Chin Ups

Mongo

How's everyone?

I've been joined a gym for about 6 months now and at first just used it for cardio workouts and I'm much fitter now. Recently I've started lifting weights (shoulder press, chest press etc). I've tried to do chin ups but I struggle big time. Any tips on improving in this area? I'm quite heavy so I suppose that is holding me back?

Cheers for the help

Dtp1979

Mongo wrote: »

How's everyone?

I've been joined a gym for about 6 months now and at first just used it for cardio workouts and I'm much fitter now. Recently I've started lifting weights (shoulder press, chest press etc). I've tried to do chin ups but I struggle big time. Any tips on improving in this area? I'm quite heavy so I suppose that is holding me back?

Cheers for the help

Work on your lays and biceps. It'll help. Especially the lat pull down machine. Alternate under grip and overhand grip sets

sea_monkey

Do you do any lat pulldowns?

Look into doing negative chin ups and work from there. They are a hard exercise especially for beginners.

Mongo

Yeah I do lat pulldowns during every workout. At the moment I'm puling 55kg. Another question, what's a good exercise for biceps? I mostly use dumbells but barbell is available too.

Duck's hoop

Mongo wrote: »

Another question, what's a good exercise for biceps? I mostly use dumbells but barbell is available too.

Chins one of the best. Keep doing them. You'll get better.

TimeToShine

Negatives are also good, or the assisted pull-up machine if your gym has one.

JJayoo

Does your gym have a cable row machine? if so include this in your workouts and get stronger at it, and keep at the lat pulldown machine.

RidleyRider

Band assisted for max reps.

/thread.

Mongo

Thanks for the tips guys!

Chancer3001

+1 for negative reps.

And yes stick with them. Even if you're doing awful or you can't do one.

I used to be in that boat. Can do sets of them now.

siblers

Chin ups are really hard at the start, keep at them and you'll soon improve. I wouldn't bother with negative chin ups initially, just use your momentum to build up some strength and you'll soon start being able to do 3-4 reps. Keep at it and after a while you'll be doing more and more reps, after that you can start to do negative chin ups. I was hopeless at them at the start, kept at them and now I can do multiple sets of negative chin ups without much difficulty.

TimeToShine

siblers wrote: »

Chin ups are really hard at the start, keep at them and you'll soon improve. I wouldn't bother with negative chin ups initially, just use your momentum to build up some strength and you'll soon start being able to do 3-4 reps. Keep at it and after a while you'll be doing more and more reps, after that you can start to do negative chin ups. I was hopeless at them at the start, kept at them and now I can do multiple sets of negative chin ups without much difficulty.

why would you bother with negatives if you can do 3 or 4 reps already?

Slydice

Hang.

I couldn't do a single chin up when I started trying. The advice on the internet is hang.

So:
1. Hang as long as you can
2. Try lifting 1/4 foot
2. Try lifting 1/2 foot
2. Try lifting 1 foot
etc..
eventually, I got a chin up and then more

From what I gather, people don't tend to ever use their chin ups and pull ups muscles in day to day activities so that's why it's so hard at the start.

JJayoo

Negative chins are great but make sure you are stepping up on a chair/bench before you begin to lower your self. Don't jump and don't rush yourself, treat them like a squat/deadlift time wise and by that I mean you can take a few seconds between each rep.

dastardly00

I found the chin-up section in Convict Conditioning very helpful.

siblers

TimeToShine wrote: »

why would you bother with negatives if you can do 3 or 4 reps already?

Negatives are harder, doing it the other way is easier as you're using the momentum of your body to keep lifting yourself up.

RidleyRider

Weighted negatives if any.

TimeToShine

siblers wrote: »

Negatives are harder, doing it the other way is easier as you're using the momentum of your body to keep lifting yourself up.

