Hi vis discussion thread (read post #1)

cletus

Is there any country in the world where builders vests are compulsory on order to walk down the road/street?

Will the above councillor be keeping a builders vest on his passenger seat to pull on every time he parks up to go into a shop/get a coffee?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119935024#Comment_119935024

Not the same but in the same vein, I know in some parts of America you have to wave a flag as you cross the road.

Crazy, but true

Macy0161

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119935024#Comment_119935024

The only builders vest regulations I've personally come across for road users is France - where you have to carry one for every passenger in your vehicle in case you breakdown. But like you say, such a law for pedestrians would result in the same, given every time you leave your vehicle, you and your passengers would have to put them on!

magicbastarder

in a breakdown, are car passengers required to wear them, i wonder?

perhaps it's for the possiblility of a breakdown on the motorway where the advice usually is to leave the vehicle and cross behind the barrier.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119935285#Comment_119935285

I don't believe that it is the law here to have high-viz for the driver or passengers. However, in terms of the "get out of the car to safety behind the armco barriers" advice, I posted this on the Random Video Thread earlier...

https://twitter.com/ITNArchive/status/1597221270227013632

Macy0161

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119935285#Comment_119935285

I'd assume it's for that purpose, and maybe it isn't one for everyone (we've always had them thanks to the schools/ rsa 🙄) - I didn't actually question it. Warning Triangle, Hi Viz, Breathalyser Kit and spare bulbs. Not sure whether the spare bulbs are compulsory, or just the gendarmes just actually enforce the law if you have a bulb blown!

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119935285#Comment_119935285

In France, I think the only obligation is for the driver to have their high-viz available without getting out of the car. I'm not sure if it is mandatory for others or recommended

tomasrojo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119935024#Comment_119935024

I don't think so. Estonia has a longstanding law about wearing a reflector in winter when you're on foot though.

https://news.err.ee/1608780040/explainer-why-do-i-need-to-wear-a-reflector-during-winter-in-estonia

The evidence they give in that article for its efficacy seems a bit weak, as pedestrian fatalities have fallen in most OECD countries in the last thirty years, with several competing explanations. But at least a reflector is a lot smaller than a builder's vest.

Macy0161

I have less issue about wearing reflective clothing/ detail tbh. Most cycling gear has reflective detail anyway. Probably a generational thing, but it was armbands and reflective browne belts that we recommended when I was a child, for the dark. Not the obsession with builders vests day or night!

Paddigol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119943319#Comment_119943319

It's mad. People genuinely think it's the yellow in the vests that make them visible. When I pointed out to a Garda that my cycling gear had - as you mention - plenty of tastefully designed reflective strips, he was having none of it. Not visible enough apparently. Pointing out the lights front and (2) rear didn't change his mind either. I just left it at that point and cycled on.

Most of the really cr@p cyclists I see on the roads are subscribers to the Hi-Viz mantra. They'll have a big builders vest flapping about, no lights, and sail through red lights, no indicating and hopping onto footpaths to get to the front of queues.

magicbastarder

IIRC, what makes the yellow/orange/pink part of hi-vis, hi-vis is that they fluoresce; but in order to do this, UV light needs to fall on them.

the only headlights which give off UV are xenon bulbs, from what i can find. so bar the reflective strips, the fabric parts of a builder's jacket don't make a difference at night.

McHardcore

Aren’t car headlamps (bar the fancy new LED or laser) the xenon/incandescent bulbs that you mention?

Would this not mean that as a source of UV light, fluorescence would work at night in their vicinity?

Im not saying that it’s better than reflective strips, just that they are sources of UV light for fluorescence at night.

magicbastarder

i didn't think incandescent bulbs are a source of UV? they're not the same as xenon anyway.

though i have seen reference online to them putting UV filters in the bulbs to prevent UV from damaging the outer structure of the light casing (i guess to stop the 'glass' yellowing).

Macy0161

Even if they were, you'd still see reflective further away.

McHardcore

Yea, although small, incandescent bulbs do give off UV. Their sub-group, halogen bulbs, give off even more UV. Most car headlamp technologies emit some (albeit, small) amounts of UV, although they are not designed this way. But I agree, nighttime isn't when fluorescence is the most effective.

Fluorescence works by absorbing the UV and emitting it as visible light, hence the ability for fluorescence material to be brighter than normal or even white clothing. When it has no UV to convert, it is as good as someone wearing bright colored clothing, which is a good fall-back to have.

