Commencement Notice

alley2020

hi all, i am a bit confused about when you can submit a commencement notice. Lets say we are granted planning permission on 10th Feb can we lodge a commencement notice with the council the next day notifing them we intend to start works in two weeks, or do we have to wait 2 weeks after finalk grant of permission to submit the commencement notice?

sydthebeat

alley2020 wrote: »

hi all, i am a bit confused about when you can submit a commencement notice. Lets say we are granted planning permission on 10th Feb can we lodge a commencement notice with the council the next day notifing them we intend to start works in two weeks, or do we have to wait 2 weeks after finalk grant of permission to submit the commencement notice?

send one in when it suits (11th), and see what happens
i predict nothing would.

blacktea

alley2020 wrote: »

hi all, i am a bit confused about when you can submit a commencement notice. Lets say we are granted planning permission on 10th Feb can we lodge a commencement notice with the council the next day notifing them we intend to start works in two weeks, or do we have to wait 2 weeks after finalk grant of permission to submit the commencement notice?

once you have received a decision to grant from the council (after the expiry of the appeals period) you can then submit your commencement notice. Afaik, there is no 'waiting' period after the decision to grant.

however although you can submit commencement notice after grant as mentioned above, construction must start no less than 14 days and no later than 28 days (between 14 and 28 days after submission if cn)

Gumbo

sydthebeat wrote: »

send one in when it suits (11th), and see what happens
i predict nothing would.

It would be returned incomplete as the date of final grant signature wouldn't be present if only the Notification of Decision to Grant Planning Permission has been issued.

blacktea wrote: »

once you have received a decision to grant from the council (after the expiry of the appeals period) you can then submit your commencement notice. Afaik, there is no 'waiting' period after the decision to grant.

however although you can submit commencement notice after grant as mentioned above, construction must start no less than 14 days and no later than 28 days (between 14 and 28 days after submission if cn)

You need to have received you Final Grant of Planning Permission. Then you can lodge that day giving the 14 day notice.

sydthebeat

kceire wrote: »

It would be returned incomplete as the date of final grant signature wouldn't be present if only the Notification of Decision to Grant Planning Permission has been issued.

When the op says "granted permission" I take it as the final grant, the notification of decision isn't a grant.

Also, cn's for one off houses just end up getting filled in the planning file in my local authority, they aren't validated.

Hopefully things will change ...

Gumbo

sydthebeat wrote: »

When the op says "granted permission" I take it as the final grant, the notification of decision isn't a grant.

Also, cn's for one off houses just end up getting filled in the planning file in my local authority, they aren't validated.

Hopefully things will change ...

In my local LA, they go directly to the BCA and are checked and not officially validated until a BCO does a site inspection to confirm that works have not started. Usually within 7 days of lodgement.

sydthebeat

kceire wrote: »

In my local LA, they go directly to the BCA and are checked and not officially validated until a BCO does a site inspection to confirm that works have not started. Usually within 7 days of lodgement.

I honestly wish all local authorities had taken this approach.

The Bull

With the new regulations coming in on March 1st I have the following question, If you received your final grant of permission lets say on the 28th Feb, then lodged your commencement notice on that day also would you come under the old regulations or the new ones? Even though you wouldn't be commencing works on site till lets say the first or second week in March is the cut off point the day you lodge the commencement notice or the day you start?

sydthebeat

The Bull wrote: »

With the new regulations coming in on March 1st I have the following question, If you received your final grant of permission lets say on the 28th Feb, then lodged your commencement notice on that day also would you come under the old regulations or the new ones? Even though you wouldn't be commencing works on site till lets say the first or second week in March is the cut off point the day you lodge the commencement notice or the day you start?

if lodged, AND ACCEPTED, by 1st march, its under the 'old' control regulations.

if lodged, and not accepted, the new regs it be

buzz11

A further question on this...

If the decision to grant document has a number of conditions that state "Prior to commencement of development....."

Does this mean the conditions must be satisfied;

a) prior to the lodgement of a commencement notice or

b) prior to actual development starting on site ?

sydthebeat

buzz11 wrote: »

A further question on this...

If the decision to grant document has a number of conditions that state "Prior to commencement of development....."

Does this mean the conditions must be satisfied;

a) prior to the lodgement of a commencement notice or

b) prior to actual development starting on site ?

B

alley2020

Can someone tell me ok lets say we get notice of decision to Grant Planning Permission from Council, how long after this do you get Final Grant of Planning Permission?

sydthebeat

alley2020 wrote: »

Can someone tell me ok lets say we get notice of decision to Grant Planning Permission from Council, how long after this do you get Final Grant of Planning Permission?

4 weeks and a few postal days

Gumbo

alley2020 wrote: »

Can someone tell me ok lets say we get notice of decision to Grant Planning Permission from Council, how long after this do you get Final Grant of Planning Permission?