Oh right, I've never tried them while kipping, probably because the pullup bar in my gym is so fragile! I'm trying to work my way up to muscle-ups so I might try and kip my way to the top instead of negatives for a change.

siblers

TimeToShine wrote: »

Oh right, I've never tried them while kipping, probably because the pullup bar in my gym is so fragile! I'm trying to work my way up to muscle-ups so I might try and kip my way to the top instead of negatives for a change.

Negatives aren't that hard really, if you do enough of the kipping style you'll build up enough strength to be able to transit to negatives, that's what I did anyway.

liliq

What are negative chin ups?
There's an assisted chin up machine at my gym so I use that but am still struggling :O

RidleyRider

liliq wrote: »

What are negative chin ups?
There's an assisted chin up machine at my gym so I use that but am still struggling :O

They're basically the negative part of te rep i.e you're at the top of the chin up and slowly bring yourself down. Using your own BW to manipulate your speed down.

nice_guy80

RidleyRider wrote: »

They're basically the negative part of te rep i.e you're at the top of the chin up and slowly bring yourself down. Using your own BW to manipulate your speed down.

Best advice I ever got to improve chin ups was....

Every time you walk past the chin up bar, bang out 2/3 chins. Build up the amount you do in one session

If you can't do even one, you need to work on grip strength - hanging from the bar and strength for the negative (lowering) part.

Best of luck

conzy

What kind of assistance should be used for max reps?

I used to be able to do 3x8 chins when I was around 70kg. Now that I'm closer to 80kg I find my sets looks like this:

7,5,4,3,4,3,3

So what kind of assistance should I be using, 15% of BW or so? Any suitable band in D8 fitness?

Alf Veedersane

conzy wrote: »

What kind of assistance should be used for max reps?

I used to be able to do 3x8 chins when I was around 70kg. Now that I'm closer to 80kg I find my sets looks like this:

7,5,4,3,4,3,3

So what kind of assistance should I be using, 15% of BW or so? Any suitable band in D8 fitness?

I don't think you need to get an assistance band. Just do more pull ups!

And some rows and the like will help too.

RidleyRider

conzy wrote: »

What kind of assistance should be used for max reps?

I used to be able to do 3x8 chins when I was around 70kg. Now that I'm closer to 80kg I find my sets looks like this:

7,5,4,3,4,3,3

So what kind of assistance should I be using, 15% of BW or so? Any suitable band in D8 fitness?

Just get in more of them. Although if you do want a band; http://www.d8fitness.com/product/1x-meduim-green-1-34/ that should keep you up no problem. Open to correction, it may even be too thick and make life too easy.

thegreatiam

I have the purple one from d8, which is 1 down from green i believe, and its grand for me for chin ups, im weighing in at around 97+kg at the moment

Sangre

conzy wrote: »

What kind of assistance should be used for max reps?

I used to be able to do 3x8 chins when I was around 70kg. Now that I'm closer to 80kg I find my sets looks like this:

7,5,4,3,4,3,3

So what kind of assistance should I be using, 15% of BW or so? Any suitable band in D8 fitness?

Just do less in your first sets if there is such a fatigue drop-off. It should look more like: 4,4,4,4,4,4,6 etc.

Triangla

Best way to improve pull ups/ chin ups is by doing pull ups/ chin ups. Just go for it.

I use the following ladder.

Do 1 pull up, take 10 second rest.
Do 2 pull ups, take 20 second rest.

Do this all the way to 6 pull up 60 seconds rest.

Repeat for 3 total sets. 63 total pull ups.

Maybe start off on working up to 3 or 4 max for 3 sets and take it from there.

Sounds straight forward but that's 18 to 30 pull ups there.

Keep them strict, no kipping (swinging yourself up there). Get yourself up to the bar then lower yourself at a slower pace back down.

Watch your grip, keep your baby finger wrapped around the bar first and the rest of your hand will follow.

Stick with it as it's a great exercise.

conzy

Thanks for the input guys.

I'll start busting out more of them, I think a lot of the problem is technique. I do pendlay rows 4x8 up to 65kg on those.. I also do a lot of rear delt flys. Going to pick up one of those red mini bands and add in band pull aparts too.