Reflective clothing is a very different technology. It reflects oncoming rays directly back to the source. If the receiver (drivers eyes) are not roughly in the same line as the emitter (car headlamps), it loses its effectiveness. It is no better than bright clothing while it is lit in daylight, or lesser amount when it is lit indirectly by streetlights or by another drivers headlamps, for example. Another advantage of fluorescence is that it is super cheap, you can pick up a vest for next to nothing. Fluorescence can be appear brighter while being indirectly lit, unlike reflective clothing on its own. One often overlooked advantage is its recognisability. Road workers, emergency service personnel, the Gardai, heavy industry workers, even fishermen wear fluorescent and reflective high-vis clothing. When we see someone wearing it we immediately recognize it as a person in an vunerable environemnt. It can take longer to recognise what a flashing bicycle light is, for example. For these reasons both reflective, flourescent, or lights can complement each other to make the wearer better seen. Each has weaknesses where the other can compensate for.

Unfortunately, research out there either supporting or dismissing the types of high-vis clothing is mixed at best. Its a shame on the governments and institutions that no major research is being made into this area.

Fluorescence has a dirty name with some in the cycling community which I think is understandable, but unfair. It is understandable, as drivers and politicians will often wrongly victim blame cyclists for "not wearing fluorescent clothing" when the main issue is the lack of cycling facilities, the carelessness of drivers or the safety of their vehicles. As a result, some in the cycling community has pushed back by dismissing fluorescent material altogether. This is unfair, as the issue isnt with the technology, its with the people making the wrong accusations in the first place.

Bright bicycle lights, reflective, fluorescent and bright clothing can improve the visibility of vulnerable road users. Probably in that order of most importance. That said, we shouldn't legislate cyclists to have to use any of these technologies. The less hindrance there is for someone to switch from driving to cycling the better off we all are as a society. A bicycles best selling point is the ease at which you can just pick one up and go.

zell12

UK letters

Stark

"push cycle enthusiast"

RobertFoster

"Willy Richards" 🤔

Thelonious Monk

https://twitter.com/wilkinsonphoto/status/1611301717118980098

this is what happens when houses don't wear high vis or helmets or pay heed to red lights.

CramCycle

There was a house at the Clonskeagh entrance to UCD that every few months would have a new bit of damage done by someone flying up the Clonskeagh Road at night and then hitting tyhe kerb as the road (barely) bends, Normally just the wall came down but I think twice I seen where the car was fast enough to go through the wall and into their living room.

magicbastarder

near where i grew up, there was a house whose garden wall was probably knocked down6 or 8 times; and it wasn't someone missing a bend, it was someone coming to a T junction which somehow surprised them, and they ploughed straight on.

it's the one on the roselawn road in D15, where the delwood road meets it. disappointingly, none of the google street view history records any damage...

magicbastarder

my mate's dad was responsible for those speed bumps. one night an off duty guard hit his citroen parked on the road outside his house and the low nose on the citroen resulted in the garda's car rolling over.

check_six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120081033#Comment_120081033

Sure there's a 30kmh limit on Delwood Road. You couldn't blame someone for zoning out, or climbing into the back seat to read a book, or eat a sandwich at that kind of pace. Now if you could go at, say, 160kmh, on Delwood Road there would be no problems whatsoever. You could get rid of the stop signs too. Problem solved!

zell12

🙄 ..

https://twitter.com/DaymoBrew/status/1620187509698498561?s=20

Macy0161

We used to wear builders jackets in clubs, back in the day... 🙂🙂🙂🙂🙂🙂🙂

Paddigol

Some of the cars parked dumped on the side of main streets/ just outside town centres (looking at you Bray!) could do with mandatory hi-viz vests when parked up abandoned.

zell12

Much victim-blaming going on here

https://road.cc/content/news/now-police-ask-pedestrians-wear-hi-vis-299283

zell12

" Pedestrians and cyclists must wear high-vis clothing. "

https://twitter.com/GardaTraffic/status/1630271938609270784?s=20

Paddigol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120296388#Comment_120296388

Getting absolutely slaughtered in the comments LOLZ. What sort of numpty publishes a tweet like that? It seems, from my time on buses, in cars and cycling over the past 5 years or so that the Gardai have pretty much washed their hands of policing the roads. They'll turn up to a RTA, but other than that they're as likely to be the ones tailgating you as they are to be pulling drivers over for speeding or using phones.

zell12

That a humiliating apology?

https://twitter.com/GardaTraffic/status/1630854450179866624?s=20