Should John Lydon (Johnny Rotten) be recognised by the Irish People/Government

thebaz

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

There was talent there apart from Sid Vicious obviously who never even learnt how to play the bass guitar,

Never mind the bollocks , was a masterpiece - its sound defined a generation , its graphics have never been bettered - so much amazing creativity was going on in West and North London around '76 / '77

I've read also , that Sid could play , not to the standard of Glen Matlock

anncoates

thebaz wrote: »

I've read also , that Sid could play , not to the standard of Glen Matlock

Not really.

DEFTLEFTHAND

thebaz wrote: »

Never mind the bollocks , was a masterpiece - its sound defined a generation , its graphics have never been bettered - so much amazing creativity was going on in West and North London around '76 / '77

I've read also , that Sid could play , not to the standard of Glen Matlock

He was a local thug and friend of Lydon who used to attend their clubs gigs when they started out in 75. McClaren noticed him and liked his image so he decided he wanted him in the band. Matlock a decent bassist was more reserved in personality and didn't fit the punk image in McClarens eye.

So he ousted him and put this clown in instead, He tried to learn but he never reached the standard for live performance. They used to lock in a room and demand that he practice. It was simple enough bass chords but he wasn't musical in any shape or form. When they recorded Nevermind The Bollocks Sid was in hospital recovering from a heroin overdose. Steve Jones plays both bass and lead on all tracks apart from Anarchy in the UK which Matlock was temporarily brought back for. They mixed in a pathetic attempt Sid made on 'Bodies' to the finished version on the album to give him a performance credit.

anncoates

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8z2M_hpoPwk

mikom

Irish man, I'd say, but......I could be wrong......... I could be right.........

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rjy8oLVOvi4

Daqster

McLaren just stole everything he could from the New York Dolls, The Stooges the Ramones. I like the Pistols and all and they without question made an massive impact on the UK punk scene, but Punk was well on it's way and would have happened with or without them. There must be a ton of interviews out there of Lydon saying that nobody dared challenge the establishment before them, but that's all bollox. I mean, if the Mods and Skinheads weren't challenging the establishment in the 60s, who the fcuk was.

Lydon to me is just an attention seeker with a lot of charisma He got very lucky and was really just in the right place at the right time. He was no different than many around at that time. McLaren is the real genius (and Westwood to a great degree also) of the pistols success. He was the Simon Cowell of the punk world and the New York Dolls, The Stooges the Ramones were the blueprint for what he wanted. They all got shafted financially by McClaren but that's what happens to manufactured boybands.

The original punks:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdyEEk5WrrI

DEFTLEFTHAND

That's the promo video for the single, not the recording session. Nobody lays down tracks playing as a unit.

joseph brand

Mint Aero wrote: »

Never heard of him, who's he?

Is this how posters increment their post count?

sawdoubters

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Lydon

MonaPizza

Sikpupi wrote: »

Have always had a respect for John Lydon / Johnny Rotten and wonder should he recognised as in an 'Irish' context and given an acknowledgement that he has promoted the Irish world-wide.

We as a country are trying to hitch our star to Tom Cruise & Obama.... but John is 2nd generation Irish that has done well and in effect has changed the world! He has never denied his roots.

Shane McGowan is another that would fall into same category.

But to see Jeremy Irons being made an honorary Corkman - surely would mean that John should be welcomed into the fold of 'famous Irishmen' who have contributed to promoting the Irish worldwide.

.... discuss!!

Like somehow people are so humbled and honoured to be allowed by us to "be" Irish. Yeah it's nice to be Irish if you are(and I am) but I'm not going to tell some Japanese physicist or some Austrian cellist or some Persian architect or some Russian ballerina that they are nothing coz they ain't paddies.

BillyMitchel

But but but but..... Did he not want to save the queen?!

Comes across as an asshole anytime I've seen interviews or the like. Nationality is irrelevant.

Gyalist

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJ2Xb4wgCL0

This always make me laugh - wish I could find the whole episode, it was hilarious.