I only do chins once a week atm so I'll try fit them in another day too.

RidleyRider

conzy wrote: »

Thanks for the input guys.

I'll start busting out more of them, I think a lot of the problem is technique. I do pendlay rows 4x8 up to 65kg on those.. I also do a lot of rear delt flys. Going to pick up one of those red mini bands and add in band pull aparts too.

I only do chins once a week atm so I'll try fit them in another day too.

When I was looking to improve my pull ups I supersetted them with squats. It's convenient being able to turn around and just bang out 5 or so reps with squats.

Just a suggestion if you're struggling to fit them in more often.

Alf Veedersane

When you were 70kg, if you'd hung a 10kg plate off a belt, would you have been knocking out 3 sets of 8?

Just do them more often. Or do some other vertical pulling exercises like the plated latt pulldown or the cable pulldown with close grip and/or wide grip in addition to your chin ups/pull ups.

rubadub

RidleyRider wrote: »

Weighted negatives if any.

Why weighted? it sounds like the OP can't even manage one yet, and says he is "quite heavy".

I do negatives quite a bit, a lot of them unweighted if doing bodyweight exercise, and below my usual 1RM if using weights.

I know some guides recommend 120% of your 1RM, I am not comfortable doing that. I feel I get a good workout well below 1RM, I might go 12-20 reps.

We don't know the OPs regular 1RM too, if he cannot manage a singe chinup then his current bodyweight is obviously past 1RM possibly well past it.

Sangre

conzy wrote: »

Thanks for the input guys.

I'll start busting out more of them, I think a lot of the problem is technique. I do pendlay rows 4x8 up to 65kg on those.. I also do a lot of rear delt flys. Going to pick up one of those red mini bands and add in band pull aparts too.

I only do chins once a week atm so I'll try fit them in another day too.

Forget rows, bands etc for assistance. This exercise doesn't need any thought. You just need to do more of them. Every time you walk past a bar and your back isn't fatigued knock out a few.

But don't just aim to do more and more. When you can do a reasonable amount, mix in low reps and weighted chins for a while.

Dathai

Actually learning to use your lats is probably the best advice I was given. As much as bands help, actively learning how to use the muscle groups associated played a major part in it.

RidleyRider

rubadub wrote: »

Why weighted? it sounds like the OP can't even manage one yet, and says he is "quite heavy".

I do negatives quite a bit, a lot of them unweighted if doing bodyweight exercise, and below my usual 1RM if using weights.

I know some guides recommend 120% of your 1RM, I am not comfortable doing that. I feel I get a good workout well below 1RM, I might go 12-20 reps.

We don't know the OPs regular 1RM too, if he cannot manage a singe chinup then his current bodyweight is obviously past 1RM possibly well past it.

How can anyone have a 1RM when it's your own body weight? Unless you mean something like I was 85kg last week and did one pull up and this week I'm 86kg and can do a pull up again?

I'm saying weighted negatives for a few reasons:

More lat/bicep activation- More strength to be gained from more stress under the muscles.
If you can consistently do my first point for 10 or so reps adding weight each week/time you do the exercises ones you take the weight off and try starting from the bottom and pulling up it should be easier.


Anyway, I'd still go for bands if I was the OP to help. Best way to get better is to do the actual movement- be it assisted or not.

rubadub

RidleyRider wrote: »

How can anyone have a 1RM when it's your own body weight?

My point is if he cannot do a single chinup, which it sounded like to me, then it is by definition beyond his 1RM, doesn't matter how hard it is to calculate its beyond it. Therefore we have no idea of what he is capable of, or how heavy he is, so I would not be adding weight from the start.

RidleyRider wrote: »

More lat/bicep activation- More strength to be gained from more stress under the muscles.
If you can consistently do my first point for 10 or so reps adding weight

No problem with that, but he might not be able for a single controlled negative for all we know. If he can manage a good few, and feels OK 2 days after (when the real DOMS can hit) then he might want to add weight.

