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Holocaust Memorial comments

Royal Legend

What are peoples opinions on Alan Shatters comments today. As Minister for Justice, does he overstep the mark in relation to commenting on his beliefs in line with his own religion?

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0126/500303-right-wing-party-support/

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biko

To touch upon the Holocaust.
Many Jews escaped the nazis and found safety in Malmo, Sweden.
These Jews, now old, are leaving since the rise of MENA immigration has meant anti-Semitic crime has risen and the left-wing mayor sits on his hands. We see the same pattern in France.
Ostensibly because of the Israel-Palestinian conflict somehow, but it's really just pure religious hatred and racism.
I think it's good that we remember the history and the crimes against jews by nazis but that doesn't mean that the threat against jews hasn't a new/old dimension now.

biko

Raelyn Mammoth Raid wrote: »

Did he say they were anti-jewish? I mean, looking at the link in the op there I can't find any reference to jews at all apart from the Independent quoting the number who were killed in the Holocaust.

Well the text goes:

He said that the crisis had revitalised pre-existing parties of the extreme right whose anti-Semitic and racist rhetoric is both corrosive and dangerous.
...
Minister Shatter cited Golden Dawn in Greece, Jobbik in Hungary, the National Front in France.
The other organisations he expressed concern over are Ataka and the Bulgarian National Party in Bulgaria, and the British National Party and UKIP in Britain.

I'd say EU with its politics has caused these parties to blossom (in part). Not everyone still thinks a European federation, run from Brussels, is the way to go.

Ireland has suffered more than most because of the bankers failure, you don't see us attacking jews (unless there is some loose connection with Israel at play).

Royal Legend

wolfpawnat wrote: »

I find it fascinating he commenting on Right Wing groups when FG are right wing, now, not Nazi-esque, but still they are a conservative, right wing party.

The Holocaust is something we should never forget, but being right wing doesn't equate to mass murder, unless I missed something. I disagree with Right Wing policies btw. But again, his party are right wing. I think he forgot to read the party agenda upon joining. As for getting personally involved, a bit, yes IMO. He does not recognize the issue in the Middle East as the two-sided war it is, but people seem somewhat reluctant to call him on it.

Thank you. I did not articulate my point as well as you.

That the man acts arrogant and superior does not help him.

Wibbs

downonthefarm wrote: »

Did many jews come to dublin after the war?didi they get on with the locals

There were already "local" Dubliner Jews. They had gotten on with the "locals" from way back. I grew up on the South Circular Road and had a good few childhood mates who were Jews. And that boiled down in the kid mind to "poor buggers can't eat sausages, but lucky buggers don't have to go to mass". Quite a few were gingers too(which in fairness garnered some slagging

), which may suggest "getting on with the locals" had more of a "how you dooooin" vibe.

Actually quite the number of Jewish folks out there have red hair, Woody Allen is a ginge, so it seems a Murphy/O'Whatever may have been a bit of a catch back in the day...

wolfpawnat

I find it fascinating he commenting on Right Wing groups when FG are right wing, now, not Nazi-esque, but still they are a conservative, right wing party.

The Holocaust is something we should never forget, but being right wing doesn't equate to mass murder, unless I missed something. I disagree with Right Wing policies btw. But again, his party are right wing. I think he forgot to read the party agenda upon joining. As for getting personally involved, a bit, yes IMO. He does not recognize the issue in the Middle East as the two-sided war it is, but people seem somewhat reluctant to call him on it.

Wibbs

WhatNowForUs? wrote: »

Its a pity the government of the time let itself down during the war period.

They weren't the only government who did, not by a long shot. Vanishingly few governments didn't restrict Jewish immigration into their countries at that time of need. Including the US and UK. In many if not most cases it was down to brave local individual officials that stamped travel papers to get people out, often to much hassle from the top down. Jews were a hot potato that very few jurisdictions wanted anything to do with.

downonthefarm

Did many jews come to dublin after the war?didi they get on with the locals

Capt'n Midnight

Reekwind wrote: »

It may sound harsh but the horror of the countless deaths in the East wasn't matched by novelty. Europeans had been doing the same to non-Europeans for decades, and the Nazis certainly saw their anti-Slav campaigns as colonial ventures. But putting ordinary people in gas chambers? That was a new level of horror

The Holocaust shouldn't overshadow the other deaths, and I don't believe that it does, but it will always have a larger impact on popular memory in the West

The real horror was the ruthless efficiency.