John Lydon was the narrator on what is probably the best skateboard video ever made - the classic Sorry from Flip Skateboards.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hBAbUb-LEY

MonstaMash

Got thrown into the back of a Black Maria with Mr.Lydon in October 1980 at the grand old age of 16, accused of being involved in an alleged fracas after the Bollock Brothers gig in the Edmund Burke hall in Trinity college :cool:

A very nice chap, spoke up for me with the Garda, told them I had nothing to do with it & I was completely innocent of all accusations.

Had to wait in a holding cell until the Garda called my da to collect me, because I was a minor...morto

Foxhound38

Sikpupi wrote: »

Well that doesn't disqualify him. We have plenty of full-blooded Twats in the country...

Yeah, but we're stuck with them - no sense adding to it...

dd972

wazky wrote: »

Rejected? What utter bollocks, he is English by birth .

Was J.G Ballard Chinese?
Was James Connolly Scottish?

Does your birthplace ( which is arbitrary and dependent on your parent's location ) have to be some all consuming determinant of one's personality and identity? I've always found the disdain for people born 'over the stream' to Irish parents laughable, I wouldn't think the Dutch would turn their noses up at a Dutch citizen born to Dutch parents in Antwerp.

Another manifestation of the village idiot mentality of Ireland, 'we're so unique', 'we're so witty and whimsical', 'listen to my accent and swoon', ' you weren't born here so your're not in the club'.

Femme_Fatale

Haven't encountered disdain towards people of Irish parentage born in the UK, but that's only my experience.

Lydon was treated with hostility that time in Dublin because he was either acting or deemed to be acting the bollocks. It was hardly a "turning away of the returned prodigal son". Drama queen central.

I've mixed views on him - he can be an awful dick, but I'd say some of that is hammed up. In private I'd say he's all right. And he's clever and articulate and single-minded... apart from the butter ad.

I absolutely LOVE PIL. The Sex Pistols I'd take or leave.

tipptom

anncoates wrote: »

Yet they love Lowry.

The mind boggles.

Ah,cmon now,Micheal learned the bass overnight and we are going to shunt him in to a band with Jackie Healy Rae and Beverly Cooper Flynn,talks are ongoing with Bill Grundy,its going to be mega.

marozz

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Haven't encountered disdain towards people of Irish parentage born in the UK, but that's only my experience.

Lydon was treated with hostility that time in Dublin because he was either acting or deemed to be acting the bollocks. It was hardly a "turning away of the returned prodigal son". Drama queen central.

I've mixed views on him - he can be an awful dick, but I'd say some of that is hammed up. In private I'd say he's all right. And he's clever and articulate and single-minded... apart from the butter ad.

I absolutely LOVE PIL. The Sex Pistols I'd take or leave.

He just went into the wrong pub. I went into the Horse and Tram once in 80's and they refused to serve me because of the way I was dressed. I gave the barman a bit of verbal abuse and left before it got out of hand.

FTA69

A lot of my friends over here are second-generation Irish and they've pretty much all had hassle back in Ireland over their English accent. I saw a full-on brawl erupt once in a pub I was working with in Oakwood after some twat from Galway kept referring to a group of other lads as "Plastic Paddies".

Personally I think there's traditionally been a sense where emigrants who went to England were looked down upon a bit while the ones who went to the USA were lauded. It grates with a few second-generation Irish in England that they spent every Summer at home, were raised in an Irish cultural context and still get called "English bastards" while people fawn over Yanks with a great, great whatever who came from Mayo in the 1840s.

dd972

FTA69 wrote: »

A lot of my friends over here are second-generation Irish and they've pretty much all had hassle back in Ireland over their English accent. I saw a full-on brawl erupt once in a pub I was working with in Oakwood after some twat from Galway kept referring to a group of other lads as "Plastic Paddies". /QUOTE]

That Galway bloke you mentioned probably gives out about UKIP and BNP types yet he's a Hiberno mirror image of them.

timthumbni

Frankie Lee wrote: »

http://thequietus.com/articles/05099-pil-public-image-limited-electric-picnic-john-lydon-irish

A good read.

I smell bullsh£t on this one.

