SIRO - ESB/Vodafone Fibre To The Home

SpaceTime

Putting WISPs on the edges of Eircom or ESB fibre would make a LOT of sense.

I'm of the opinion that WISPs should be given maybe a tax break or incentive to cover 'off grid' homes.

They provide pretty decent services with very little resources. With a small scale investment and fibre backhaul they could really fill in a lot of the blanks for customers that will never see direct fibre.

The problem is Eircom historically saw them as direct competition as they also take call revenues, despite the fact that in many rural areas ADSL doesn't work very well at all. The ESB most likely won't see them as competition as they won't be providing deep rural FTTH.

I'd like to see the WISPs getting something like a tax break, access to backhaul over the FTTH infrastructure and help to become viable resellers of ESB FTTH too.

If we're serious about getting fast broadband to everyone good quality wireless will have a major part to play in areas that can't be economically connected to FTTH.

AFAIK Eircom themselves have or at least had WISP licences that they're never used.

fergus1001

SpaceTime wrote: »

Putting WISPs on the edges of Eircom or ESB fibre would make a LOT of sense.

I'm of the opinion that WISPs should be given maybe a tax break or incentive to cover 'off grid' homes.

They provide pretty decent services with very little resources. With a small scale investment and fibre backhaul they could really fill in a lot of the blanks for customers that will never see direct fibre.

The problem is Eircom historically saw them as direct competition as they also take call revenues, despite the fact that in many rural areas ADSL doesn't work very well at all. The ESB most likely won't see them as competition as they won't be providing deep rural FTTH.

I'd like to see the WISPs getting something like a tax break, access to backhaul over the FTTH infrastructure and help to become viable resellers of ESB FTTH too.

If we're serious about getting fast broadband to everyone good quality wireless will have a major part to play in areas that can't be economically connected to FTTH.

AFAIK Eircom themselves have or at least had WISP licences that they're never used.

most have un usable usage caps and are not worth a damn

SpaceTime

fergus1001 wrote: »

most have un usable usage caps and are not worth a damn

That's because they've no backhaul or inadequate spectrum though. It's not out of meanness. There are several with very reasonable or unlimited caps too..

A lot of these organisations are tiny, very community centric and running on pretty overstretched and aging equipment at thus stage.

They've very much got a role, but they need to be helped out a bit with proper onward connectivity.

fergus1001

SpaceTime wrote: »

That's because they've no backhaul or inadequate spectrum though. It's not out of meanness. There are several with very reasonable or unlimited caps too..

A lot of these organisations are tiny, very community centric and running on pretty overstretched and aging equipment at thus stage.

They've very much got a role, but they need to be helped out a bit with proper onward connectivity.

a program on the scale of rural electrification with fiber is what we need

dbit

for now to fill the gap and for the purpose of future delivery of service to rural areas ESB Voda would stand to gain more than loose from this . Eircom i cannot see them being overly helpful as per they're duct access history and denial of same only selling llu packages from exchanges . The strangle hold is loosening at last.

SpaceTime

fergus1001 wrote: »

a program on the scale of rural electrification with fiber is what we need

As nice as that would be, it won't happen. Also bear in mind rural electrification took decades to complete.

Wireless services can deliver very high speeds, if they're setup right!

hallo dare

SpaceTime wrote: »

Also bear in mind rural electrification took decades to complete.

It would take a considerable less amout of time these days.

The Infrastructure is already in place, plus equipment and vehicles are of a far higher standard for installation of cables these days.

But I'll agree with you that a Countrywide installation on the scale of the electrification installation won't take place.

Eircom should never have gotten sold.

Nollog

dbit wrote: »

Nova networks have been doing synchronous connections in cork for almost 20 years. Agreed not fair to squeeze wireless providers out of the market . When they were and probably are still the only service in extreme rural areas.

I can only imagine that vodafone esb would see them as a viable earner and not try to expunge - most of the wireless tower sites or transceiver locations do have esb lines running past them so ? would that not lift the question of doubt for them ??