I was not having a go or anything either, I was genuinely interested in hearing the logic behind doing weighted ones. It has always interested me why people to 120% of a regular 1RM, when I mentioned doing below my 1RM before some people were sort of saying it was a waste of time.

I find it weird that so many people rave about negatives for chins but do not recommend them for other exercises.

MikeC101

rubadub wrote: »

I find it weird that so many people rave about negatives for chins but do not recommend them for other exercises.

Possibly because they're reasonably simple to perform for chins - jump/use a step up and lower yourself slowly, whereas for other compounds like barbell bench/squat/deadlift it's either awkward to do because it requires a spotter or else is kinda dangerous?

You see them recommended in some programs for some things though, like concentration curls (use free hand to assist the weight up and lower slowly) and Arnold used to do them for barbell curls on the last reps of sets sometimes (cheat the weight up then lower slowly, taking as long as you can).

Plus without the use of bands or whatever, it's hard to scale chins like you can with other lifts, so I'd guess negatives gained popularity for that too.

RidleyRider

rubadub wrote: »

My point is if he cannot do a single chinup, which it sounded like to me, then it is by definition beyond his 1RM, doesn't matter how hard it is to calculate its beyond it. Therefore we have no idea of what he is capable of, or how heavy he is, so I would not be adding weight from the start.

No problem with that, but he might not be able for a single controlled negative for all we know. If he can manage a good few, and feels OK 2 days after (when the real DOMS can hit) then he might want to add weight.

I was not having a go or anything either, I was genuinely interested in hearing the logic behind doing weighted ones. It has always interested me why people to 120% of a regular 1RM, when I mentioned doing below my 1RM before some people were sort of saying it was a waste of time.

I find it weird that so many people rave about negatives for chins but do not recommend them for other exercises.

Fair enough. I didn't really think of why someone wouldn't be capable of slowly bringing themselves down from the bar tbh.

I've seen people use an overly controlled sort of thing doing bench and squats and other stuff for isolation.

I think it's just getting more TUT for anything anyway e.g the more you practice something, the better you get. Practiced cleverly that is.

househero

Mongo wrote: »

Yeah I do lat pulldowns during every workout. At the moment I'm puling 55kg. Another question, what's a good exercise for biceps? I mostly use dumbells but barbell is available too.

Don't do the same muscle group (exercises) every day.

Increase the weight of your lat pull downs over the next few weeks/months up to your body weight and try to do chin ups (there's no shame in doing partial reps until you can do a full set).

Biceps are a massively over worked small muscle group, ignore the recommendation to work out your biceps if your a new body builder.

Concentrate on pull ups, squats and bench press or fly. Reduce your cardio and do a lot more weights to get thinner and look better. Look on YouTube for a man called scooby. His form is excellent, be warned, there is a lot of bro science in working out, lots of peoples advice will injure you.

dylbert

Don't know if it's been mentioned in this thread yet but when practicing chins it's best not to.go to failure.

Duck's hoop

RidleyRider wrote: »

When I was looking to improve my pull ups I supersetted them with squats.

Isn't this all about chins?

RidleyRider

Duck's hoop wrote: »

Isn't this all about chins?

So you have a separate bar to do chins do you?

Duck's hoop

RidleyRider wrote: »

So you have a separate bar to do chins do you?

No.

Thread is about chins. Titled thusly. You started talking about pull ups and lat activation and more about pull ups.


That's a different exercise / movement / whatever.

househero

dylbert wrote: »

Don't know if it's been mentioned in this thread yet but when practicing chins it's best not to.go to failure.

Its a good point. But I think 1 is his failure point at the moment.

If he wants to look like a football player he should continue to punish himself with cardio. If he wants to look like a rugby player, he needs to stop eating his muscles with cardio and start lifting bigger. My money is on his diet being dirt too, no where near enough protein and way too many carbs.

