Castleknock in receivership now

Arsenium

Thought there would have been a thread on this. Its reported in the Indo this evening.

Another high end course in a bit of bother....

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/receivers-appointed-to-luxurious-castleknock-golf-club-29948036.html

uberwolf

the suggestions seems to be that this is part of the wider groups problems, so hopefully the course/club business end of things can be sustained.

PARlance

uberwolf wrote: »

the suggestions seems to be that this is part of the wider groups problems, so hopefully the course/club business end of things can be sustained.

Yip, I know of one golf management company that are in talks about taking it over.

Russman

It might be in bad taste to say it, but I'd say a lot of clubs around are hoping and praying it goes and they get a slice of the action !

Oilbeefhooked!

Russman wrote: »

It might be in bad taste to say it, but I'd say a lot of clubs around are hoping and praying it goes and they get a slice of the action !

Hoping and praying that people might lose jobs n money!!? Bad Taste is an understatement id say!!!

dwd

I was at castleknock over the Christmas with a boards crowd and I have to say I found it an excellent setup. I would guess the problems must be with the hotel or the group that owns it. I doubt there is any chance of the course itself having any problems in the long run, It's location is far to good.

Russman

Oilbeefhooked! wrote: »

Hoping and praying that people might lose jobs n money!!? Bad Taste is an understatement id say!!!

I think clubs that are struggling to keep their heads above water wouldn't be too interested in the bigger picture - they need bums on seats.

Oilbeefhooked!

Russman wrote: »

I think clubs that are struggling to keep their heads above water wouldn't be too interested in the bigger picture - they need bums on seats.

If Castleknock were to go under (which it wont) and i was to lose my annual sub , it would not leave me in a position to go and help/fund another struggling club.
So maybe not as black n white as you claim.
Pardon me if as someone directly affected by this news today, i might be a bit touchy at the thought of people hoping and praying i would lose my money and the great lads/ladies that work at the club lose their jobs!!

Russman

I'm not having a go at you at all, or wishing you lose your money, or people lose their jobs, all I'm suggesting is that there will be clubs out there hoping that they get in the 30 or 40 members they may need to balance the books.

Oilbeefhooked!

Russman wrote: »

I'm not having a go at you at all, or wishing you lose your money, or people lose their jobs, all I'm suggesting is that there will be clubs out there hoping that they get in the 30 or 40 members they may need to balance the books.

Point Taken,and i know you were making a general comment and not having a go - i just know i personally would not wish for any of the struggling clubs you talk of , to go under at the expense of peoples hard earned money and jobs, whether its demise were to save another course or not - but maybe thats just me.......

uberwolf

dwd wrote: »

I was at castleknock over the Christmas with a boards crowd and I have to say I found it an excellent setup. I would guess the problems must be with the hotel or the group that owns it. I doubt there is any chance of the course itself having any problems in the long run, It's location is far to good.

hotel is separate at this stage and seems to do well. There are houses on site which have been empty for years and might reflect some legscy celtic tiger debt in the group

Russman

Oilbeefhooked! wrote: »

Point Taken,and i know you were making a general comment and not having a go - i just know i personally would not wish for any of the struggling clubs you talk of , to go under at the expense of peoples hard earned money and jobs, whether its demise were to save another course or not - but maybe thats just me.......

You're spot on. I mean, in general terms, if a club with say, 500 members went under at the start of a season, I can't imagine how many of those would be in a position to pay a second sub to another club, and that's before even considering the "once bitten twice shy" factor. On a personal level, for staff and members its potentially a disaster (not just Castleknock, any club).

But lets not give it the last rites just yet. A decent layout in a good location should survive, but there's a lot of quality within a mile or two of that location, so I guess time will tell.

shane0007

What's the FBD association with Castleknock GC?
I really hope all works out for the club as I also played with the Boards outing & found it to be a lovely course.

GreeBo

Russman wrote: »

You're spot on. I mean, in general terms, if a club with say, 500 members went under at the start of a season, I can't imagine how many of those would be in a position to pay a second sub to another club, and that's before even considering the "once bitten twice shy" factor. On a personal level, for staff and members its potentially a disaster (not just Castleknock, any club).

Which is why lots of people are paying by DD these daysI guess!

Russman wrote: »

But lets not give it the last rites just yet. A decent layout in a good location should survive, but there's a lot of quality within a mile or two of that location, so I guess time will tell.