SharpshooterTom

The only problem I have with these conversations is that a lot of Irish people don't understand is that its all well and good referring to us plastics as English (and they're perfectly entitled to so), but what they don't know is that a lot of English people don't consider people born in England of Irish parents as English either (unless we become famous ), so in effect we're in neither really.

I was born in England lived there till I was 14, and 99% of the local community would regard me as Irish paddy, and I had no choice in that. I got teased an awful lot for my Irish background in school.

I've been living in NI for the past 13 years, and yes the nationalist community here regards me as a Brit, a hun, orange so and so etc. But large sections of the loyalist community would see me as the "other side" as soon as I mention that I come from an Irish catholic family here. And yes quite a few have referred to me a as a fenian or a taig as well with that.

Now I know till the day I die as long as I live here I will be English, but if I get a quick Ryanair flight to England and I'm back to being a paddy. This situation will remain so as long as I live.

I think if I ever emigrated to Canada or Australia somehow and stayed there long term I would consider renouncing my British citizenship. I have spent only a few days since I was 14, so in affect its just another foreign country now. I have an EU passport with my Irish one so I don't "need" it and at least I have family in Ireland to visit. I know its a bit strange/extreme to consider that but I suppose it would be out of principle really if anything since I have no relations in Britain and I'm just seen as a foreigner there these days anyway. Bleh.

wazky

dd972 wrote: »

Another manifestation of the village idiot mentality of Ireland, 'we're so unique', 'we're so witty and whimsical', 'listen to my accent and swoon', ' you weren't born here so your're not in the club'.

I would class the slobbering and fawning over everyone who is successful and has the faintest ancestral connection with Ireland as the real manifestation of the village idiot.

But 'shure isnt your great grannys uncles mother brother a great lad for the Guinness, that would make you at least three quarters Irish bedad.'

Shakti

No offence to the man but Lydon isn't even a fraction of fraction of the writer McGowan is and I suspect Lydon would agree,

dd972

Shakti wrote: »

No offence to the man but Lydon isn't even a fraction of fraction of the writer McGowan is and I suspect Lydon would agree,

Different genres altogether albeit rooted in the Punk era, Metal Box by Pil is a masterpiece, I wish MacGowan had been more productive over the last 20 years but he seems happy with his lot.

I'd love to see one of the Hibernia than thous go up to him and his entourage and call him 'English' then see what'd happen. :pac:

Dr.MickKiller

Shakti wrote: »

No offence to the man but Lydon isn't even a fraction of fraction of the writer McGowan is and I suspect Lydon would agree,

I'm sure he would, and on the flip side, McGowan thought that the Sex Pistols were the only true punk band. The two were good friends.

moxin

Jayzus, if the bloke feels Irish and embraces it like many 1st\2nd generation English people, so what? What's the big deal?

Back in 1980 it appears the moral police got the upper hand, we surely have moved on since then?!

Shakti

dd972 wrote: »

Different genres altogether albeit rooted in the Punk era, Metal Box by Pil is a masterpiece, I wish MacGowan had been more productive over the last 20 years but he seems happy with his lot.

I'd love to see one of the Hibernia than thous go up to him and his entourage and call him 'English' then see what'd happen. :pac:

I'd say it's more a case of getting 'Paddy' thrown at him over in the U.K.

Rhys Essien

Sikpupi wrote: »

Have always had a respect for John Lydon / Johnny Rotten and wonder should he recognised as in an 'Irish' context and given an acknowledgement that he has promoted the Irish world-wide.

We as a country are trying to hitch our star to Tom Cruise & Obama.... but John is 2nd generation Irish that has done well and in effect has changed the world! He has never denied his roots.

Shane McGowan is another that would fall into same category.

But to see Jeremy Irons being made an honorary Corkman - surely would mean that John should be welcomed into the fold of 'famous Irishmen' who have contributed to promoting the Irish worldwide.

.... discuss!!

Some of Jeremy Irons ancestors are actually from Innishannon in West Cork and he himself has lived there for the last 20+ years.Surely this is enough reason why he should be honoured.

Witchie

I recognise him......when he comes on the telly in the butter ad I say to myself so I do "there's yon Johnny Rotten boyo from that punk band I am almost 2 young to know about"