Depends on the LA to be honest. It can be min of 4 weeks plus few postal days up to 6 weeks plus few postal days in Dublin.

You could be unlucky in that your grant is due to be signed today, but they only get signed every 2nd monday, so it may not get signed and posted until Monday week.

blacktea

kceire wrote: »

Depends on the LA to be honest. It can be min of 4 weeks plus few postal days up to 6 weeks plus few postal days in Dublin.

You could be unlucky in that your grant is due to be signed today, but they only get signed every 2nd monday, so it may not get signed and posted until Monday week.

+1

i had that in my LA. notification was on two months. Final grant was whenever....i often chased it up to get it quicker..talkin days to weeks after the final grant was granted

eoin8

We are due to recieve our final grant on the 14th of feb. That doesnt mean we will though!! Is there any way of ensuring we will get it that day, so we can lodge our commencement notice giving the minimum requirement of 14 days(28th) and scraping in before new regs.

We also have a few "prior to commencement" conditions. But once the commencement notice is submitted will we be in the clear in relation to new building regs??

BryanF

eoin8 wrote: »

We are due to recieve our final grant on the 14th of feb. That doesnt mean we will though!! Is there any way of ensuring we will get it that day, so we can lodge our commencement notice giving the minimum requirement of 14 days(28th) and scraping in before new regs.

We also have a few "prior to commencement" conditions. But once the commencement notice is submitted will we be in the clear in relation to new building regs??

you ned to review the conditions with your architect. start looking at them now. only s/he can advise on this as the conditions will be site specific.

with the exception of the conditions, once your final grant is recieved you can submit the commencement notice. but will you be ready to start? thats the question, have you tenders sought constrcution dwgs prepared...

Gumbo

eoin8 wrote: »

We are due to recieve our final grant on the 14th of feb. That doesnt mean we will though!! Is there any way of ensuring we will get it that day, so we can lodge our commencement notice giving the minimum requirement of 14 days(28th) and scraping in before new regs.

We also have a few "prior to commencement" conditions. But once the commencement notice is submitted will we be in the clear in relation to new building regs??

Once the conditions of your planning are met, financial contributions, changes, redesign etc then you can lodge your CN on the 28th February if necessary!

You dont have to have it in by the 14th February.

eoin8

BryanF wrote: »

you ned to review the conditions with your architect. start looking at them now. only s/he can advise on this as the conditions will be site specific.

with the exception of the conditions, once your final grant is recieved you can submit the commencement notice. but will you be ready to start? thats the question, have you tenders sought constrcution dwgs prepared...

Our Arch. has responded to the conditions on our behalf, but the local authority wont review them until after the final grant has been issued.

We are ready to start, tenders sought etc. But if there is a delay on the final grant due to administration etc. And our build comes under new regs, it will be back to the drawing board as we'll be pricing for a different level of work. I.e builder to oversee project and sign off compliances. Assigned certifier for entire project etc.

Much anticipation for the arrival of this final grant..

RKQ

blacktea wrote: »

once you have received a decision to grant from the council (after the expiry of the appeals period) you can then submit your commencement notice. Afaik, there is no 'waiting' period after the decision to grant.

100% agree

Chisler2

When the Council ask for and are supplied with "additional information" what is the status of the application? What are the possible next requirements if the CoCo are satisfied with the "additional information" supplied? Is there a further period when objections can be lodged? Is the the same duration as after first submission of for planning, and how does the "suspension" of consideration of the application during this time relate, time-wise, to the final grant of planning and lodging of CN?

Gumbo

Chisler2 wrote: »

When the Council ask for and are supplied with "additional information" what is the status of the application? What are the possible next requirements if the CoCo are satisfied with the "additional information" supplied? Is there a further period when objections can be lodged? Is the the same duration as after first submission of for planning, and how does the "suspension" of consideration of the application during this time relate, time-wise, to the final grant of planning and lodging of CN?

once you submit AI, the council have 4 weeks to issue a decision.

sydthebeat

Chisler2 wrote: »

1. When the Council ask for and are supplied with "additional information" what is the status of the application?

2. What are the possible next requirements if the CoCo are satisfied with the "additional information" supplied?

3. Is there a further period when objections can be lodged?

4. Is the the same duration as after first submission of for planning, and

5. how does the "suspension" of consideration of the application during this time relate, time-wise, to the final grant of planning and lodging of CN?

1. The status is "at further information (FI) stage"

2. if the council are satisfied that the further information answers the questions raised, then they proceed to a decision. If the council are not satisfied that the information received after the request for FI, then they can ask for 'clarification' on the information submitted.

