SIRO - ESB/Vodafone Fibre To The Home

SpaceTime

bk wrote: »

Great diagram above.

However it should be noted that the C in FTTC above stands for "Curb" rather then "Cabinet" as we often use it here in Ireland to describe Eircoms new VDSL network.

Curb is a more Anerican thing, we might call it street.

So Eircoms FTTC/VDSL network is really a FTTN network in the above diagram.

UPCs Hybric Fibre Coax (HFC) network would be Fibre To The Curb (FTTC) in the above diagram.

In my case, UPC network is FTTB as their cab is on the side of the apartment building and only serves my building as far as I know. But it doesn't mean I benefit any more then any other UPC customer.

I expect the ESBs new network will be mixed FTTH/FTTB with FTTB for apartments.

FTTC and FTTN are fairly interchangeable. Also some definitions call or Fibre To The Cabinet rather than curb.

Fibre to the Vault (Manhole) and Fibre to the pole is where we need to be moving.

Lord Arsraptor

Is this ESB fibre rollout going to be available in urban Dublin? maybe before 2016? What would be the likelihood, gents?

Nolars

Lord Arsraptor wrote: »

Is this ESB fibre rollout going to be available in urban Dublin? maybe before 2016? What would be the likelihood, gents?

They arent rolling out in UPC areas

Lord Arsraptor

Nolars wrote: »

They arent rolling out in UPC areas

I read that there would be the capability for UPC/Eircom to make use of ESB's infrastructure, when they make it available, to provide FTTH for their customers too? Or am I delusional

jca

garroff wrote: »

https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/uploads/attachments/404622/317624.pdf


Extract from ESB inhouse magazine re fibre roll out.

It looks good except for the glaring spelling mistake in the second PDF :pac:

Johnboy1951

jca wrote: »

It looks good except for the glaring spelling mistake in the second PDF :pac:

When the news is good, who cares? :):D

bk

SpaceTime wrote: »

Fibre to the Vault (Manhole) and Fibre to the pole is where we need to be moving.

Yup,called Fibre To The Distribution Point (FTTDp). Combined with G.Fast it should be able to deliver speeds of up to 1Gb/s. However it isn't expected to be much cheaper then FTTH, from 0% to 20% cheaper then FTTH.

So really it will likely be part of a FTTH rollout where they optionally use FTTDp/G.Fast for particularly difficult installs

Lord Arsraptor wrote: »

I read that there would be the capability for UPC/Eircom to make use of ESB's infrastructure, when they make it available, to provide FTTH for their customers too? Or am I delusional

It would make a lot of sense for UPC to make use of it. As it won't overlap with the UPC network at all, it would mean UPC could sell their products to 500,000 new homes, without needing to build out their own network.

In the case of Eircom, it is a more complicated question. Should they use the ESB network or build out their own competing FTTH network. I think they will likely to the latter, but I'm not certain.

Sky will almost certainly use it, no reason for them not to. What difference would it make for them to pay ESB to use their network, rather then pay Eircom to use there's. It would allow Sky to sell it's TV services as IPTV and VoD over the network.

I'd say Magnet and Digiweb would jump on it too.

7upfree

Nolars wrote: »

They arent rolling out in UPC areas

I thought they were?

bk

7upfree wrote: »

I thought they were?

Nope, they have specifically said that they won't target UPC areas.

In fact this might come down to street level, targeting one street that has no UPC while skipping the next street that has UPC.

Of course there will be the odd lucky exception who might get both, but that wont be normal.

boardzz

Galway City. Has UPC and is getting ESB/Vodafone.

bealtine

just to clarify the UPC/ESB thing...

Dublin areas with UPC will not be a target and in some major towns areas of those towns with UPC will probably not be targets.

Pretty much as bk has said in major towns it'll almost be to the street level

MajesticDonkey

boardzz wrote: »

Galway City. Has UPC and is getting ESB/Vodafone.