I think cost of running it is more important that location and quality these days...

Oilbeefhooked!

Russman wrote: »

You're spot on. I mean, in general terms, if a club with say, 500 members went under at the start of a season, I can't imagine how many of those would be in a position to pay a second sub to another club, and that's before even considering the "once bitten twice shy" factor. On a personal level, for staff and members its potentially a disaster (not just Castleknock, any club).

But lets not give it the last rites just yet. A decent layout in a good location should survive, but there's a lot of quality within a mile or two of that location, so I guess time will tell.

Sorry, if i seem negative about the clubs future as i really dont mean to be, i am in fact very optimistic about the future of the club and my sub, after hearing from the club and fellow members earlier this evening.
Just a bit shocked at this news coming out a fortnight after the AGM and a week after i paid my sub, and didnt like the hoping it goes under theory.
Maybe Greebos Direct Debit is indeed the way ill look to in future, i just hope all existing members do something similar and stick with this excellent club and renew there subs for 2014 , and it can continue to go from strength to strength onder a new owner

PARlance

Were you at the AGM Oil?
Or was there any talk of this situation over the last two weeks?
Incredibly bad form if not.

Oilbeefhooked!

PARlance wrote: »

Were you at the AGM Oil?
Or was there any talk of this situation over the last two weeks?
Incredibly bad form if not.

Couldnt attend myself , but no nothing regarding this situation was mentioned.

Russman

Oilbeefhooked! wrote: »

Sorry, if i seem negative about the clubs future as i really dont mean to be, i am in fact very optimistic about the future of the club and my sub, after hearing from the club and fellow members earlier this evening.
Just a bit shocked at this news coming out a fortnight after the AGM and a week after i paid my sub, and didnt like the hoping it goes under theory.
Maybe Greebos Direct Debit is indeed the way ill look to in future, i just hope all existing members do something similar and stick with this excellent club and renew there subs for 2014 , and it can continue to go from strength to strength onder a new owner

Direct debit is definitely a good option. Credit card might work too, not 100% sure if a golf club would take payment that way, I know we don't (but I don't know why !). I was a member of Total Fitness in 2011 when it went bust, but as I had paid the sub by credit card I got a refund from the credit card company.

Not to be negative, but the big fear IMO is that perception becomes reality, and snowballs - if you're a member who hasn't paid the sub yet its only natural that you might have second thoughts (realistically how many people will pay money to a company in receivership ?), and if you decide to move on, then the club may as well have gone bust from your point of view. Will suppliers start to insist on C.O.D. maybe ?

Communication will be key and keeping the members informed, also getting it resolved quickly. Maybe the golf side of things won't be impacted at all. If this is the first the committee knew of the impending receivership there's hope, if it turns out they knew and were still taking subs, all bets are off.

First Up

Really sorry to hear about this. Always enjoyed playing there and would have thought the location and high quality set up would see them alright. Best of luck to all involved.

dar_cool

Sad to see. This place will never go under though.Definitely the busiest club in the area. I would love to join myself as I'm only around the corner but couldnt afford the full membership and don't like the way they do the 5 day membership.

PARlance

Oilbeefhooked! wrote: »

Couldnt attend myself , but no nothing regarding this situation was mentioned.

Really hate seeing that carry on.
Hope it works out as best it possibly can.

dar_cool

shane0007 wrote: »

What's the FBD association with Castleknock GC?
I really hope all works out for the club as I also played with the Boards outing & found it to be a lovely course.

Fbd own the hotel beside the course.

Dossy

Doonbeg GC has also gone into receivership. Alot of property bought and rented out in the summer, obviously not the case anymore!!
Still though cant see GC going under as it has good solid number of members + corporate members

who_ru

5 day member in castleknock here - was thinking of going elsewhere anyway for a number of reasons but this news may tip the balance towards another club.

Cecco70

Just as I was about to join my first club. Castleknock is about 15 minutes away from me and would be ideal for me to get out for a few holes in the evening.
I was going for the 5 day membership deal.:(

Rigor Mortis

No FBD association. fbd only own the Hotel and that is completely separate and doing very well. The issue is a Monarch one.

Leprechaun77

There is a meeting of members currently underway in Castleknock golf club since 8 o'clock tonight. I couldn't make it myself, but if any other members on here attended you might post if anything of (further) significance was discussed.

