€490m meant for local services diverted to Irish Water

donegal__road

Finance Minister Michael Noonan has admitted that €490m meant for local services is to be diverted into Irish Water.

Mr Noonan said a “subvention” was being made from the local government fund to go to the water metering company.

He said Revenue collects the money and the total property tax returns are then transferred to the Local Government Fund for services.

People Before Profit TD Richard Boyd Barrett said proceeds from the property tax were being used to set up Irish Water. “The Government, in levying this unpopular, regressive austerity tax, tried to neutralise opposition to it by saying that all the moneys collected would go back into local areas and services,” said Mr Boyd Barrett. “We then discovered not a single cent would go towards local services, but would be used to meet the start-up costs of Irish Water.”

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/490m-meant-for-local-services-diverted-to-irish-water-255608.html











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wretcheddomain

And what's your opinion OP?

Wossack

I appreciate the effort, but you know I could just go to irishexaminer myself and cut out the middleman?

skywalker

So their using the proceeds of one unpopular stealth tax to fund the introduction another unpopular stealth tax.

I hope fine gael are wiped out at the next election. Not that it will matter to the current crop at the top of the party, who will all be retired off to Europe or a few cushy board jobs. They have nothing to offer the people of Ireland.

melekalikimaka

skywalker wrote: »

So their using the proceeds of one unpopular stealth tax to fund the introduction another unpopular stealth tax.

I hope fine gael are wiped out at the next election. Not that it will matter to the current crop at the top of the party, who will all be retired off to Europe or a few cushy board jobs. They have nothing to offer the people of Ireland.

rabble rabble

stealth

rabble rabble

crooks

LOSTfan57

wait does this actually suprise people

Filibuster

I think we should live in a socialist utopia where the government takes care of us and provides all our services and asks for no taxes

I am currently looking at the water guys "digging" up my road. No word of a lie but this is what i heard this morning.


DAMO !!

DAMO !!!!!!

DAMO YA BLEEDEN CORNFLAKE

WHAT DO YOU WANT ON YOUR BREAKFAST ROLL ?

SAUSAGE, EGG RASHER AND RED SAUCE

WERE IS DECO ?

HE IS TAKIN A PISS

LeinsterDub

Deleted User wrote: »

I am currently looking at the water guys "digging" up my road. No word of a lie but this is what i heard this morning.


DAMO !!

DAMO !!!!!!

DAMO YA BLEEDEN CORNFLAKE

WHAT DO YOU WANT ON YOUR BREAKFAST ROLL ?

SAUSAGE, EGG RASHER AND RED SAUCE

WERE IS DECO ?

HE IS TAKIN A PISS

Shock horror , road workers eat and piss . Hold the front page of the herald

Cantona's Collars

Filibuster wrote: »

I think we should live in a socialist utopia where the government takes care of us and provides all our services and asks for no taxes

I think we should live in a country where the government doesn't introduce one form of tax then use the proceeds to fund the setting up another form of taxation.

The government conned us plain and simple.They sent out glossy brochures of wonderful parks and smiling people to show what the property tax would be spent on.I went for a walk earlier,dodged potholes crossing the roads,struggled along decrepit footpaths covered in dogshit.Of course there's no money to pay for these issues to be addressed,why would there be when over €400 million was diverted to Irish Water.:mad: FFS,they spent €20k just to redesign the existing logo.

steddyeddy

melekalikimaka wrote: »

rabble rabble

stealth

rabble rabble

crooks

This crap will keep happening because of attitudes like these. Downplaying any hint of corruption or illegality. Reminds me of the pigs from animal farm.

Cantona's Collars

steddyeddy wrote: »

This crap will keep happening because of attitudes like these. Downplaying any hint of corruption or illegality. Reminds me of the pigs from animal farm.

Most of the people on here who dismiss the outrage at what's happening in this country are still living under the wing of mummy & daddy and are sheltered to a degree from the real world.Wait until they are faced with all these bills coming through the door addressed to them,then they'll sing a different tune.

suicide_circus

more of the same. grubby irish politics.

token56

Nothing surprising about this really. When was the last time a newly introduced tax actually went towards the services we were told it would go towards. Ultimately is just shows we really can't trust anything that is said in the Dail. Politicians are masters of being non committal when answering questions, and then when they go and commit to something, that changes without any possibility of reprimand or reprieve. There is so much wrong with politics in this country its impossible to know where to even start.

