Why is there so much Greed in Ireland?

lufties

This is not an Ireland bashing thread. In the wake of the disgusting Paul Kiely CRC scandal. I'm just interested as to why so much greed and selfishness exists in the country. Personally, I have copped on to the fact that money isn't everything, and admittedly I'm no einstein. It seems greedy low life sociopaths get top positions, then they hop on that gravy train and milk it for all it's worth. I'm truly shocked about these latest revelation, and seethingly angry. Also,Politicians command outrageous salaries and pensions. Why can we not get/elect people that will take a modest salary and actually work to make a better country. Is it a DNA thing I wonder?

jacksie66

This post has been deleted.

lufties

jacksie66 wrote: »

This is why I fecked off out of Ireland and went to New Zealand. ..

Couldn't live that far away from family and friends, lovely place though I'm sure though.

keeponhurling

A clue with politicians is that if they don't particularly stand for anything, and have no real conviction , they are probably in it purely for the money

Femme_Fatale

I know you aren't intending to bash Ireland but I'd have thought greed here was no more or less than in any country? It's a tendency a lot of people anywhere have (including people who give out about it - not you OP; I mean people who castigate e.g. ESB workers for being greedy, when they'd be the very same themselves if they worked for the ESB), that's just what it is really.

I'd say religion might have some part of a role to play - the ethos of some protestant religions is to be far more frugal than others, so there might be less greed in societies that traditionally followed this line of thought.

But Ireland is hardly any worse than e.g. Italy, America, Britain. Look at the divide between rich and poor in e.g. South Africa.

lufties

keeponhurling wrote: »

A clue with politicians is that if they don't particularly stand for anything, and have no real conviction , they are probably in it purely for the money

I'd tend to wholly agree with you.

Holsten

If you were in these types of positions to get this type of money would you turn it down? Like hell you would.

lufties

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

I know you aren't intending to bash Ireland but I'd have thought greed here was no more or less than in any country? It's a tendency a lot of people anywhere have (including people who give out about it - not you OP; I mean people who castigate e.g. ESB workers for being greedy, when they'd be the very same themselves if they worked for the ESB), that's just what it is really.

I'd say religion might have some part of role to play - the ethos of some protestant religions is to be far more frugal than others, so there might be less greed in societies that traditionally followed this line of thought.

Yes thats true femme, but honestly we seem to be world famous at it at this stage. We should change our national anthem to that Abba song, can't think of the name of it :rolleyes:

Femme_Fatale

lufties wrote: »

Yes thats true femme, but honestly we seem to be world famous at it at this stage.

I'm not sure that's true. I think a bunch of Irish people have it in their heads that Ireland, just because they're familiar with it, is more greedy than anywhere else. It's nonsense.

And I lol at people who go on about how largescale the corruption is in Ireland. There has been corruption, yes, but if people genuinely think Ireland is at the top of the scale, they need to stop being so naive and do a bit of research.

lufties

Holsten wrote: »

If you were in these types of positions to get this type of money would you turn it down? Like hell you would.

I honestly have so many answers jumping around my head to answer that, but I'm here on my smartphone, so I'll just let it go.

dxhound2005

lufties wrote: »

This is not an Ireland bashing thread. In the wake of the disgusting Paul Kiely CRC scandal. I'm just interested as to why so much greed and selfishness exists in the country. Personally, I have copped on to the fact that money isn't everything, and admittedly I'm no einstein. It seems greedy low life sociopaths get top positions, then they hop on that gravy train and milk it for all it's worth. I'm truly shocked about these latest revelation, and seethingly angry. Also,Politicians command outrageous salaries and pensions. Why can we not get/elect people that will take a modest salary and actually work to make a better country. Is it a DNA thing I wonder?

The really big money is in the private sector. Like the bosses of gambling companies who take money off foolish people who don't know any better and then give themselves bonuses of millions. Last year the top salary in the private sector in Ireland was €15 million. These guys would laugh you out of court if you offered them the Kiely's money never mind what a politician gets.