At an extermination camp, the men would be in the showers in as little as eight minutes after the train arrived.

Chełmno seven survivors out of 152,000
Belzec two out of 430,000
Treblinka II 70 out of 875,000 (uprising)
Maly Trostenets No Survivors out of 165,000
Sobibor 59 out of 200,000 (and 50 of those were part of a mass break out)

BillyMitchel

biko wrote: »

I'm pretty sure Golden Dawn are anti-Jewish too. Very nazi-style party.

Is that not the Greek party that's been outlawed after a member murdered another party member?

WhatNowForUs?

Wibbs wrote: »

This. Very much this RW. The attitudes and actions against Jews were by no means a new thing in European thought. The "Final Solution" gives the game away in the title. The other solutions the Nazi's attempted and used had a loooong history. EG IN the UK and Ireland up to the mid 19th century Jews were by law supposed to wear a yellow badge to mark them out. Sound familiar? Indeed it was our own John Toland and Daniel O'Connell who helped repeal that travesty of a "law".* As a Mr Raul Hilberg(fantastic scholar, sadly no longer with us, but the man who historically framed the Holocaust(against some resistance at the time) and well worth reading) noted in his discussions on the period it was the Final part that changed the maps in European philosophy on the matter, the rest they'd copied.

Oh before that period there was an all too awful finality visited upon Jewish folks in Europe, the record in Eastern Europe and Russia is both eye opening and very very disturbing. Deadly Pograms were a fcuking annual national sport and it was organised to a fair degree, but not to the degree Fascist Germany took it.

*before some right on guilt tripper comes in, the Limerick pogram was an outlier in Irish history. The relations between Irish people and Irish Jewish people actually stood out as different compared to mainland Europe and indeed England. In the 19th century Daniel O'Connell could claim with some authority that; "Ireland has claims on your ancient race, it is the only country that I know of unsullied by any one act of persecution of the Jews". Jewish Irish people though always small in number came to the fore many times in our history. A Jewish bloke was voted in as major of Limerick in the 16th century. Very unusual in European history. Irish Jews were heavily involved in charitable works during the famine. The aforementioned Danny O'Connell added in Irish jews with Irish Catholics as both needing more rights and equality. An interesting period and well worth reading up on. OH and the Limerick pogram? Well Jewish folks who had got the fuq outa Dodge when it kicked off found themselves in Cork lining up for an exodus to America(a well worn trail for Irish people, Jews or not). The people of Cork opened their doors and hearts to them as fellow Irishmen and women fleeing bullshít and because of that many stayed and the number of Jewish folks in Cork increased.

Its a pity the government of the time let itself down during the war period.

efb

As our justice minister I think its imperative he addresses it.

J_E

biko wrote: »

I'm pretty sure Golden Dawn are anti-Jewish too. Very nazi-style party.

They're the most worrying of any of the parties he mentioned. Some awful, awful stories about them last year.

This image says more about them than any amount of examples I could make.

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2013/09/19/fyss-s19.html
A very messy series of events...

Wibbs

Reekwind wrote: »

It's understandable. The Nazis killed tens of millions of non-Jews (and Jews weren't even the largest victim group) but the antisemitic programme of genocide was, while not unique, certainly a prominent feature of the Nazi regime.

It may sound harsh but the horror of the countless deaths in the East wasn't matched by novelty. Europeans had been doing the same to non-Europeans for decades, and the Nazis certainly saw their anti-Slav campaigns as colonial ventures. But putting ordinary people in gas chambers? That was a new level of horror

The Holocaust shouldn't overshadow the other deaths, and I don't believe that it does, but it will always have a larger impact on popular memory in the West

This. Very much this RW. The attitudes and actions against Jews were by no means a new thing in European thought. The "Final Solution" gives the game away in the title. The other solutions the Nazi's attempted and used had a loooong history. EG IN the UK and Ireland up to the mid 19th century Jews were by law supposed to wear a yellow badge to mark them out. Sound familiar? Indeed it was our own John Toland and Daniel O'Connell who helped repeal that travesty of a "law".* As a Mr Raul Hilberg(fantastic scholar, sadly no longer with us, but the man who historically framed the Holocaust(against some resistance at the time) and well worth reading) noted in his discussions on the period it was the Final part that changed the maps in European philosophy on the matter, the rest they'd copied.

