she had to do it when there should be paid cover for it and she didn't seem to understand that unless you are in a large urban centre, no sub will travel for 1 paid class. I wasn't asking her to find a sub but merely conveying that its difficult to find a sub on occasions. I would happily go to the "trouble" but sometimes its not feasible however these are rare. This paid period however will be utilised another day when there may be a lot of uncert illness and school business and theres a class period with no one to cover it due to CL49 hours apparently disappearing which would have previously ensured all gaps were filled.

RH149

On a side note, I can see why the ODD time the s&s board would be used and paid cover used another time BUT so long as it wasn't a regular thing I wouldn't have any major grievance. It might shore up a gap in the s&s timetable or something[/QUOTE]





Previously I would have agreed with you on this-I don't see why anyone could object to being called to supervise if they were on the old S&S rota as they were being paid extra for it and they signed up to it....in our school I don't think many people would ever exceed their max S&S hours or anything near it so S&S wasn't a big bone of contention.


But now.....S&S has been forced on people and its unpaid so I think it should only be used when absolutely necessary. There are always part timers who could gladly pick up even one 40 minute period of paid substitution rather than call on another member of staff to give up their 'free' class ie chance to prepare/photocopy/make phone calls or other admin jobs. I think if school managers aren't very respectful of this in the coming years the remaining good will out there after HRA will be gone.

gaeilgebeo

happywithlife wrote: »

On a side note, I can see why the ODD time the s&s board would be used and paid cover used another time.

That "odd" period of covering a paid substitution class with S+S is precious to someone who is on 22 hours and doing the maximum S+S every week.

There is very little time on the timetable for preparation/paperwork/corrections.

I would be a teacher who would have an issue with covering a paid substitution class. End of. Period. No exception.

"Shoring up a gap on the S+S timetable" is no concern of mine.
HRA has taken enough from us and we are doing enough extra work for free.

teacherhead

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

That "odd" period of covering a paid substitution class with S+S is precious to someone who is on 22 hours and doing the maximum S+S every week.

There is very little time on the timetable for preparation/paperwork/corrections.

I would be a teacher who would have an issue with covering a paid substitution class. End of. Period. No exception.

"Shoring up a gap on the S+S timetable" is no concern of mine.
HRA has taken enough from us and we are doing enough extra work for free.

that's grand until you get sick someday and need to leave at lunchtime to go to the doctor and the only thing available is someone on the rota.

**** happens sometimes. People have to deal with it and someday it might be you that has to help out. I don't know what happens in your school but i mine teachers will dig each other out when there's a bit of a crisis on.

gaeilgebeo

teacherhead wrote: »

**** happens sometimes. People have to deal with it and someday it might be you that has to help out. I don't know what happens in your school but i mine teachers will dig each other out when there's a bit of a crisis on.

A planned antenatal appointment is not a crisis.

teacherhead

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

A planned antenatal appointment is not a crisis.

you said you'd have an issue with it. I assumed this applied to all instances.

gaeilgebeo

teacherhead wrote: »

you said you'd have an issue with it. I assumed this applied to all instances.

We have been discussing a planned antenatal appointment( as per title).
Nowhere was a whole school crisis mentioned.

seavill

I agree with previous posters, although my general opinion (which was slated in another thread) about in general getting on with S&S, in an instance like this I would have to differ.

If we were back on the old system where people got paid for S&S I wouldnt have a big problem with it, but now that it is for free it should only be used where it is supposed to be used, which it is not in this instance. Even the thing about covering one class and not being able to get a sub in for one period outside main urban centres, this is true I understand that, however I would struggle to count on one hand the amount of schools in the entire country that don't have 5-10 teachers on small hours or less than full hours who would be delighted with the odd class here and there to add to the wages.

TheDriver

In fairness pt teachers should be given this work but there are situations where they are already timetabled for that period or schools with little pt teachers.

whiteandlight

Aside: I dream of a school with few part time teachers.....

I suspect this thread is starting to/going in circles.

My feeling:

Every effort should be made to get a sub. Realistically you are not talking about 1 class period. Most teachers will have to drive to/wait for their appointment and medical waiting times can be awful, even when you have an appointment. Therefore we are talking 2-3 periods at a minimum. There are many subs around the country who would appreciate it.