The Narrator

I seem to get the sense that the politicians are pissed off Kiely is getting more money than them.

Anything financial linked to the government is generally fooked though.

Daqster

Greed is good, it captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.

Greed in all of its forms: greed for life, for money, for love, knowledge, has marked the upward surge of mankind.

Birroc

Irish people are mé-féiners on the whole. I think it comes from our colonial past where only the ruthless survived. We are also a nation of chancers. It is why people get away with so much corruption - we condone it because we would probably chance it ourselves given the opportunity. Sad but true. There will be shock, outage and disgust on this CRC thing until it "blows" over in a few weeks and then it will be all but forgotten with the odd reminder where a report is produced or an action plan. People can hardly remember the Anglo tapes now and has any Anglo employee gone to jail yet? No chance.

lufties

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

I'm not sure that's true. I think a bunch of Irish people have it in their heads that Ireland, just because they're familiar with it, is more greedy than anywhere else. It's nonsense.

And I lol at people who go on about how largescale the corruption is in Ireland. There has been corruption, yes, but if people genuinely think Ireland is at the top of the scale, they need to stop being so naive and do a bit of research.

Fair enough, I'm not that naive. Having lived in 4 countries in the last 5 years I should know. It just seems everything is a scam, or a cheat. Enda kenny is the highest paid prime minister in the EU apparently(or one of them). For a country of not even 5 million, that is an utter disgrace.

Femme_Fatale

Birroc wrote: »

Irish people are mé-féiners on the whole. I think it comes from our colonial past where only the ruthless survived. We are also a nation of chancers. It is why people get away with so much corruption - we condone it because we would probably chance it ourselves given the opportunity. Sad but true.

I don't know anyone like that. Far too much "we" Irish are this and this and this - from people who may be like that themselves but they shouldn't assume others would be also.

People are still very much pissed off about the Anglo tapes.

Birroc

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

I don't know anyone like that. Far too much "we" Irish are this and this and this - from people who may be like that themselves but they shouldn't assume others would be also.

People are still very much pissed off about the Anglo tapes.

Now who is being naïve...

SpaceTime

I actually don't think there's a culture of greed in Ireland, nor do I think it's somehow a "religious issue". That's just a nonsensical excuse for lack of transparency in public office.

The simple fact that would demonstrate it's not part of "culture" is that Irish people are generally horrified when such issues are revealed.

"Protestant" countries are rife with greed and corruption stories too.
Look at the UK parliamentary expenses scandal for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_parliamentary_expenses_scandal
Look at the USA : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_federal_political_scandals_in_the_United_States (list's rather long and only looking at federal situations).

The big issue in Ireland has been lack of proper legislation on transparency in public office and transparency when spending public money.

Change the law to bring it into line with best practise in say parts of Scandinavia and you suddenly have a very different set of norms applying as everything's out in the open.

Unfortunately, the world in general operates on a principle that 'greed is good'. Ireland's by no means unique in that.

If you want to see people who rate their entire existence based on how much money they have, take a look at the US or parts of Asia (especially places that are experiencing really rapid growth) where all that matters is how big your car is and what your bank balance is.

The financial services / banking sector is also just entirely about money and greed. The scale of bonuses bankers in major banks pay themselves is just mind-boggling.

Femme_Fatale

Birroc wrote: »

Now who is being naïve...

What's naive? Just because you like the idea of running down everyone in this country doesn't mean you're right.

Birroc

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

What's naive? Just because you like the idea of running down everyone in this country doesn't mean you're right.

Less of the drama FF...it is my observation after a lifetime living here. One post and I am "running down everyone in this country" because you don't agree.

Czarcasm

lufties wrote: »

Yes thats true femme, but honestly we seem to be world famous at it at this stage. We should change our national anthem to that Abba song, can't think of the name of it :rolleyes:

Money, money, money?
Waterloo?
Disillusion?
Gimme, gimme, gimme?
S.O.S.?
Take a chance on me?
The winner takes it all?
You owe me one?