Obviously every street doesn't.

AlmightyCushion

Sligo is on the list and has pretty wide spread UPC coverage on the town. I've only heard of individual houses or small clusters of houses that couldn't get UPC usually because someone didn't want cabling passing by their house.

cunnijo

MajesticDonkey wrote: »

Obviously every street doesn't.

I totally agree. Not every street/road has it. Also competition to UPC would be no harm.

I live in one of the 50 towns listed in the first phase of the program. I sincerely hope that the ESB FTTH option will be available to me, as UPC are not interested in rolling out their services where I live. I will happily sign up for it (ESB) if it does.

Also some of the fixed wireless providers use the ESB telecom towers to transmit their services, a case in point being the Metro service from Digiweb. Will services like these benefit from this project, as in the ability to offer much higher speeds and more services than at present?

bk

cunnijo wrote: »

Also some of the fixed wireless providers use the ESB telecom towers to transmit their services, a case in point being the Metro service from Digiweb. Will services like these benefit from this project, as in the ability to offer much higher speeds and more services than at present?

We have no information on this yet, but I very much expect so.

The ESB have said that their network will be an open one and that other ISPs will be able to make use of it. I assume they include Fixed Wireless carriers in that. After all they already have a good relationship with these companies as you say.

And a 50mb/s FWA service isn't going to directly compete with a 1gb/s FTTH service, so really it will just be helping out the people outside the range of the FTTH deployment, so I don't see any reason why they wouldn't

We are going slightly of topic again, but this is why I've been saying this project while being limited to urban areas, it is indirectly also fantastic news for rural (low population density) Ireland.

cunnijo

bk wrote: »

We have no information on this yet, but I very much expect so.

The ESB have said that their network will be an open one and that other ISPs will be able to make use of it. I assume they include Fixed Wireless carriers in that. After all they already have a good relationship with these companies as you say.

And a 50mb/s FWA service isn't going to directly compete with a 1gb/s FTTH service, so really it will just be helping out the people outside the range of the FTTH deployment, so I don't see any reason why they wouldn't

We are going slightly of topic again, but this is why I've been saying this project while being limited to urban areas, it is indirectly also fantastic news for rural (low population density) Ireland.

Hi Bk

50Mbps for rural areas using fixed wireless will be a massive boost. However Digiweb had details on their website regarding tests of 100Mbps using their "Metro" service and maybe even higher with the right technology/infrastructure for the areas they cover. With the ESB venture now in place and with fibre upgrades to each of the ESB telecom towers there will hopefully be no stopping them.

As for up to 1Gbps FTTH I sincerely hope that the option will be there in areas served by UPC, as not all urban areas (including parts of Dublin City) can avail of their high speed fibre broadband/telephone service. As I mentioned in an earlier posting UPC are also not interested in supplying their fibre service to where I live in Naas town. They only seem to be interested in housing estates and not main roads (cost too much?). So this rollout will be a gift, as I'm sure many people would prefer not to have to go down the Eircom efibre route. So the sooner it arrives the better.

bk

cunnijo wrote: »

As for up to 1Gbps FTTH I sincerely hope that the option will be there in areas served by UPC, as not all urban areas (including parts of Dublin City) can avail of their high speed fibre broadband/telephone service. As I mentioned in an earlier posting UPC are also not interested in supplying their fibre service to where I live in Naas town. They only seem to be interested in housing estates and not main roads (cost too much?). So this rollout will be a gift, as I'm sure many people would prefer not to have to go down the Eircom efibre route. So the sooner it arrives the better.

It could happen, but I doubt. More likely that UPC will finally get around to upgrading these areas if cable is already in place.

They have a definite upgrade programme that is working it's way through the country. They have already upgraded most of the network, but of course there are still a small minority of areas that have yet to be upgraded.