If there really is none to be found and the s&s rota is used then perhaps the teacher should be freed up at a later date to compensate. Its not an ideal solution but at least there is some acknowledgement that the teacher should not have been used.

Pwpane

Musicmental85 wrote: »

If there really is none to be found and the s&s rota is used then perhaps the teacher should be freed up at a later date to compensate. Its not an ideal solution but at least there is some acknowledgement that the teacher should not have been used.

Preferably paid.

implausible

It's not always that straightforward to have paid subs available for certified leave and s/s to be used for everything else. In our school, as far as possible, the two systems are used as they should. However, I'll give an example. The other day I was away on a course and there's a part-timer in the school who has my subjects who usually gets my classes. However, she also has her own hours and couldn't cover two of the classes and the other sub was covering another teacher, so the s/s rota was used. What is management supposed to do in this case?

The money goes back into the system anyway. It means that subs in my school can get paid for cover they did under s/s, even when the teacher being covered wasn't on certified leave. It also means a teacher isn't called for s/s at that time.

As long as the s/s system isn't being abused and the class gets covered, I don't see the issue.

whiteandlight

implausible wrote: »

It's not always that straightforward to have paid subs available for certified leave and s/s to be used for everything else. In our school, as far as possible, the two systems are used as they should. However, I'll give an example. The other day I was away on a course and there's a part-timer in the school who has my subjects who usually gets my classes. However, she also has her own hours and couldn't cover two of the classes and the other sub was covering another teacher, so the s/s rota was used. What is management supposed to do in this case?

The money goes back into the system anyway. It means that subs in my school can get paid for cover they did under s/s, even when the teacher being covered wasn't on certified leave. It also means a teacher isn't called for s/s at that time.

As long as the s/s system isn't being abused and the class gets covered, I don't see the issue.

But in this case the teacher on the S and S rota should not have been called? Really if it was a course day this would have been flagged in advance so another teacher could have been brought in for the two classes. And do you really only have 1 part timer and 1 sub in the school? That would be highly unusual in any school I have worked in

teacherhead

Musicmental85 wrote: »

But in this case the teacher on the S and S rota should not have been called? Really if it was a course day this would have been flagged in advance so another teacher could have been brought in for the two classes. And do you really only have 1 part timer and 1 sub in the school? That would be highly unusual in any school I have worked in

do people seriously think that its easy to get a sub for two classes in a day? Next to impossible unless they live beside the school.

the shock horror of only having two part timers! The lowest hours in my school are 16 apart from job sharers. There are approx 5 people in this situation and they are not always free for the one or two classes but they get first call in any paid subbing that's available.

after that i have a list of teachers who do some subbing but i only call them if i have a full day or if its a part of a day if the classes are in a bunch ill give them a bell.

there are issues with subbing and signing on too where it may be more hassle than its worth to take an hours work by the time you get petrol etc.

evolving_doors

Musicmental85 wrote: »

But in this case the teacher on the S and S rota should not have been called? Really if it was a course day this would have been flagged in advance so another teacher could have been brought in for the two classes. And do you really only have 1 part timer and 1 sub in the school? That would be highly unusual in any school I have worked in

I'd agree, I'm privately paid and not on full hours... pre 2014 I got the odd sub day (about 1 every two weeks)...now theres absolutely nothing...same for other part timers.. Coincidence maybe!

I suspect the paid substitution is now going to be 'banked' with the help of S&S the same way unused resource hours are.

whiteandlight

teacherhead wrote: »

do people seriously think that its easy to get a sub for two classes in a day? Next to impossible unless they live beside the school.

the shock horror of only having two part timers! The lowest hours in my school are 16 apart from job sharers. There are approx 5 people in this situation and they are not always free for the one or two classes but they get first call in any paid subbing that's available.

after that i have a list of teachers who do some subbing but i only call them if i have a full day or if its a part of a day if the classes are in a bunch ill give them a bell.

there are issues with subbing and signing on too where it may be more hassle than its worth to take an hours work by the time you get petrol etc.