3. Not unless the council deems the information received after the 'further information' request to be so substantially different from the original application. In that case, the council may, within 4 weeks of receipt of the FI, request the applicant to re advertise in the newspaper that 'significant further information' has been submitted on file. This gives the public two weeks to view the new information and make submissions if they want.
This may arise, for example, if there is a significant redesign because of an FI issue. Most councils will not allow an applicant re advertise until requested to do so.

4. no. as above, the duration to decision is 4 week, unless clarification is sought.

5. Its not a 'suspension' of consideration. Its the council telling the applicant that they need more information in order to come to a measured decision.


Just as a footnote, in my experiences at least 80% of applications go to Further Information.

Chisler2

Thank you for that clear and reassuring response Syd, that this 80% A.I. is the rule not the exception! My application stopped showing as "pending" on the CoCo website which was worrying. I commissioned a report to supply the "additional information" (archaeological assessment of condition of a Ring Fort on my land); the Engineering Surveyor will (hopefully) convey that to the CoCo this week.

From what you write, the CoCo will then consider the A.I. for a period of up to 4 weeks, agree the planning application (likely, as there are no other issues in this case). The actual grant of planning permission could be roughly a month after that. Adding on the minimum 2-week elapse required from submission of CN to earliest possible start-date, the very earliest site-work would be beginning of May.:eek: I submitted the application on 9th September. As a matter of general interest, is 8 months to breaking-the-ground stage the usual time-span for an application for a septic-tank?........not that anything much could have been done in the past few months given the foul weather. The wait has also been useful in working out a very detailed specification.

sydthebeat

Chisler2 wrote: »

Thank you for that clear and reassuring response Syd, that this 80% A.I. is the rule not the exception! My application stopped showing as "pending" on the CoCo website which was worrying. I commissioned a report to supply the "additional information" (archaeological assessment of condition of a Ring Fort on my land); the Engineering Surveyor will (hopefully) convey that to the CoCo this week.

From what you write, the CoCo will then consider the A.I. for a period of up to 4 weeks, agree the planning application (likely, as there are no other issues in this case). The actual grant of planning permission could be roughly a month after that. Adding on the minimum 2-week elapse required from submission of CN to earliest possible start-date, the very earliest site-work would be beginning of May.:eek: I submitted the application on 9th September. As a matter of general interest, is 8 months to breaking-the-ground stage the usual time-span for an application for a septic-tank?........not that anything much could have been done in the past few months given the foul weather. The wait has also been useful in working out a very detailed specification.

all the above is correct...

if you consider that the application was submitted on 9 sept last, and FI was asked for by 4th nov, and youve submitting the FI recently, then in reality the majority of the time span (14 weeks ish) has been outside of the councils application time period, and has been in your hands.

this isnt unusual with such an FI request as archaeologists do a lot of desk study as well as site work.

Bighighball

I'm waiting for site to be transferred to my name and I'm ready to start, when is the last day/date I should post commencement notice to council to be under old regs

Gumbo

Bighighball wrote: »

I'm waiting for site to be transferred to my name and I'm ready to start, when is the last day/date I should post commencement notice to council to be under old regs

The last day it can be received by the council is the 28th February. If you post it on the 28th, they will not get it in time. Better to hand it in in person and collect receipt of lodgement.

buzz11

Does a commencement notice need to be on public view on the site?

Rabbo

No, submitted to local authority only

Gumbo

buzz11 wrote: »

Does a commencement notice need to be on public view on the site?

No but it will be made public on the BCA's website.

buzz11

If there are several planning conditions that state "prior to commencement of development" and "prior to the commencement of demolition work"

and a response is submitted to these;

a) how long do you wait for a reply? (my understanding is that there is no set time limits for reply to be issued)

b) do you wait for a reply before lodging a commencement cert?

c) if you lodge a commencement cert before a reply is received, does this invalidate it?

RossyR

We sent in our commencement notice 2 weeks ago today (Thur).
We are at the moment trying to sort out price with builder... which will prob take another couple of weeks.
In the mean time i was planning on making road into site (it is about 100m thru a field off a side road) to indicate the start of the build

My qusestion is when do i have to start this?
Does it have to be tomo (Fri) or what is my time limit to ensure i am within the old guidelines..
Tks

DOCARCH

RossyR wrote: »

We sent in our commencement notice 2 weeks ago today (Thur).
We are at the moment trying to sort out price with builder... which will prob take another couple of weeks.
In the mean time i was planning on making road into site (it is about 100m thru a field off a side road) to indicate the start of the build

My qusestion is when do i have to start this?
Does it have to be tomo (Fri) or what is my time limit to ensure i am within the old guidelines..
Tks

After the you submit your commencement notice you should be starting work between day 14 and 28 (after submitting the notice), so you still have another 2 weeks to get started.

RossyR

DOCARCH wrote: »

After the you submit your commencement notice you should be starting work between day 14 and 28 (after submitting the notice), so you still have another 2 weeks to get started.