I expect UPC will deliver their own 1gb/s service using DOCSIS 3.1 over cable, which is why the ESB don't want to go head to head with them, too tough competition.

cunnijo

bk wrote: »

It could happen, but I doubt. More likely that UPC will finally get around to upgrading these areas if cable is already in place.

They have a definite upgrade programme that is working it's way through the country. They have already upgraded most of the network, but of course there are still a small minority of areas that have yet to be upgraded.

I expect UPC will deliver their own 1gb/s service using DOCSIS 3.1 over cable, which is why the ESB don't want to go head to head with them, too tough competition.

Hi BK

I take your point regards UPC. That's seems to be the reason the ESB will not enter areas like Dublin City or any of the cities However where I live is one of the 50 urban areas listed for phase 1 of the ESB project (Naas). As for UPC their service will never be available for me or those apposite and around me. The company are not willing to roll out cable where we are, just to the estates. I know as I they have said so when approached.

So if the ESB cannot accommodate us then there will only be VDSL (Eircom, etc) or fixed wireless in the form of Digiweb Metro.

So I really do hope the ESB will serve us.

bk

cunnijo wrote: »

Hi BK

I take your point regards UPC. That's seems to be the reason the ESB will not enter areas like Dublin City or any of the cities However where I live is one of the 50 urban areas listed for phase 1 of the ESB project (Naas). As for UPC their service will never be available for me or those apposite and around me. The company are not willing to roll out cable where we are, just to the estates. I know as I they have said so when approached.

Oh sorry I misunderstood you.

When the ESB say they won't compete with UPC, they mean down to street level.

So if your street doesn't have UPC then it may well get ESB FTTH.

In other words, Naas may have some estates and streets that do have UPC and others that don't. The ones who don't have UPC will probably get ESB FTTH while the ones that have UPC already won't.

boardzz

bk wrote: »

Oh sorry I misunderstood you.

When the ESB say they won't compete with UPC, they mean down to street level.

So if your street doesn't have UPC then it may well get ESB FTTH.

In other words, Naas may have some estates and streets that do have UPC and others that don't. The ones who don't have UPC will probably get ESB FTTH while the ones that have UPC already won't.

That is absolute nonsense. Vodafone are a business who is well able to compete. They will have a far superior product to UPC and will make sure as many people as possible can buy it from them.

bk

boardzz wrote: »

That is absolute nonsense. Vodafone are a business who is well able to compete. They will have a far superior product to UPC and will make sure as many people as possible can buy it from them.

No, I'm afraid you are the one talking nonsense!

The ESB/Vodafone JV have themselves specifically said that they will be targeting non UPC urban areas. That is a fact!

Now that isn't there say there won't be the odd exception where there is overlap, but for the most part they won't be competing with UPC.

And it makes perfect logical business sense. Wouldn't you prefer to compete against just one company Eircom, instead of competing against two companies, both Eircom and UPC?

Eircom is a much weaker and easier competitor. Eircom can offer only a max of 100mb/s and can't go significantly faster without heavily investing in FTTH themselves. The ESB can offer 10 times faster, 1Gb/s broadband to compete with them. Also Eircom doesn't have a significant presence or brand in TV services.

UPC on the other hand are the largest cable company in the world! Their network already offers 200mb/s to consumers and 500mb/s to business users. Once they upgrade to DOCSIS 3.1, they will be able to offer 1Gb/s service too, exactly the same as the ESB FTTH, so no easy marketing win for the ESB there.

UPC also have a strong presence and brand in the TV market.

Finally UPCs HFC network is much more Fibre deep then Eircom's, if threatened enough it would be relatively straight forward for UPC to start rolling out FTTH themselves.

Trust me, it makes much better business sense for the ESB not to try and compete with UPC. Instead it is better for them to focus on becoming the UPC of non UPC areas.

What I mean by that, is that UPC have managed to gain 40 to 50% market share from Eircom in the areas they operate in by offering much faster broadband then Eircom. I believe the ESB have a similar business plan, to gain 40 to 50% of Eircoms market in the rest of the non UPC urban areas by offering much faster broadband then Eircom.