There's quite a few to choose from...

marozz

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/ireland-ranks-21-out-of-177-countries-on-corruption-index-1.1615524

Ireland is ranked 21 out of 177 countries on corruption index

lufties

Czarcasm wrote: »

Money, money, money?
Waterloo?
Disillusion?
Gimme, gimme, gimme?
S.O.S.?
Take a chance on me?
The winner takes it all?
You owe me one?

There's quite a few to choose from...

Haha I lol'd:D

My name is URL

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

And I lol at people who go on about how largescale the corruption is in Ireland. There has been corruption, yes, but if people genuinely think Ireland is at the top of the scale, they need to stop being so naive and do a bit of research.

I don't think it's a matter of Ireland having more corruption than elsewhere, but it certainly seems to be a lot more accepted and even expected here than in numerous other places.

Some of the stuff that goes on here would lead to dismissals, disgrace and even automatic prison terms in the UK for example.

You just have to look at the derisive tone that certain posters here take whenever there's a thread about cronyism or corruption. They'll go out of their way to defend it all, and attempt to turn criticism around and attack those who take issue with it.. calling them crusties, rabble rousers and the like.

Red Pepper

We are a deeply corrupt country. There is no doubt in that.
The sooner we face up to that fact, the sooner we can start to rectify it.
At the moment we have zero accountability - this can only make things worse.

aprilmarch

The point is, ladies and gentleman, that greed -- for lack of a better word -- is good.

Greed is right.

Greed works.

Greed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.

Greed, in all of its forms -- greed for life, for money, for love, knowledge -- has marked the upward surge of mankind.

And greed -- you mark my words -- will not only save Teldar Paper, but that other malfunctioning corporation called the USA.

That pretty sums up my opinion, using the wise words of Gordon Gekko

dxhound2005

lufties wrote: »

Fair enough, I'm not that naive. Having lived in 4 countries in the last 5 years I should know. It just seems everything is a scam, or a cheat. Enda kenny is the highest paid prime minister in the EU apparently(or one of them). For a country of not even 5 million, that is an utter disgrace.

It depends on whether he is giving value for money. Do you associate greed only with politicians? The bosses of Paddy Power pay themselves 4 or 5 times what Obama gets. Is that being greedy?

If there is unhappiness with the performance of politicians perhaps the time has come to raise their salaries to the point where the bosses from the private sector will put themselves forward to run the country. If they can make money running a drinks company or an airline then they will surely suceed at running a government. But I wouldn't expect them to take a 90% pay cut.

SpaceTime

I think the major issue in Ireland is that we need complete transparency requirements put on a legislative basis for anything that involves public money.

Coupled with strong Freedom of Information rules, that's all it takes to fix the problem.

Add transparency and accountability and the problem fixes itself.

Greed is an essential part of human nature though. There's nowhere on earth where people are living in some kind of utopian society that has no greed and no corruption. It simply doesn't exist.
You need rules and regulations in place to keep people from misbehaving and acting against the public interest. That's pretty much all you can do!

Booms, bubbles and meteoric economic growth like we saw until 2007 tend to bring it out even more too!

The simple reality though is that human nature tends to crave power, status and wealth so, if you don't put checks and balances in the system the people who tend to crave it most will abuse the system.
That's just life. There's nothing uniquely Irish about it. It's just human behaviour.

Femme_Fatale

SpaceTime wrote: »

I actually don't think there's a culture of greed in Ireland, nor do I think it's somehow a "religious issue". That's just a nonsensical excuse for lack of transparency in public office.

Having actually studied how religion affects society, you can disagree all you like. And I haven't a notion where the "excuse for lack of transparency in public office" comment is coming from.
Certain protestant faiths with a hugely frugal ethos make their societies less prone to greed.

Pinch Flat

We're a society of individuals. It shows thorough all walks of life here. There's also admiration for someone who pulls a stroke and gets one up on someone else. We might all cry out about the big scandals, but on a domestic level people are happy to go in the take.