tritium

We all knew the LPT was a scam that was never actually going to be used as claimed. Is this really a surprise. A better question would be why isn't the money repayable down the line given that its effectively seed capital for what will certainly be a profit making entity

Cantona's Collars

https://scontent-b-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/1511237_10151896571927129_1717403546_n.jpg

force eleven

Noonan is still basking in the triumph of being best boy in class, amongst his European elite. He is on a mission, called Austerity II. His bosses in Brussels applaud this type of regressive, unfair, fund movements.
Of course, they put out pious statements saying how much this will save in five years or whatever, when they really haven't a notion.

humanji

zerks wrote: »

Most of the people on here who dismiss the outrage at what's happening in this country are still living under the wing of mummy & daddy and are sheltered to a degree from the real world.Wait until they are faced with all these bills coming through the door addressed to them,then they'll sing a different tune.

Stop making swipes at people or find a new forum to post on.

tayto lover

melekalikimaka wrote: »

rabble rabble

stealth

rabble rabble

crooks

Poor effort.
I think some people would actually follow them over a cliff.

They lied as you know.

YFlyer

zerks wrote: »

Most of the people on here who dismiss the outrage at what's happening in this country are still living under the wing of mummy & daddy and are sheltered to a degree from the real world.Wait until they are faced with all these bills coming through the door addressed to them,then they'll sing a different tune.

Well said.

Knob Longman

tritium wrote: »

We all knew the LPT was a scam that was never actually going to be used as claimed. Is this really a surprise. A better question would be why isn't the money repayable down the line given that its effectively seed capital for what will certainly be a profit making entity

Its the people who pay are the problem, No backbone whatsoever..Everyone in politics knows this so the gravy train keeps rolling..

Tiddlypeeps

This on top of the whole consultants pay thing makes me very very sad. It doesn't surprise me, but that doesn't change the fact that it's very depressing. I don't think we will ever see the back of cronyism in this country

Cienciano

Filibuster wrote: »

I think we should live in a socialist utopia where the government takes care of us and provides all our services and asks for no taxes

Funny that the government could afford to pay for these services from other forms of taxation before they decided to pay off bondholders

Austerity. Regressive. Stealth. The new Shaving Experience from Gillette.

Victor

donegal__road wrote: »

€490m meant for local services diverted to Irish Water

And water is a local service, delivered by local government. The only difference this year is that Irish Water will be imposing some standards, possibly centralising purchasing and will be managing the funding.

In 2010 water services cost about X, in 2011 water services cost about X, in 2012 water services cost about X, in 2013 water services cost about X, in 2014 water services will cost about X.

The Local Property Tax isn't the only constituent of the Local Government Fund. It also includes Motor Tax. It is topped up by government grants. http://www.environ.ie/en/LocalGovernment/LocalGovernmentAdministration/LocalGovernmentFinance/

The main sources of local authority current income are:
* Commercial rates
* Local Government Fund – General-Purpose Grants
* Government grants/subsidies
* Receipts for goods and services

In 2013 local government spending was budgeted at €4,356 million. Local Property Tax yield in 2013 is estimated at €250 million.

I think the disingenuousness of the OP is proved by them failing to to even comment on the article.

Phill Ewinn

Victor wrote: »

And water is a local service, delivered by local government. The only difference this year is that Irish Water will be imposing some standards, possibly centralising purchasing and will be managing the funding.

In 2010 water services cost about X, in 2011 water services cost about X, in 2012 water services cost about X, in 2013 water services cost about X, in 2014 water services will cost about X.

The Local Property Tax isn't the only constituent of the Local Government Fund. It also includes Motor Tax. It is topped up by government grants. http://www.environ.ie/en/LocalGovernment/LocalGovernmentAdministration/LocalGovernmentFinance/

The main sources of local authority current income are:
* Commercial rates
* Local Government Fund – General-Purpose Grants
* Government grants/subsidies
* Receipts for goods and services

In 2013 local government spending was budgeted at €4,356 million. Local Property Tax yield in 2013 is estimated at €250 million.

I think the disingenuousness of the OP is proved by them failing to to even comment on the article.

The problem with water charges is control. Its no longer a function of local government. Apparently, this precious natural resource is for sale.

A natioanl resource. Resold back to you by some shammers. Shammers who call the shots. And nothing you can do about it if you don't like it.

Do we want some third party unaccountable commercial entity in charge of OUR water?

Fvck no.

But for some odd reason - people like you are pushing this change upon us.

Odd.

Filibuster

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

The problem with water charges is control. Its no longer a function of local government. Apparently, this precious natural resource is for sale.

