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Should Ireland become a member of CERN?

ride-the-spiral

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0130/501233-cern/

A new group are trying to put pressure on the government to apply for CERN membership. It's a big contradiction that the government are trying to sell Ireland as as a country that contributes to cutting edge research, yet doesn't even have observer status for what's one of the most well known and largest research facilities.

It's a million euro a year, which would contribute much more to the economy than almost anything else the country's spending money on.

Do you think membership is worth it, or is it a pointless endeavour?

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wes

We have spent far more money, on stuff far less worthy. So yes, we should join.

burnhardlanger

ride-the-spiral wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0130/501233-cern/

A new group are trying to put pressure on the government to apply for CERN membership. It's a big contradiction that the government are trying to sell Ireland as as a country that contributes to cutting edge research, yet doesn't even have observer status for what's one of the most well known and largest research facilities.

It's a million euro a year, which would contribute much more to the economy than almost anything else the country's spending money on.

Do you think membership is worth it, or is it a pointless endeavour?

So a million a year for a newsletter?

zl1whqvjs75cdy

The Irish government have absolutely no interest in fundamental scientific research at the moment. It costs a lot, is prone to failure, takes ages and ,in their view, has no commercial benefit. CERN is probably the most fundamental of fundamental research therefore does not fit the current model of spending. I think this model is short sighted and extremely harmful to the Irish research community but sure there ya go, no one wants to hear that.

So yes we should join, but we won't.

My name is URL

We should join, obviously. But joining shouldn't be a prerequisite for Irish companies and scientists to be offered tenders.

It's not the fault of research institutions etc that our government refuse to sign up, yet they are the ones being put at a disadvantage because of it. We could be producing the best scientists, and have the most expertise when it comes to the tenders being offered, but CERN won't even consider those people for the role because of politics. It doesn't seem all that progressive for what is the biggest scientific endeavour in history.

I know they need to be funded, but they should be giving jobs to the best suited people regardless of the politics and economics of the country they live in.

Karl Stein

ride-the-spiral wrote: »

It's a million euro a year, which would contribute much more to the economy than almost anything else the country's spending money on.

Really? Can you tell me how that works? You're claiming that ploughing money into CERN would benefit the Irish economy more than, say, spending it locally on the home insulation scheme?

Alun

My name is URL wrote: »

We should join, obviously. But joining shouldn't be a prerequisite for Irish companies and scientists to be offered tenders.

It seems to be the way European scientific / technical institutions work, certainly it's the case for one I'm familiar with, ESA.

There was a continuous merry-go-round of countries going in and out of favour there depending on how much they paid in in contributions, and companies from the corresponding countries getting contracts. What was interesting though was that in many cases all that happened was that the same contract staff, regardless of their nationalities, simply moved to the new company and carried on doing the same work as before, so nothing really changed.

So, I'm sure there are plenty of Irish staff working at CERN, just not for Irish companies.

BTW Ireland are still a member of ESA as far as I know.

bumper234

Charles Rocher wrote: »

Really? Can you tell me how that works? You're claiming that ploughing money into CERN would benefit the Irish economy more than, say, spending it locally on the home insulation scheme?

1 million a year is hardly "ploughing" and it certainly would benefit Irish companies. Why spend it on home insulation? Do you own an Insulation company? :rolleyes:

RDM_83 again

No we shouldn't. To my mind CERN is a bit like the space program in its earlier years albeit with a purer vision, is there any Irish companies even in a position to tender for parts, if we gain membership we'l end up paying for a lot of skiing trips too etc. Now I know this may sound like an anti-science/knowledge viewpoint. But we already do good research in the Physics field particularly in areas that may be helpful to the Irish economy and why not do some more blue skies research in the Biological fields that may conceivably produce direct positives for Ireland.
While a million a year might not sound like a huge amount it would support a full research team in a separate area.
CERN won't be held back by Irelands lack of membership, and are we really at a loss because we aren't a footnote in the press releases containing nice shiny pictures of big machines and titles like the "god particle".

Tzar Chasm

not being members of cern really hurts us as a nation, we are churning out science graduates, but they can't take part in one of the biggest physics projects ever undertaken due to the shortsightedness of irish politics.

we should have signed up to it many years ago

The Diabolical Monocle

But we already created a black hole...

...in the economy that is.