I went for a job interview on a public sector role before Christmas. The amount if people that asked me if I had any pull in the organisation or knew someone who could pull a stroke was truly depressing.

aprilmarch

My more serious point is that we live in a capitalistic and materialistic society, and always have done so. We are pre-wired and pre-disposed toward greed. That includes, but is not limited to, greed for money, greed for attention, green for knowledge, greed for affection, greed for recognition etc...

Mint Aero

It's the gombeen psyche. People under the age of 35 don't possess it but unfortunately people over 50 are riddled with it. Hierarchy is and always was prevalent in their mindset. It comes from Catholicism and their school years up to the intercert. "The Big Man" is a phrase which has died out among the middle class thankfully. No longer do people revere a fat grey haired man in a suit. These characters were a cancer in this country. Thick sh*thead boyos with friends in the right places who were equally thick and sh*theaded. They thought the world revolved around them and that they were entitled to everything. For no reason other than the gombeen psyche existing in this country.

Femme_Fatale

Pinch Flat wrote: »

We're a society of individuals.

No we're not. We're socially intertwined.

aprilmarch

Mint Aero wrote: »

It's the gombeen psyche. People under the age of 35 don't possess it but unfortunately people over 50 are riddled with it. Hierarchy is and always was prevalent in their mindset. It comes from Catholicism and their school years up to the intercert. "The Big Man" is a phrase which has died out among the middle class thankfully. No longer do people revere a fat grey haired man in a suit. These characters were a cancer in this country. Thick sh*thead boyos with friends in the right places who were equally thick and sh*theaded. They thought the world revolved around them and that they were entitled to everything. For no reason other than the gombeen psyche existing in this country.

What does the big man mean?

Pinch Flat

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

No we're not. We're socially intertwined.

Have to say I disagree. People here generally worry about their own life and patch rather than society at large.

rolliepoley

An Irishman would sell his own mother for a few bob, and would just as quick hang his fellow comrades to save his slick sole.
Its rotten and inbedded and its not something that you can get rid of over night.

aprilmarch

Pinch Flat wrote: »

Have to say I disagree. People here generally worry about their own life and patch rather than society at large.

You are entirely right - we are very much a society of semi-autonomous barons.

MrBobbyZ

Greed and corruption is prevalent everywhere. In countries large and small, towns, companies, charities, religions etc etc etc.

It should not surprise us when someones behaviour does not suit our moral outlook. However, I do think this country has a terrible attitude to dealing with corrupt people.

Just seems that people in certain positions can act with impunity. No real consequences to their actions.

Femme_Fatale

rolliepoley wrote: »

An Irishman would sell his own mother for a few bob, and would just as quick hang his fellow comrades to save his slick sole.
Its rotten and inbedded and its not something that you can get rid of over night.

aprilmarch wrote: »

You are entirely right - we are very much a society of semi-autonomous barons.

What?

Speak for yourselves - really.

This is like being in a ****ing student bar discussion.

Oh you're so profound...!

aprilmarch

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Having actually studied how religion affects society, you can disagree all you like. And I haven't a notion where the "excuse for lack of transparency in public office" comment is coming from.
Certain protestant faiths with a hugely frugal ethos make their societies less prone to greed.

Flowery language

Come back with your guns loaded and elaborate

Pinch Flat

aprilmarch wrote: »

Flowery language

Come back with your guns loaded and elaborate

I have to say I agree with femme fatale on that religious attitudes of countries. Look at Ireland, Greece, Portugal and compare to say Lutheran Scandinavian or Germanic countries. Chalk and cheese as to how corruption is tolerated and dealt with

aprilmarch

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

What?

Speak for yourselves - really.

This is like being in a ****ing student bar discussion.

Oh you're so profound...!

What is your definition of anomie?
Dundrum town center not open?

Femme_Fatale

aprilmarch wrote: »

What is your definition of anomie?

Flowery language.

Dundrum town center not open?

The irony is: I don't give a sh1t about shopping and labels and shoes and so on; it's possible not to be greedy yet still see through all the shyte-talk here about how "we" as a whole are particularly greedy.

rolliepoley

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

What?