Thanks

Oilbeefhooked!

Really positive meeting tonight ,massive turnout which was great to see. Receivers requiring to retain approx 80% membership as per emailed membership agreement for 2014, and going by show of hands and general word on the street ,looking like members are really going to get behind the club and this percentage will easily be achieved.
Guarantees were given by receivers on the retention of all green keeping staff and all existing maintenance methods to maintain current high quality standards of all aspects of the course for 2014 ,even if a new buyer is found in interim.
Also was confirmed by receivers, that anyone re-joining or any new members joining post 23rd January 2014, do so' RISK FREE' , as, if in the extremely unlikely event that the club were not to continue, ALL these members would be guaranteed a full refund of any balance on their cards at any such time.
So in summary, feeling very good about the future of this great club and looking forward to a summers/years golf at Cknock

FixdePitchmark

Just as an aside,

If a place like Castleknock can't stay in business , what hope has any club.
It is in an affluent area of Dublin, it is a good course, has a large population base. As large as anybody could wish for.
I guess the place it is in , is very expensive land. It was built in crazy times, is now separated from hotel by some financial trick.

If you were to look at Dublin as a whole, and look at the locations that new golf course were built in prime locations, the two you would pick are Castleknock and Portmarnock Links. Both have failed as stand alone business concepts.

14handicap

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Just as an aside,

If a place like Castleknock can't stay in business , what hope has any club.
It is in an affluent area of Dublin, it is a good course, has a large population base. As large as anybody could wish for.
I guess the place it is in , is very expensive land. It was built in crazy times, is now separated from hotel by some financial trick.

If you were to look at Dublin as a whole, and look at the locations that new golf course were built in prime locations, the two you would pick are Castleknock and Portmarnock Links. Both have failed as stand alone business concepts.

Is the problem not with all these courses that they built in the boom and spend 10-20-30million?
If they were stand alone businesses with no big loans than they would be quite profitable but the massive loans are killing them.

Golfgraffix

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Just as an aside,

if you were to look at Dublin as a whole, and look at the locations that new golf course were built in prime locations, the two you would pick are Castleknock and Portmarnock Links. Both have failed as stand alone business concepts.

I think if they were both stand alone buisness's they would have been fine, in fact quite succesful. The issue was that they were not stand alone businesses, they are part of bigger groups and it is the parent groups that failed.

J

Oilbeefhooked!

Golfgraffix wrote: »

I think if they were both stand alone buisness's they would have been fine, in fact quite succesful. The issue was that they were not stand alone businesses, they are part of bigger groups and it is the parent groups that failed.

J

Exactly right, Castleknock Golf club and restaurant is,was, and will continue to be a very profitable business.
The unfortunate problem was it was being used to prop up 8 other stuggling Monarch businesses.

who_ru

Oilbeefhooked! wrote: »

Exactly right, Castleknock Golf club and restaurant is,was, and will continue to be a very profitable business.
The unfortunate problem was it was being used to prop up 8 other stuggling Monarch businesses.

Didn't the course itself make successive losses over the last 3 or 4 years at least?

FixdePitchmark

who_ru wrote: »

Didn't the course itself make successive losses over the last 3 or 4 years at least?

Also ?
Is Castleknock golf course paying back the development cost of the course ?

Oilbeefhooked!

who_ru wrote: »

Didn't the course itself make successive losses over the last 3 or 4 years at least?[/QUOTE

As previously said, profits from the GolfClub/Restaurant were being used to prop up 8 other companies - not going to comment on exact details on here , but it will be evident when it now begins to trade and prosper as its own entity that it is for sure a profitable business.

Russman

Oilbeefhooked! wrote: »

who_ru wrote: »

Didn't the course itself make successive losses over the last 3 or 4 years at least?[/QUOTE

As previously said, profits from the GolfClub/Restaurant were being used to prop up 8 other companies - not going to comment on exact details on here , but it will be evident when it now begins to trade and prosper as its own entity that it is for sure a profitable business.

While wishing them all the best and hoping they turn the corner for the members' sakes, I'd have reservations about that (certainly if the course standards and playing time for members are to be maintained).

Golfgraffix

I think they are close to 40,000 rounds a year which makes them one of the bussiest courses in the country. I would have very little doubt that it would be profitable.