Unless you are a small school I would say that 5 part timers is out of the norm nowadays. In my current school there is singificantly more part timers than that, including the day to day subs there must be at least 10-15 if not more than that.

I will say we are close to Dublin so perhaps it's easier to get teachers in

implausible

Musicmental85 wrote: »

But in this case the teacher on the S and S rota should not have been called? Really if it was a course day this would have been flagged in advance so another teacher could have been brought in for the two classes. And do you really only have 1 part timer and 1 sub in the school? That would be highly unusual in any school I have worked in

There was no-one available who could have been paid for the class, so the s/s rota was used. The day was of course flagged, but the uncertified sick day being covered by the other part-timer wasn't. We are a fairly small school with a few part-timers who do most of the paid substitution. We have no full substitute teacher. A sub is usually only called in when there is a full days' work or more. I don't think my principal has ever been able to call in a sub to cover one class.

We have had days when the s/s simply can't and won't cover every absence, so that's when the part-timers can get paid for hours that would otherwise be under s/s.

The alternative to this is simply bringing in a sub for every certified and approved absence and not giving the part-timers any work.

seavill

In reality this is down to Quinn and HR. If it was still the case where S&S was optional and paid, 99% of the time I have always found that people go out of their way to help out the school and principal. People will step in where needed, do an extra S&S class on the odd occasion etc. And unless the S&S system was being completely and utterly abused no one would have ever raised an eyebrow over it.

However unfortunately now its different. I agree that it is not always possible to cover every single little thing with a sub however on a once off people may accept however we are being forced into S&S to cover SPECIFIC things, as a result I am not happy to cover anything except for this list of specific things. We are already being taken for a ride by Quinn and the government and unfortunately they have backed principals into a corner on this.

I don't for once second blame principals on this. Regular posters will know I was one that was backing them in other threads, but I do believe we have to have a principled stand on this issue, it is not for one second the fault of my P or DP but we have to get to a stage where the JMB are hounding Quinn saying how impossible it is it run the system the way it currently is and hope for some small change. Unfortunately the principals and JMB won't do this unless their life is made extremely difficult. As I said I do feel for the principals in this case but like has been seen for the past number of years the more we give the more and more and more that is taken, and taken for granted.

In our school if the new system was being used in an incorrect manner we would band together and refuse to partake. I think this is only right. I would feel for our principal in this case, but we cant keep giving for free or else Quinn will be back again and again forcing us into more becuase like everything he see that in general teachers will give and give, on the whole, without arguing and will do it for the good of the school and the good of the kids but from where I stand those days are gone unfortunately. Now don't get me wrong I'm certainly not one of those people that will do 22 hours work and then walk out the door but on things like this I really feel we must make a stand

TheDriver

Indeed it is down to Quinn. However I want to clarify that "saving up the paid subbing" doesn't mean it gets sucked into the system but rather it is used on other days when s&s would/could be used but there a sticky situation e.g. 3-4 teachers out when theres only s&S to cover 2-3 etc. There is no net gain or loss.
The only concern I have about your suggestion is the situation may then arise that sorry we can't have teachers going to this or that in case anyone rings in sick uncertified because there is zero flexibility.

seavill

TheDriver wrote: »

Indeed it is down to Quinn. However I want to clarify that "saving up the paid subbing" doesn't mean it gets sucked into the system but rather it is used on other days when s&s would/could be used but there a sticky situation e.g. 3-4 teachers out when theres only s&S to cover 2-3 etc. There is no net gain or loss.
The only concern I have about your suggestion is the situation may then arise that sorry we can't have teachers going to this or that in case anyone rings in sick uncertified because there is zero flexibility.

I agree with what you are saying and I understand that the money doesn't disappear into the system but I think this was the crux of my point that in reality that problem you talk about in the end about not letting people go is a problem that was created and can only be sorted by Quinn, and there is only one way of getting change with it.