(ba dum tssh)

Augmerson

I GUESS THIS JUST DOESN'T CONCERN THE IRISH GOVERNMENT HAHAHAHAHA ahhh the bunch of ****ing ***** that they are. We should really do it.

SpaceTime

We should absolutely be a member of it!
It's kind of ridiculous to be calling ourselves a centre for scientific innovation while ignoring stuff like CERN at an official level.

There are also plenty of other member countries that don't have any nuclear programmes so, it's hardly an excuse for non membership either.

Tzar Chasm

RDM_83 again wrote: »

No we shouldn't. To my mind CERN is a bit like the space program in its earlier years albeit with a purer vision, is there any Irish companies even in a position to tender for parts, if we gain membership we'l end up paying for a lot of skiing trips too etc. Now I know this may sound like an anti-science/knowledge viewpoint. But we already do good research in the Physics field particularly in areas that may be helpful to the Irish economy and why not do some more blue skies research in the Biological fields that may conceivably produce direct positives for Ireland.
While a million a year might not sound like a huge amount it would support a full research team in a separate area.
CERN won't be held back by Irelands lack of membership, and are we really at a loss because we aren't a footnote in the press releases containing nice shiny pictures of big machines and titles like the "god particle".

so we shouldn't be involved in new research because the stuff we have is good enough.

sorry but even for AH that's an idiotic position to take.

your comparison to the space program is interesting, consider te technology developed from that, those who were in it from the beginning got the most benefit

and more importantly than all the velcro and polymers and other great stuff developed from the program, the advancement in human understanding of the universe would be enough to justify the billions spent

Karl Stein

It's more than a little ironic, don't you think, that people get all defensive when you ask for some sort of evidence on a thread calling for money to be spent on scientific endeavour.

bumper234 wrote: »

it certainly would benefit Irish companies.

How?

Why spend it on home insulation?

It puts people to work locally.
They spend their wages locally.
The vans need diesel, the workers need breakfast rolls.
People who have their houses insulated save money on bills which can be spent locally.

You get me?

Do you own an Insulation company?

No. Insulating homes is a good example of how the government can spend to stimulate the economy closer to home as opposed to making a spurious claim of future return.

:rolleyes:

What cute little face you have.

The Diabolical Monocle

Augmerson wrote: »

I GUESS THIS JUST DOESN'T CONCERN THE IRISH GOVERNMENT HAHAHAHAHA ahhh the bunch of ****ing ***** that they are. We should really do it.

Hey we should team up.

I already do wedding, birthdays and *bah-mitzvah's

*(2% discount)

SpaceTime

We're not even an observer member which is utterly ridiculous.
Basically, all other major EU member states, including Greece and Portugal seem to be full members of it.

Do we really want to be in a situation that where we have to ask Germany or even Belgium to borrow their worm hole ?!

CERN researchers also produced quite a few things on the side, small little insignificant things like the World Wide Web.

Surely membership would be a huge benefit to Ireland's physics, computer science and electronic engineering departments in the major universities at the very least?

Could we cancel the re-opening the vatican embassy and spend the cash on CERN membership instead??

Karl Stein

Tzar Chasm wrote: »

sorry but even for AH that's an idiotic position to take.

Tbh it's your response that's idiotic. Why don't you take the individual points he's made and counter them?

flynnlives

I applied for a job there years ago but my application was rejected because we aren't a member

Ireland should defo be involved, we have contributed massively to Physics and particle and atomic research;

Ernest Walton, Nobel prize for Physics first person in history to split the atom
Robert Boyle, Boyles law
William Hamilton, invented Hamilton quaternions
Erwin Schrödinger, Schrodingers cat fame
Nicholas Callan, invented the induction coil
Jocelyn Bell Burnell discovered pulsars and was imo robbed of the noel prize
Lord Kelvin, absolute zero, Kelvin scale
George Stoney, named the electron
John Tyndall explained why the sky is blue!!

SpaceTime

I actually know one person who took out UK citizenship to get a job in there!

It's also a *HUGE* missed networking opportunity for Ireland Inc.
The fact that our universities aren't really participating probably means that our academics are not quite in the loop and that our PhD graduates aren't getting the opportunities they should.

Also, it's sending a lot of Irish people to the US instead of to much closer by France/Switzerland to an institution that our universities would actually be directly connected to and benefiting from, which is kind of stupid too.

It's one of the few massive pieces of scientific research equipment that we have every possibility of having 100% full access to.