Tks for that DOCARCH
No need to panic so for another couple of weeks...

Gumbo

RossyR wrote: »

We sent in our commencement notice 2 weeks ago today (Thur).
We are at the moment trying to sort out price with builder... which will prob take another couple of weeks.
In the mean time i was planning on making road into site (it is about 100m thru a field off a side road) to indicate the start of the build

My qusestion is when do i have to start this?
Does it have to be tomo (Fri) or what is my time limit to ensure i am within the old guidelines..
Tks

Legally speaking, 14 days from the date that YOU stated on your CN.

Selfbuilder14

Hi all looking for advice. We are building an extension and have planning permission. Not to have to under the new building regulations although we are not sure if we are going direct labour or not we submitted our commencement notice and have to commence by 24th march. We have now closed off our second entrance as per planning and are going to pay the fee next week. We are not in a position to start pouring the foundations next week. We have planning permission to open up a new entrance if we did this would that be considered commencing? Will building control know if we don't start? We intended to start but other factors have come into play and we are waiting for the foundation design from the structural engineer and architect. Will we have to resubmit our commencement notice or will anybody even check.?

4Sticks

Selfbuilder14 wrote: »

We intended to start but ....Will we have to resubmit our commencement notice...... or will anybody even check.?

You are about to break the law ..... you should submit a new CN ..... the level of LA enforcement is so low probably not.

Selfbuilder14

4Sticks wrote: »

You are about to break the law ..... you should submit a new CN ..... the level of LA enforcement is so low probably not.

Thanks not that we will break the law. What constitutes starting? Can we start with our new entrance as per planning? Or do we have to start pouring the foundations? I believe they will just return the commencement notice and we will have to resubmit if the worst comes to the worst

HoofRocks

If you commencement notice is granted. how long do you have afterwards to complete the build. Is there anywhere in the regs that states you must have X amount of work done after the notice is given?

sydthebeat

HoofRocks wrote: »

If you commencement notice is granted. how long do you have afterwards to complete the build. Is there anywhere in the regs that states you must have X amount of work done after the notice is given?

its a commencement notice... so you are giving the local authority notice that you are going to commence in no less than 14 days and no more than 28 days.

the works you have to carry out must constitute "development"
so most councils accept the opening of an entrance, others the stripping of the site etc.

4Sticks

Any works you do not complete by the time your planning permission expires - need additional planning permission.

HoofRocks

sydthebeat wrote: »

its a commencement notice... so you are giving the local authority notice that you are going to commence in no less than 14 days and no more than 28 days.

the works you have to carry out must constitute "development"
so most councils accept the opening of an entrance, others the stripping of the site etc.

Yes I know how much notice you must give.

What determines 'development' is that outlined in the regulation? I just want to know where it states the level of work that must be done.

I understand now it must all be completed within the planning

sydthebeat

HoofRocks wrote: »

Yes I know how much notice you must give.

What determines 'development' is that outlined in the regulation? I just want to know where it states the level of work that must be done.

I understand now it must all be completed within the planning

'development' is something that would require planning permission.
why dont you tell us what the issue is ?

HoofRocks

Our commencement notice is granted under the old regulations. The level of works we completed were a site survey and we had hedges trimmed in order to prepare to open up. Two weeks after the date we had on our commencement notice a building control officer visited the site and we received a letter the next day saying our commencement notice was void.

4Sticks

In the opinion of the BCA you have not started yet.

BryanF

HoofRocks wrote: »

Our commencement notice is granted under the old regulations. The level of works we completed were a site survey and we had hedges trimmed in order to prepare to open up. Two weeks after the date we had on our commencement notice a building control officer visited the site and we received a letter the next day saying our commencement notice was void.

add on costs for submitted full dwgs to LA, main contractor involvement, assigned designer and certifier.

sorry for your troubles

please address your concerns to philip.hogan@oireachtas.ie

martinn123

BryanF wrote: »

please address your concerns to philip.hogan@oireachtas.ie

Actually it's

phil.hogan@oireachtas.ie

Tel.01-6183093

http://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/contact/

HoofRocks

4Sticks wrote: »

In the opinion of the BCA you have not started yet.

My argument to that is opinions are not regulations

HoofRocks

martinn123 wrote: »

Actually it's

phil.hogan@oireachtas.ie

Tel.01-6183093

http://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/contact/

I've been in touch with chief fire officer and he has told me that my interpretation of the rule and his interpretation of the rule is different.

That dosn't pass in my book.

What do I say to the minister? Am I fighting a loosing battle?

4Sticks

I don't mean to be glib - really I don't.
But you don't have an argument.
You are the player. The BCA is the ref.
Your CN is invalidated.

4Sticks

Consumer to benefit from better regulation of building sector

Expect big Phil to tell you that