Take for example if loads of teachers were not allowed to go to the new fancy "one day" inservice for the new English JC course, this eventually gets public that people can't go in case someone rings in sick and theres no cover left he will eventually be forced into some change to the system.
However if we continue to cover HIS (not your) ass then the problem perpetuates itself and gets worse and worse, that one class here and there becomes 2 in a while etc. and we end up covering everything with S&S in a few years time. It may seem drastic and far fetched but go back 3 years and would you ever imagine the days we have now where you have to pay to have your free classes that you are entitled to outside your teaching contract. etc.

TheDriver

True but things like inservice are covered anyways. Its things like school business will be the issue such as a meeting between a year head and a parent or 2 teachers bringing kids to a match. And a good number of teachers don't have a clue about hra etc and will only see the school as stopping their activity. Its a difficult situation....

carlie16

Sorry to drag this thread up again but just wanted further clarification. If a cert is required for an ante-natal appointment does this mean that a day will be taken from your certified sick leave?

gaeilgebeo

carlie16 wrote: »

Sorry to drag this thread up again but just wanted further clarification. If a cert is required for an ante-natal appointment does this mean that a day will be taken from your certified sick leave?

No, a cert is not needed and antenatal appointments are not counted towards your sick leave.
They are a seperate type of leave.
You will need to provide evidence of the appointment, be it a letter from the hospital/appointment card.
Paid cover is also provided.

TheDriver

Not appointments however maternity related sick leave may be counted towards your sick leave entitlements.

deiseindublin

According to Tui news it counts as half sick leave, really is a disgrace, maybe my husband could have the kids Instead and use his sick leave, it's total wrong.

TheDriver

Unfortunately like most things in public service, a small number have abused it. I have seen both sides with women genuinely unable to work due to pregnancy issues and a small number taking as much sick leave as possible when there was little wrong. Unfortunately as a profession we tend to shoot ourselves in the foot, another example being uncertified days where some people saw them as days off that should/must be taken

gaeilgebeo

deiseindublin wrote: »

According to Tui news it counts as half sick leave, really is a disgrace, maybe my husband could have the kids Instead and use his sick leave, it's total wrong.

What counts as half sick leave?

Millem

My tui Union rep told me a few weeks ago that she got an email from head office to say pregnancy related sick leave is now not being treated as normal certified. She said she has not received a circular yet but hopes to soon.

mirrorwall14

Millem wrote: »

My tui Union rep told me a few weeks ago that she got an email from head office to say pregnancy related sick leave is now not being treated as normal certified. She said she has not received a circular yet but hopes to soon.

Really? This would be brilliant as I was out a lot sept-nov. Though at the same time Id be pissed coz I had to go out on naternity early because I was worried about using my sick leave

Millem

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Really? This would be brilliant as I was out a lot sept-nov. Though at the same time Id be pissed coz I had to go out on naternity early because I was worried about using my sick leave

Yes she stopped me in the staff room to tell me. I had suffered from hyperememis so only managed to work 2 weeks throughout the whole of my pregnancy but thankfully it was in 2013. I said to her why was she telling me as mine was in 2013 and she said for baby number 2!!!!!!
Lol

gaeilgebeo

Millem wrote: »

Yes she stopped me in the staff room to tell me. I had suffered from hyperememis so only managed to work 2 weeks throughout the whole of my pregnancy but thankfully it was in 2013. I said to her why was she telling me as mine was in 2013 and she said for baby number 2!!!!!!
Lol

Millem, is this definitely being changed?
I know it was being discussed at union meeting but I didn't hear it has reverted back.
Great news if it has.

Millem

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

Millem, is this definitely being changed?
I know it was being discussed at union meeting but I didn't hear it has reverted back.
Great news if it has.

Well that's what she told me.

deiseindublin

Pg 16 of Feb TUI News
http://www.tui.ie/_fileupload/TUI%20News%20February%202015%20Vol%2037%20No%204.pdf

gaeilgebeo

deiseindublin wrote: »

Pg 16 of Feb TUI News
http://www.tui.ie/_fileupload/TUI%20News%20February%202015%20Vol%2037%20No%204.pdf

I am reading that as a woman on pregnancy related sick leave will be on half pay once the full number of sick days is exhausted?
So the previous sick-leave conditions based on pregnancy-related illness have not been restored?

mirrorwall14

No good to me then as mine was post 1st sept 2014