J

Russman

Golfgraffix wrote: »

I think they are close to 40,000 rounds a year which makes them one of the bussiest courses in the country. I would have very little doubt that it would be profitable.

J

Yes, but how many of those rounds are paying rounds ? Asking as I don't know.

I think it was mentioned that there are 27 staff in the golf club, that must equate to somewhere in the region of c€750k in payroll costs alone.

I don't know what membership costs, but at, say, €1,500 you'd need 500 members just to pay the wages. Maintenance of the course to its usual high standard would surely come in at a couple of hundred thousand at least.

I'm not privy to the actual numbers, but I'm struggling to see how it can be profitable in its current guise. If the shortfall is made up from societies and green fees, how does that impact on members' times and would there need to be a reduction in slots ?

As I say, I've no real knowledge of the workings of the club or even how many members there are, but at face value/curiosity value its not stacking up for me.

who_ru

Russman wrote: »

Yes, but how many of those rounds are paying rounds ? Asking as I don't know.

I think it was mentioned that there are 27 staff in the golf club, that must equate to somewhere in the region of c€750k in payroll costs alone.

I don't know what membership costs, but at, say, €1,500 you'd need 500 members just to pay the wages. Maintenance of the course to its usual high standard would surely come in at a couple of hundred thousand at least.

I'm not privy to the actual numbers, but I'm struggling to see how it can be profitable in its current guise. If the shortfall is made up from societies and green fees, how does that impact on members' times and would there need to be a reduction in slots ?

As I say, I've no real knowledge of the workings of the club or even how many members there are, but at face value/curiosity value its not stacking up for me.

they tend to pour societies through the place, the tee is often blocked booked for a couple of hours. Needs must i suppose on that score.

it would seem that the place will be maintained to it's current standard for 2014 but after that who knows.

in terms of members it was said at the meeting if i remember correctly they have 459 5 day members paying 600 euro each - 459x600=275400

i think 66 unlimited members paying 1750 a year (66x1750=115500) and approx 170 '7 day' members paying 1450 a year (170x1450=246500).

income from members then 275400 + 115500 + 246500 = 637400.

Add in societies, green fees, bar & restaurant, pro shop, income could be 700,000 - 750,000 give or take.

but we don't know what the costs are both staff and course maintenance. I know that the general manager has been let go, maybe other staff will too over time. But unless income increases quickly, costs will have to come down.

Luttrellstown and the Hermitage are within a stones throw of the place, both quality courses also competing for societies and members. But Castleknock has been proactive with their 5 day offer.

Tee times could be scarce this year if they become even more pro active in attracting societies, more members but that's what it is going to take.

who_ru

Castleknock require 80% of members whose fees are due in first 6 months of the year to renew their membership before Feb 28th to avoid closure. Last update I got less than half have done so.

1 week to go and not looking good. People do not like handing over money to receivers with a long line of creditors behind them, regardless of assurances.

I am a 5 day member there and won't be overjoyed at having to find a new club, but it would seem that not enough people are prepared to renew their membership.

Oilbeefhooked!

who_ru wrote: »

Castleknock require 80% of members whose fees are due in first 6 months of the year to renew their membership before Feb 28th to avoid closure. Last update I got less than half have done so.

1 week to go and not looking good. People do not like handing over money to receivers with a long line of creditors behind them, regardless of assurances.

I am a 5 day member there and won't be overjoyed at having to find a new club, but it would seem that not enough people are prepared to renew their membership.

I wouldn't panic just yet, a lot of people were waiting to hear re. Access Agreement and green staff assurances.
I understand the memberships are now being renewed at a good steady rate , so hopefully those numbers will be well up by Friday .
Can't see why anyone wouldn't rejoin personally ? Superb course guaranteed to be kept to same very high standard for 2014, only 550 euro for 5 day for rest of 2014 and the guaranteed assurance that if things were to go wrong , full refund of card balances guaranteed before end of March!
Any existing members who would like to see their club continue, have a risk free no brainer decision to make IMO.

First Up

Oilbeefhooked! wrote: »

I wouldn't panic just yet, a lot of people were waiting to hear re. Access Agreement and green staff assurances.
I understand the memberships are now being renewed at a good steady rate , so hopefully those numbers will be well up by Friday .
Can't see why anyone wouldn't rejoin personally ? Superb course guaranteed to be kept to same very high standard for 2014, only 550 euro for 5 day for rest of 2014 and the guaranteed assurance that if things were to go wrong , full refund of card balances guaranteed before end of March!
Any existing members who would like to see their club continue, have a risk free no brainer decision to make IMO.