Speak for yourselves - really.

This is like being in a ****ing student bar discussion.

Oh you're so profound...!

Of course its profound have'nt we lived throught it;

Femme_Fatale

rolliepoley wrote: »

Of course its profound have'nt we lived throught it;

Yes, that means all Irish men are as you described. but not you of course.

aprilmarch

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Flowery language.

The irony is: I don't give a sh1t about shopping and labels and shoes and so on; it's possible not to be greedy yet still see through all the shyte-talk here about how "we" as a whole are particularly greedy.

We are greedy. How do you explain the property bubble? A bunch of morons jumping aboard a bandwagon.

Femme_Fatale

aprilmarch wrote: »

We are greedy.

Speak for thine self.

Stojkovic

marozz wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/ireland-ranks-21-out-of-177-countries-on-corruption-index-1.1615524

Ireland is ranked 21 out of 177 countries on corruption index

You see, they even fixed that !!!

SpaceTime

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Having actually studied how religion affects society, you can disagree all you like. And I haven't a notion where the "excuse for lack of transparency in public office" comment is coming from.
Certain protestant faiths with a hugely frugal ethos make their societies less prone to greed.

I spent quite a long time studying political behaviour, political sociology and actually did research into corruption.
The religious argument is really greatly overstated in my opinion. It also often reflects notions (particularly from 19th century Britain) that they were superior due to religious beliefs.

Incidentally, I'd actually argue that the Church of England isn't exactly what you'd call a model of protestantism either. It's pretty much a slightly modified split from the Catholic Church with a few tweaks here and there. I've certainly never seen any great leanings towards pious frugality! If anything, it supported a lavish upper class and a ridged class system.

For example, one could argue that the nordic countries are 'protestant' and that's why they are so organised. However, one could equally argue that due to climate!

One study that I read looked at how colder countries in Europe tend to be less corrupt, more organised and generally better run because they have to be.

If you run things badly in Britain, Ireland or most of France at worst you'll be a little wet and uncomfortable and maybe miserable.

If you run things badly in Scandinavia or Germany a large % of the population risks death due to starvation / lack of heat.

If you run things badly in Italy or Spain to the point there's no roof on your house, you'd still be OK.

One would have to analyse how much of the behaviour in certain countries is just a developed social norm. Their religious observances may reflect their societies as their societies may reflect their religious observances.

..

In an Irish context you also have to factor the break from Britain and the civil war into the mix too. These took a lot of focus off the normal day-to-day running of the state. Attention was entirely focused on lofty issues of nationalism and constitutional questions.

Meanwhile, the day-to-day running of the country (a minor issue in comparison) was operating on autopilot and also on a shoe string (lacking staff, lacking resources, lacking money).
The result of that was you had charitable organisations (especially religious ones) stepping into the mix and accountability disappearing. There was an element of necessity at first which then became a power grab.

You also had a civil war mentality that impacted how people voted for several generations after independence. The FF vs FG divide was nothing to do with policy and everything to do with blind loyalty based on civil war issues.
The result of that was some very strange politics which has only really started to break down since the 1990s!

I think what you're seeing now is a generation that doesn't really view politics the way their grandparents did and a political system that's long forgotten the civil war.

A hell of a lot has changed in a very short time in Ireland.

Church influence has basically disappeared due to self-destructive behaviour and a sudden waking up of the public.

The electorate's not voting predictably anymore and Fianna Fail's been given an electoral hammering that's almost unprecedented in a western democracy due to their handling of the state's finances.

I am not as pessimistic about Ireland's society as some people on this forum are.

Jimmy Garlic

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Certain protestant faiths with a hugely frugal ethos make their societies less prone to greed.

The only one I can think of is Quakerism, historically at least. I have come across a lot of bible thumping, church going Presbyterians and Baptists that are very greedy and materialistic. Hypocrisy and religion go hand in hand.

MrBobbyZ

Stojkovic wrote: »

You see, they even fixed that !!!

Cant keep up those dastardly Danes eh?