ESB Telecoms have been supplying bandwidth to some wireless providers for years, digiweb is an example.
They work as a backhaul and background network wholesaler, and have been for a good while.
A lot of LTE towers are supplied by ESB bandwidth.

http://www.esbtelecoms.ie/news/current/schools-high-speed-broadband.htm
Even schools are powered by esbt

SpaceTime

/\/ollog wrote: »

ESB Telecoms have been supplying bandwidth to some wireless providers for years, digiweb is an example.
They work as a backhaul and background network wholesaler, and have been for a good while.
A lot of LTE towers are supplied by ESB bandwidth.

http://www.esbtelecoms.ie/news/current/schools-high-speed-broadband.htm
Even schools are powered by esbt

True but putting wireless providers on the edges of FTTH would give much, much deeper levels of coverage. ESB's current fibre network is pretty sparce and follows the lines of the national grid. Its fine for connecting a big node. it's not much use if you're trying to connect a wireless node in rural Co. Donegal.

You'd have FTTH in a village and blazingly fast wireless in its hinterland. That's a huge improvement on the existing setup.

Nollog

SpaceTime wrote: »

True but putting wireless providers on the edges of FTTH would give much, much deeper levels of coverage. ESB's current fibre network is pretty sparce and follows the lines of the national grid. Its fine for connecting a big node. it's not much use if you're trying to connect a wireless node in rural Co. Donegal.

You'd have FTTH in a village and blazingly fast wireless in its hinterland. That's a huge improvement on the existing setup.

If they're offering the service now, i'd imagine they'd be more likely to run a few more to areas just outside the ftth area to a wisp company what wants the extra bandwidth.
a few years ago in clonmel one of the wisps had a mast near the town that served miles outside the range of any decent cabled service, however they got the internet up the mountain, situation would be similar i'd imagine.

ED E

This is a little OT, but not worth its own thread.

What capacity can FWA support assuming effectively infinite backhaul? With the likes of LTE you have a small number of bands for each network that are shared between all users in that cell, but cells are small, or tend to be. FWA has less masts that cover larger areas, and going with the ESB+FWA combo it'd likely be a single tower in the middle of a town or on a hill nearby it. What can you expect from such a setup?

SpaceTime

It very much depends on the network, the capacity between linked transmission sites, the amount of available radio spectrum allocated, the frequencies used, the specific over-the-air technology used (and how it's configured and what version), the topology, the number of users etc etc

Tons of variables which is why some services are top notch and others aren't.

ED E

Oh I get that, but what would the better examples be using? 5Ghz 100Mbs / x users.

I have an idea of what P2P links can handle, but not up at all on FWA. Must really have a read on it.

bk

One thing people should remember, Eircom made a very detailed submission to the National Broadband Plan.

They said in no uncertain terms, that if you wanted to guarantee a minimum of 30mb/s to every home, it would cost more to do it with FWA/4G/VDSL then it would to rollout FTTH

It might seem counterintuitive, but they point out that the number of wireless towers required for those speeds would be a massive cost. Also VDSl at that speed would require too many expensive active nodes, which are also very expensive to maintain.

Johnboy1951

If rural dwellings can have phone lines and electricity connections why even think about anything other than a fibre connection?

Any other option is just a waste of money and time and a stop-gap at best ...... IF it worked for everybody!

So what if it takes 5 years to complete?
The main infrastructure is already there, all is needed is the will and the funding.

Any mention of FWA at this time should be dismissed ..... instead find the means of getting fibre out there .... even if it does take some years to complete.

murphaph

fergus1001 wrote: »

a program on the scale of rural electrification with fiber is what we need

That took 40 years to complete and there were far fewer one off properties to connect. Be careful what you wish for!

Johnboy1951

murphaph wrote: »

That took 40 years to complete and there were far fewer one off properties to connect. Be careful what you wish for!

I fail to see how that is even relevant.

The infrastructure is now in place so the 'large works' are not needed.

Machinery is now available to do the work of many in much less time.

fergus1001

murphaph wrote: »

That took 40 years to complete and there were far fewer one off properties to connect. Be careful what you wish for!

40 year down the road when ireland is a ****hole for doing buisness because we dont have the bandwidth to keep up with the rest of the world and we are all complaining about what we should have done years ago thats an ireland i dont want to be a part of

murphaph

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

I fail to see how that is even relevant.