Really hope it works out. It would be a shame to lose it. I'm not in the market for membership but I play it 4-5 times a year and always enjoy it. Sounds one of the better membership deals on offer.

who_ru

Oilbeefhooked! wrote: »

I wouldn't panic just yet, a lot of people were waiting to hear re. Access Agreement and green staff assurances.
I understand the memberships are now being renewed at a good steady rate , so hopefully those numbers will be well up by Friday .
Can't see why anyone wouldn't rejoin personally ? Superb course guaranteed to be kept to same very high standard for 2014, only 550 euro for 5 day for rest of 2014 and the guaranteed assurance that if things were to go wrong , full refund of card balances guaranteed before end of March!
Any existing members who would like to see their club continue, have a risk free no brainer decision to make IMO.

i thought they'd have close to the target already as the access agreement etc was sorted over a week ago - i'll ring on weds or thurs next week and ask again.

Russman

Oilbeefhooked! wrote: »

I wouldn't panic just yet, a lot of people were waiting to hear re. Access Agreement and green staff assurances.
I understand the memberships are now being renewed at a good steady rate , so hopefully those numbers will be well up by Friday .
Can't see why anyone wouldn't rejoin personally ? Superb course guaranteed to be kept to same very high standard for 2014, only 550 euro for 5 day for rest of 2014 and the guaranteed assurance that if things were to go wrong , full refund of card balances guaranteed before end of March!
Any existing members who would like to see their club continue, have a risk free no brainer decision to make IMO.

What does this mean ? (genuine question)

Could there be a fear that if things did go wrong, any refunds etc might not be forthcoming in reality ?

Oilbeefhooked!

Russman wrote: »

What does this mean ? (genuine question)

Could there be a fear that if things did go wrong, any refunds etc might not be forthcoming in reality ?

It simply means that the receivers gave a no risk guarantee to any existing/ new members paying a joining fee post 23rd January.
By assuring full card balances to these members would be refunded in full ,in the event of the club closing.
This is obviously to try and keep the existing membership base and attract new members .
It was brought up at the EGM , when, if the worst happened. Would such a refund would be honoured ? therefore the receivers have since given a refund guarantee date of 31 st of march to allay any fears of a long drawn affair. Simples

Russman

Thanks, I just didn't understand what card balances meant. Still don't, but hey. Assume it's membership subs you've paid ?

Oilbeefhooked!

Russman wrote: »

Thanks, I just didn't understand what card balances meant. Still don't, but hey. Assume it's membership subs you've paid ?

Just means some of the memberships work on a credit system whereas every time you play your card balance reduces therefore
Card balances at such time would be honoured in full and not the full membership amount paid , which is fair enough I'd say.

Cecco70

I just joined a week ago and I was told I would get a full refund in case of the club closing down. I was over there on Wednesday to see if my application had been processed and to pick up my membership card and was told it wasn't yet because of a backlog. So hopefully that means they have a good few new applications in, unless the backlog they are referring to is the two week free trial period applications.

pcasso

Cecco70 wrote: »

I just joined a week ago and I was told I would get a full refund in case of the club closing down. I was over there on Wednesday to see if my application had been processed and to pick up my membership card and was told it wasn't yet because of a backlog. So hopefully that means they have a good few new applications in, unless the backlog they are referring to is the two week free trial period applications.

I joined during last week as well and was told the exact same thing regarding a full refund of any credit left in my account.
It was €500 to join for the remaining ten months of 2014 with €20 extra for my GUI membership

First Up

Well done you folk for backing the club. Great to see members rallying round - so many clubs have to put up with people more intent on squeezing every last cent out of "their" club than putting anything back in.

Cecco70

pcasso wrote: »

I joined during last week as well and was told the exact same thing regarding a full refund of any credit left in my account.
It was €500 to join for the remaining ten months of 2014 with €20 extra for my GUI membership

I paid the full €600 plus €20 GUI, and €20 Insurance. I didn't mind since its a credit system so I'll use it up one way or another:)

Btw, did you get your membership card yet?