Oh before that period there was an all too awful finality visited upon Jewish folks in Europe, the record in Eastern Europe and Russia is both eye opening and very very disturbing. Deadly Pograms were a fcuking annual national sport and it was organised to a fair degree, but not to the degree Fascist Germany took it.

*before some right on guilt tripper comes in, the Limerick pogram was an outlier in Irish history. The relations between Irish people and Irish Jewish people actually stood out as different compared to mainland Europe and indeed England. In the 19th century Daniel O'Connell could claim with some authority that; "Ireland has claims on your ancient race, it is the only country that I know of unsullied by any one act of persecution of the Jews". Jewish Irish people though always small in number came to the fore many times in our history. A Jewish bloke was voted in as major of Limerick in the 16th century. Very unusual in European history. Irish Jews were heavily involved in charitable works during the famine. The aforementioned Danny O'Connell added in Irish jews with Irish Catholics as both needing more rights and equality. An interesting period and well worth reading up on. OH and the Limerick pogram? Well Jewish folks who had got the fuq outa Dodge when it kicked off found themselves in Cork lining up for an exodus to America(a well worn trail for Irish people, Jews or not). The people of Cork opened their doors and hearts to them as fellow Irishmen and women fleeing bullshít and because of that many stayed and the number of Jewish folks in Cork increased.

Cool_CM

Royal Legend wrote: »

What are peoples opinions on Alan Shatters comments today. As Minister for Justice, does he overstep the mark in relation to commenting on his beliefs in line with his own religion?

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0126/500303-right-wing-party-support/

In relation to commenting on his beliefs in line with his own religion? What does his religion have to do with it? There's no controversy here and I'm fairly sure that other people who aren't Jewish, myself included, would probably be of the same opinion as him in this instance.

jellyboy

can't we all hug and just get along?
and try to understand that whatever the viewpoint of others a lot of people were left fatherless ,motherless,aunts,sisters,brothers and multiples of combinations of family members died

numbers mean nothing,pain of loss is everything

I'm off to make mint tea,anyone want one?

tayto lover

Charles Rocher wrote: »

OMG Alan Shatter is Jewish?

I was wondering where those Christian children's blood was disappearing to.

He must be stopped lads.

He was but he said he was on Dail business and drove on leaving the garda standing there.

CrabRevolution

Reekwind wrote: »

But because he's a Jew he is not allowed to express an entirely secular, understandable and admirable warning about the rise of the extreme right in Europe? Because that's a specifically "Jewish belief" that's not shared by anyone else?

It's understandable. The Nazis killed tens of millions of non-Jews (and Jews weren't even the largest victim group) but the antisemitic programme of genocide was, while not unique, certainly a prominent feature of the Nazi regime.

It may sound harsh but the horror of the countless deaths in the East wasn't matched by novelty. Europeans had been doing the same to non-Europeans for decades, and the Nazis certainly saw their anti-Slav campaigns as colonial ventures. But putting ordinary people in gas chambers? That was a new level of horror

The Holocaust shouldn't overshadow the other deaths, and I don't believe that it does, but it will always have a larger impact on popular memory in the West

I'm not trying to raise a usual anti holocaust/semitic argument here, but how are Jews 'ordinary people' where Slavs werent....?

Karl Stein

OMG Alan Shatter is Jewish?

I was wondering where those Christian children's blood was disappearing to.

He must be stopped lads.

catallus

Mr Shatter said: "it is imperative that governments and mainstream parties "repudiate the reprehensible rhetoric of those who contaminate our poltical discourse and attempt to inflame dangerous prejudice." (RTE)

Leaving the context of the memorial aside for just a second, his comments seem to spring from the idea that modern European politics is founded on left-wing liberalism and that any interference from the centrist-right or far-right is to be fought at all cost; for me this reveals a lot about the democratic deficit at the heart of Europe; the guys who are in power are un-elected technocrats who have slowly built up a complex political/corporate facade around themselves in a manner which leads elected politicians to bow down before the demands of the technocrats even at the expense of their own constituents. This would include the use of propaganda to ensure that the right are besmirched with the legacy of the second world war.

sawdoubters

the right wing has been coming up for years,i don't see anything wrong in his statement

expectationlost

shatter defending our facilitation of kidnapping, torture, and invasion this week in the dail

biko

I'm pretty sure Golden Dawn are anti-Jewish too. Very nazi-style party.