Better for them to avoid competing directly with UPC, focus instead on Eircom and perhaps even partner with UPC to carry UPC's services on their network, allowing UPC to expand into areas they don't currently serve.

In the long term, I expect UPC to upgrade their network to FTTH and thus Eircom will in time follow. It doesn't make sense for the ESB to try and be a third FTTH network, that would be overkill.

BTW there are many different types of FTTH technologies. The type that the ESB are planning to use, GPON isn't significantly better then cable.

GPON has 2.488 gigabits per second (Gbit/s) of downstream bandwidth, and 1.244 Gbit/s of upstream bandwidth shared by up to 64 users.

DOCSIS 3.1 has 10 Gbit/s downstream and 1 Gbit/s upstream shared.

Realistically both will be able to deliver 1Gb/s services. It certainly isn't a "far superior" product as you say.

bloodyhawk

What kind of latency should we be expecting here, since this is the true FTTH service ?

MajesticDonkey

bloodyhawk wrote: »

What kind of latency should we be expecting here, since this is the true FTTH service ?

Definitely less than 20ms to most parts of Europe. Probably less than 50ms to the US and less than 100ms to Australia, although I wouldn't be surprised if these numbers are being over estimated.

ED E

MajesticDonkey wrote: »

Definitely less than 20ms to most parts of Europe. Probably less than 50ms to the US and less than 100ms to Australia, although I wouldn't be surprised if these numbers are being over estimated.

That seems low tbh. Its not all in the last mile. International routing and transit has a big part to play. Current UPC customers are only on 100m of copper or so, replacing that with fibre isnt going to drop latency that much.

ED E

bk wrote: »

The ESB/Vodafone JV have themselves specifically said that they will be targeting non UPC urban areas. That is a fact!

A very worrying fact! We could easily end up in a situation like the US where they go out of their way to not compete with each other and screw the end user entirely.

dalta5billion

ED E wrote: »

A very worrying fact! We could easily end up in a situation like the US where they go out of their way to not compete with each other and screw the end user entirely.

If UPC brand their new access to ESB FTTH as "UPC now with wider coverage" they could easily gain a majority share of even ESB-served customers. What's more they can avail of fantastic economies of scale as it is, so probably could undercut all other operators by selling at below-cost.

Villain

MajesticDonkey wrote: »

Definitely less than 20ms to most parts of Europe. Probably less than 50ms to the US and less than 100ms to Australia, although I wouldn't be surprised if these numbers are being over estimated.

You won't see 50ms to US, East Coast is usually about 75ms at best.

cunnijo

dalta5billion wrote: »

If UPC brand their new access to ESB FTTH as "UPC now with wider coverage" they could easily gain a majority share of even ESB-served customers. What's more they can avail of fantastic economies of scale as it is, so probably could undercut all other operators by selling at below-cost.

The answer to all that is to keep UPC off the ESB network in order to give the other ISP's a fair playing field and provide healthy competition. Simples.

bloodyhawk

ED E wrote: »

That seems low tbh. Its not all in the last mile. International routing and transit has a big part to play. Current UPC customers are only on 100m of copper or so, replacing that with fibre isnt going to drop latency that much.

Routing wise, well they have this going on:
http://www.esbtelecoms.ie/emerald_bridge/overview.htm So i would expect some lower end ping times to Uk.

boardzz

bk wrote: »

The ESB/Vodafone JV have themselves specifically said that they will be targeting non UPC urban areas. That is a fact!

BTW there are many different types of FTTH technologies. The type that the ESB are planning to use, GPON isn't significantly better then cable.

GPON has 2.488 gigabits per second (Gbit/s) of downstream bandwidth, and 1.244 Gbit/s of upstream bandwidth shared by up to 64 users.

Have you anything to back up these statements?