The infrastructure is now in place so the 'large works' are not needed.

Machinery is now available to do the work of many in much less time.

You are seriously underestimating the physical effort that it's going to take to make use of the existing infrastructure to carry fibre. It won't attach itself or blow itself through the ducts. It's an even bigger project than Eircom's VDSL rollout, even though the number of premises that will be connected will be around a third, and that VDSL rollout arguably started in 2012. Eircom's core fibre network is much larger than the ESB's. The "easy" bit is running fibre over the high and medium voltage networks...the low voltage network is much "messier".

If it was a doddle to do it, don't you think the ESB would start in rural Ireland and hoover up all those easy to win customers?

SpaceTime

The ESB has an advantage in having the staff on board full time who can actually do this kind of infrastructural roll out.

If there's one thing they are really good at it's wiring!

hallo dare

SpaceTime wrote: »

The ESB has an advantage in having the staff on board full time who can actually do this kind of infrastructural roll out.

If there's one thing they are really good at it's wiring!

It'll all be contracted out. Not as many ESB staff employed these days.

Johnboy1951

murphaph wrote: »

You are seriously underestimating the physical effort that it's going to take to make use of the existing infrastructure to carry fibre. It won't attach itself or blow itself through the ducts. It's an even bigger project than Eircom's VDSL rollout, even though the number of premises that will be connected will be around a third, and that VDSL rollout arguably started in 2012. Eircom's core fibre network is much larger than the ESB's. The "easy" bit is running fibre over the high and medium voltage networks...the low voltage network is much "messier".

If it was a doddle to do it, don't you think the ESB would start in rural Ireland and hoover up all those easy to win customers?

So you have gone from comparing it to a 40 year rural electrification project to a 'doddle' ....... you do like extremes!

.... and to answer your question - no, obviously not.

murphaph

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

So you have gone from comparing it to a 40 year rural electrification project to a 'doddle'.

Did you read the post or just one word of it?

dbit

Jaysus the bitchy trolls in here are ,........ Wheres my troll gone -- "AWESOME"


I don't see ESB paying KN as they do have staff to do the pulling blowing and so on .

Update Just saw ESB running fiber along poles in Ballincollig Cork yesterday , They are just at the start of the town from the cork city side.

mass_debater

dbit wrote: »

I don't see ESB paying KN as they do have staff to do the pulling blowing and so on .

KN did the ESB trails

dbit

mass_debater wrote: »

KN did the ESB trails

Stands corrected.

dbit

I did see ESB doing it themselves yesterday in Ballincollig Cork.

bk

I expect it will involve both ESB and KN staff working together.

ESB staff have the expertise in dealing with the electric network and working near it.

KN staff have the expertise in working with fiber, splicing it, doing installs etc.

dbit

Yes i would envisage that KN will do the non electrical risk parts and ESB to do the trunk to towns over power line poles. Quazzi hybrid installation Teams . KN Engineers Don't fancy dangling around power lines that much im guessing. KN are gonig to be a very busy operation for the foreseeable future.

dbit

On the other side of this I wonder how modems will register in this Fiber solution , IE possible to run your own fibre and grab a 1k splice kit and "Tap" in lolz. Obviously there will be some form of mac registration setup (Should be a hell off a lot more than just that i realize this). Just thinking aloud as to how open this system will be to abuse.

Villain

dbit wrote: »

On the other side of this I wonder how modems will register in this Fiber solution , IE possible to run your own fibre and grab a 1k splice kit and "Tap" in lolz. Obviously there will be some form of mac registration setup (Should be a hell off a lot more than just that i realize this). Just thinking aloud as to how open this system will be to abuse.

Could still use pppoe

ED E

The ONT is ISP provided. This will allow them to identify your access on the shared medium as it pairs and encrypts with the OLT. Whatever router you put in after that won't matter.

Nollog

dbit wrote: »

I did see ESB doing it themselves yesterday in Ballincollig Cork.

so excite.

I saw esb with eqtel down by the quay, not doing anything, just there and later on in the week saw an unmarked van running a small-looking wire from a massive spool in under the ground.

Probably unrelated to fibre.

dbit

/\/ollog wrote: »

so excite.