Reekwind

Royal Legend wrote: »

Honest answer is no.

But because he's a Jew he is not allowed to express an entirely secular, understandable and admirable warning about the rise of the extreme right in Europe? Because that's a specifically "Jewish belief" that's not shared by anyone else?

CrabRevolution wrote:

One aspect of the area of Holocaust commemoration that sorta grates with me is the pretty widespread perception out there, especially in the US, that the Holocaust was the worst part of World War 2.

It's understandable. The Nazis killed tens of millions of non-Jews (and Jews weren't even the largest victim group) but the antisemitic programme of genocide was, while not unique, certainly a prominent feature of the Nazi regime.

It may sound harsh but the horror of the countless deaths in the East wasn't matched by novelty. Europeans had been doing the same to non-Europeans for decades, and the Nazis certainly saw their anti-Slav campaigns as colonial ventures. But putting ordinary people in gas chambers? That was a new level of horror

The Holocaust shouldn't overshadow the other deaths, and I don't believe that it does, but it will always have a larger impact on popular memory in the West

Nodin

Raelyn Mammoth Raid wrote: »

Did he say they were anti-jewish? I mean, looking at the link in the op there I can't find any reference to jews at all apart from the Independent quoting the number who were killed in the Holocaust.

Jobbik are. The French lot were in the past, but are toning it down in the hope of getting Jewish votes with an anti-muslim line.

4zn76tysfajdxp

biko wrote: »

He's right in that there is a rise in right-wing and nationalist parties in Europe.
Whether it's a bad thing for jews is difficult to say yet.

Shatner bundles a lot of different parties together. I wouldn't say Front National in France or UKIP in UK are anti-jewish.
In fact I see more anti-Semitism on boards than I do from those parties.

Did he say they were anti-jewish? I mean, looking at the link in the op there I can't find any reference to jews at all apart from the Independent quoting the number who were killed in the Holocaust.

biko

He's right in that there is a rise in right-wing and nationalist parties in Europe.
Whether it's a bad thing for jews is difficult to say yet.

Shatner bundles a lot of different parties together. I wouldn't say Front National in France or UKIP in UK are anti-jewish.
In fact I see more anti-Semitism on boards than I do from those parties.

CrabRevolution

One aspect of the area of Holocaust commemoration that sorta grates with me is the pretty widespread perception out there, especially in the US, that the Holocaust was the worst part of World War 2.

If you ever see some speculation of "what if Hitler did x, then y wouldnt have happened, preventing z" etc., the final consequence is almost always '"and therefore the holocaust wouldnt have happened", as though the other 60 million+ lives lost in the war werent the worst of it.

I in no way doubt the extent or absolute inhumanity of the acts the 3rd Reich committed, and find Holocaust denial stupid at best, and dangerous at worst. Plus I've no problem with commemorating and remembering the victims. But I am not a fan of the way the Holocaust dead are elevated above the many many millions of others who died in that war.

Frank Lee Midere

Royal Legend wrote: »

Yes, but when he makes a personal comment, he is still the MOJ so his comment is seen imo as political or representing Irelands position.
My post is in relation to Minister Shatter using his position as a forum for his own beliefs.

I would also prefer if people refrain from turning the discussion into a numbers game. I have no doubt that 6m people died at the hands of the Nazi's, its a proven fact and there are only one set of people who try to dispute it.

What would you have the Irish MOJ say on holocaust Memorial Day? What was specifically "Jewish" in his condemnation of the far right?

tayto lover

Horrible atrocities were carried out against the Jews. Nobody wants to see that again and Shatter is correct to say it.
I can never understand though how the Israeli's can treat the Palestinians the way they do after the suffering the Jews endured.

Royal Legend

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Well I've just read that link. My answer is no. Here's a question - were he not Jewish and mentioned on holocaust Memorial Day that the rise of right wing groups were a cause of concern - would we have this thread?

Honest answer is no.