If Ireland applied, I would be very confident that we'd actually be welcomed with open arms. So, I don't know why exactly we haven't signed up years ago!

NTMK

SpaceTime wrote: »

Surely membership would be a huge benefit to Ireland's physics, computer science and electronic engineering departments in the major universities at the very least?

It benefits STEM in Ireland as a whole as it would show the government in Ireland are willing to put their money where their mouth is.

Not being a member doesn't help that not being a member(or even observer) makes Ireland look backwards in comparison to other countries in STEM fields

Tzar Chasm

Charles Rocher wrote: »

Tbh it's your response that's idiotic. Why don't you take the individual points he's made and counter them?

I did counter his points, the comparison to the space program demonstrated a lack of understanding of the benefits gleaned from such undertakings

my point stands, taking the position that we already have plenty of industry making stuff so there's no need to go developing new technologies is an idiotic stance, without things like cern or esa we have no advancement, the line of thought championed in that post is reflective of an attitude that would send us backwards as a species

SpaceTime

Yeah, I'd agree with that. At an EU level it sends out a very negative message about Ireland when we're trying to portray ourselves as a cutting edge home to R&D investment.

It just looks like we've no interest in science and would leave a lot of question marks over why we haven't bothered signing up.

I'm actually very surprised that our major universities haven't been a lot noisier about it!
We shouldn't ever have a position where Ireland's isolated from these kinds of things purely by lack of action on behalf our politicians or state bodies.

bumper234

Charles Rocher wrote: »

It's more than a little ironic, don't you think, that people get all defensive when you ask for some sort of evidence on a thread calling for money to be spent on scientific endeavour.

How?

Are you saying that there is NO chance any Irish company will ever get some work via the tenders?

It puts people to work locally.
They spend their wages locally.
The vans need diesel, the workers need breakfast rolls.
People who have their houses insulated save money on bills which can be spent locally.

The same could be said for the countless BILLIONS being spent on other projects that have not created a single job.

You get me?

No. Insulating homes is a good example of how the government can spend to stimulate the economy closer to home as opposed to making a spurious claim of future return.

But being a part of the BIGGEST scientific research project ever taken is not a good idea?

What cute little face you have.

Thank you, I have been working on the eyes.

SpaceTime

To me, it makes us look insular and lacking vision to be perfectly honest. Other countries are putting their money where there mouth is and investing in what is the most cutting edge physics research facility on the planet pretty much bar none.

CERN is to Europe what NASA is to the US in many respects. It's that fundamental in terms of what it's done in pushing out the boundaries of knowledge.

It's also a very shining example of European corporative efforts to solve major scientific problems.

I'd rather see some of our national income going on projects that push the boundaries of science than on bailing out failed banks and cleaning up after property bubbles!

NTMK

SpaceTime wrote: »

I'm actually very surprised that our major universities haven't been a lot noisier about it!
We shouldn't ever have a position where Ireland's isolated from these kinds of things purely by lack of action on behalf our politicians or state bodies.

some are happy to keep the status quo. one uni did have a research contract offered on the condition of membership and did make a push but were shot down. a few people that graduated from my course are working there but on UK/Dutch citizenship's

SpaceTime

1 X Large Hadron Collider €3.6 billion (To build)
1 X Anglo Irish Bank bailout cost to state : €29.3 billion.

I know which I'd rather have had!

SpaceTime

NTMK wrote: »

some are happy to keep the status quo. one uni did have a research contract offered on the condition of membership and did make a push but were shot down. a few people that graduated from my course are working there but on UK/Dutch citizenship's

Shot down by CERN or by the Irish "powers that be" and keepers of the purse?

Ruu

Took a Coursera class on Internet History that dealt with CERN (Tim Berners Lee, mostly) and got me very interested in the organisation, was disappointed when found out Ireland was not a member.

ScumLord

Is there anything to be said for having another mass? "Mass" even sounds a bit sciency.

NTMK

SpaceTime wrote: »

Shot down by CERN or by the Irish "powers that be" and keepers of the purse?

Keepers of the Purse i believe. CERN did want to work with the uni but they're bound by their own rules (which are fair imo). UCD/DCU have some sort of deal in place but nothing like proper status.

The company i left ireland to work for would exist without ESA/NASA/CERN and as a result we wouldnt have been able to apply what we learned making super expensive pieces of kit into our standard products which help a lot of people (mostly medical and emergency service areas).