I saw esb with eqtel down by the quay, not doing anything, just there and later on in the week saw an unmarked van running a small-looking wire from a massive spool in under the ground.

Probably unrelated to fibre.

Are you not in clonmel ?? i didnt know you guys had a quay ? Or are you in Cork referring to popes quay area ?

Johnboy1951

dbit wrote: »

Are you not in clonmel ?? i didnt know you guys had a quay ? Or are you in Cork referring to popes quay area ?

Clonmel is on the river Suir, and is navigable .... and indeed has a quay

dbit

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Clonmel is on the river Suir, and is navigable .... and indeed has a quay

Either way Clonmel was the first place i saw the rollout , needless to say I HATE YOU.

Commute to cork would become laborious after the novelty would wear off for me..

Nollog

dbit wrote: »

Are you not in clonmel ?? i didnt know you guys had a quay ? Or are you in Cork referring to popes quay area ?

Clonmel does have a Quay yeah, but I'm in Cobh now working in Cork City, maybe I should update my profile.

dbit

/\/ollog wrote: »

Clonmel does have a Quay yeah, but I'm in Cobh now working in Cork City, maybe I should update my profile.

Still hate you as COB - H is on phase one ya so and so.

Nollog

dbit wrote: »

Still hate you as COB - H is on phase one ya so and so.

hopefully they do better than eircom, my exchange isn't efibred yet

GottaGetGatt

So when are they hoping to get 1gb into homes?Is Limerick first?

murphaph

From January they hope to start connecting first paying customers. Limerick City is in Phase I but I don't think it's going to be the first place to go live. Clonmel has been mentioned I think.

yuloni

This post has been deleted.

murphaph

yuloni wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Yes they have done trials there but not paying customers AFAIK.

Nollog

murphaph wrote: »

From January they hope to start connecting first paying customers. Limerick City is in Phase I but I don't think it's going to be the first place to go live. Clonmel has been mentioned I think.

January is earlier than I expected.
Thought they'd drag their arse, like every other network provider.

murphaph

/\/ollog wrote: »

January is earlier than I expected.
Thought they'd drag their arse, like every other network provider.

Huh? Eircom's VDSL rollout has been at a blistering pace. They'll have 1.6 million of the 2.3 million premises in Ireland reached by next summer.

Nollog

murphaph wrote: »

Huh? Eircom's VDSL rollout has been at a blistering pace. They'll have 1.6 million of the 2.3 million premises in Ireland reached by next summer.

and they started slow as i recall.

Hackery

SpaceTime wrote: »

If eircom were to take a legal action against ESB demanding direct access to ESB ducts and wires, they could be opening a can of worms that might do themselves quite a lot of damage too.

If (highly unlikely) eircom were to win a case against ESB, then UPC, Vodafone and others would equally be able to take a similar case against eircom for direct physical access to its ductwork and overhead wiring networks, exchange buildings, cabinets etc.

A precedent would be established that would be very hard for them to argue against.

eircom are opening up their ducts. Found this on the eircom Wholesale website

It the proposed Duct Acess Product Description (sorry can't post links but you should be able to follow

eircomwholesale.ie/WorkArea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=2061

Hackery

/\/ollog wrote: »

and they started slow as i recall.

They only started 18 months ago and over 1 million homes have been passed so far

tv221

Living in a new estate adjacent excellent upc and efibre systems. I can't get upc as they've no interest in crossing 10 meters of grass to service 25 houses and all future expansion in the town. I can get a fibre connection of 11/1 while the house in older estate 20 meters away has 100/20 service.


I assume this is the type of situation that esb/vod claim they'll be looking to service initially. As with so many streets eircom and upc have little interest in.

I take a lot of interest in others comments about upc/eircom and I can't help but think that esb could destroy eircom particularly as the dislike for them is so prevalent in Ireland. As for upc and their terrible tv boxes and that horizon thing.

In fact I will admit. I pretty much begged Vodafone to get here quick.

red_bairn

Hackery wrote:

They only started 18 months ago and over 1 million homes have been passed so far

I wonder how true those stats are...are they pretending they can reach all the homes in our housing estate that have a direct feed.

ESB-Vodafone will hopefully be our freedom from this tripe.