It sounds like he can only lift half of his body weight. If he's new to weight lifting, he can lift more, its a technique issue. Scooby on YouTube can help there.

MikeC101

http://zachdechant.wordpress.com/2011/02/10/pull-ups-or-chin-ups/

Thought people might find this interesting - study on muscle activation on different types of pull up. Surprisingly little difference. Personally I find neutral grip pull ups way more comfortable and easier on my shoulders.

househero

Duck's hoop wrote: »

No.

Thread is about chins. Titled thusly. You started talking about pull ups and lat activation and more about pull ups.


That's a different exercise / movement / whatever.

Probably don't need to be so specific duck, if he's asking about how to work out his biceps, he's probably not being so accurate with his chin up description either. Chin ups/pull ups wide/narrow grips or alternating all work the same major muscle group, the minor groups are different, but different parts of your traps will always be engaged.

RidleyRider

Duck's hoop wrote: »

No.

Thread is about chins. Titled thusly. You started talking about pull ups and lat activation and more about pull ups.


That's a different exercise / movement / whatever.

I was talking about how easy it was for me to fit pull ups into my routine more by doing them while squatting.

I didn't talk about any activation in my post about pull ups. It was merely a suggestion for the poster who said they only trained chins once a week.

My point was, train chins with squats.

househero

If you can do pull ups after squats your not training your legs properly. Legs are a HUGE muscle group that should make you feel sick/weak if your training hard (progressing) there's no point in ticking off exercises from a list, your in the gym to build muscle.

Chin ups/pull ups should be done with back exercises. Not legs.

cruasder777

Mongo wrote: »

How's everyone?

I've been joined a gym for about 6 months now and at first just used it for cardio workouts and I'm much fitter now. Recently I've started lifting weights (shoulder press, chest press etc). I've tried to do chin ups but I struggle big time. Any tips on improving in this area? I'm quite heavy so I suppose that is holding me back?

Cheers for the help

First find a big crane then

Learn from a master of chin ups

2 mins 40secs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6divyNPlzo#t=125

RidleyRider

househero wrote: »

If you can do pull ups after squats your not training your legs properly. Legs are a HUGE muscle group that should make you feel sick/weak if your training hard (progressing) there's no point in ticking off exercises from a list, your in the gym to build muscle.

Chin ups/pull ups should be done with back exercises. Not legs.

Not true. Some people train off an A1, A2 sort of system. Then B1 B2 and B3 might be assistances to A's and C's could be isolation work- core, pushdowns etc..

Take 45sec before doing pull ups, what's the problem? It's just a superset.

househero

RidleyRider wrote: »

Not true. Some people train off an A1, A2 sort of system. Then B1 B2 and B3 might be assistances to A's and C's could be isolation work- core, pushdowns etc..

Take 45sec before doing pull ups, what's the problem? It's just a superset.

Your right, some people do train opposing muscle groups together, but traps and legs are not opposit. You might find that your body reacts better to separating your routine into core groups. Legs and back are the two biggest muscle groups, bigger than chest, arms or shoulder and core. You are training both on the same day, stimulating growth is much more productive than inducing fatigue which will actually reduce progress.

Also super sets should really only be done no more than one week out of three for each muscle group to reduce the risk of injury. Maybe you can perform pull ups because you are not squatting to your full range or to your optimum weight. I'm 6ft 96kg and I comfortably squat 160kg (comfortably short of my max) 3 sets of 8 for three different foot positions (9 sets of 8 in total) to hit different muscle groups and finish with a cool down set on the leg press, extension and calf exercises to complete my workout. Squats are rarely done right, there's too much emphasis on upper body, people often train legs only once a week, if that. But what people fail to realise is your body will only grow bigger if large muscle groups like legs are trained. Want bigger traps? Stop supersetting on leg days with trap exercises and start pushing hard on squats. Or maybe what your doing works really well for you and you see good progress.