A natioanl resource. Resold back to you by some shammers. Shammers who call the shots. And nothing you can do about it if you don't like it.

Do we want some third party unaccountable commercial entity in charge of OUR water?

Fvck no.

But for some odd reason - people like you are pushing this change upon us.

Odd.

It's a natural resource that has to be filtered, chemically treated and piped. If you don't want to pay for it, put a bucket outside your house and collect your own water.

Phill Ewinn

Filibuster wrote: »

It's a natural resource that has to be filtered, chemically treated and piped. If you don't want to pay for it, put a bucket outside your house and collect your own water.

I AM paying for it. I don't need to pay for it twice.

Do you believe every other sh1thead with ploitical friends is entitled to put his hand in your pocket?

Daith

Filibuster wrote: »

It's a natural resource that has to be filtered, chemically treated and piped. If you don't want to pay for it, put a bucket outside your house and collect your own water.

Ok I do understand this but are you saying the Irish tax payer never contributed to the water treatment before?

Victor

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

Apparently, this precious natural resource is for sale.

So precious and important that people won't pay to ensure it is clean to a proper standard? That those who waste this precious resource will be free to continue?

Do we want some third party unaccountable commercial entity in charge of OUR water?

You would prefer the polluted tap water that is provided to 200,000 people at the moment?

people like you are pushing this change upon us.

Am I? I'm merely pointing the misinformation and hysteria.

Phill Ewinn

Victor wrote: »

So precious and important that people won't pay to ensure it is clean to a proper standard? That those who waste this precious resource will be free to continue?

You would prefer the polluted tap water that is provided to 200,000 people at the moment?

Am I? I'm merely pointing the misinformation and hysteria.

Oh here we go. Charging for it twice. That'll solve everything. Do you realise the same people Will work in the same company doing yhe same job as before?

Doing the same thing.and expecting a different result. Isn't that the first sign of madness?

Phoebas

Cienciano wrote: »

Funny that the government could afford to pay for these services from other forms of taxation before they decided to pay off bondholders

We've been running a massive deficit for the last few years. Before that we were living in an unsustainable bubble funded by property related taxes.

We haven't been able to 'afford' these services for a long time.

Phill Ewinn

Phoebas wrote: »

We've been running a massive deficit for the last few years. Before that we were living in an unsustainable bubble funded by property related taxes.

We haven't been able to 'afford' these services for a long time.

And now we have an "extra" €480m to just throw at metering.

Was the problem metering? No.

Do the Arabs need fvxking sand meters? No.

Likewise with us.

Daith

Phoebas wrote: »

We've been running a massive deficit for the last few years. Before that we were living in an unsustainable bubble funded by property related taxes.

We haven't been able to 'afford' these services for a long time.

Is that down to funding or mismanagement of the services though? We've seen public bodies and semi state bodies squander money (the Poolbeg incinerator is just one that comes to mind).

Now we have Irish Water who are paying bonuses to their staff all funded by the taxpayer in some way. In a monopoly.

I don't doubt that we need to pay for water but I do doubt whether it is a genuine deficit or general incompetence and the tax payer is paying for it.

Not to mention no one can give an answer whether people who's drinking water is unsuitable will get it treated properly.

Phoebas

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

And now we have an "extra" €480m to just throw at metering.

Was the problem metering? No.

Do the Arabs need fvxking sand meters? No.

Likewise with us.

The lack of metering is part of the problem with the water supply.
Metering will help to address two big issues.
1. Conservation - charging by usage will encourage conservation.
2. Leakage - measuring usage helps to locate where the leaks are.

I'm afraid I didn't quite understand the Arabs/sand point.

Phill Ewinn

Phoebas wrote: »

The lack of metering is part of the problem with the water supply.
Metering will help to address two big issues.
1. Conservation - charging by usage will encourage conservation.
2. Leakage - measuring usage helps to locate where the leaks are.

I'm afraid I didn't quite understand the Arabs/sand point.

Conservation? You pulling my leg?

Processing and storage maybe, maybe. Conservation. Jesus wept!

Victor

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

And now we have an "extra" €480m to just throw at metering.

You seem to be confused. The €490m is to run (and expand) the entire system for the year. Metering is only a small part of that.

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

Conservation? You pulling my leg?

Processing and storage maybe, maybe. Conservation. Jesus wept!

If 25% of your natural gas was venting to the air through leaks, would you not try to find those leaks? That is what conservation means.

Phoebas

Daith wrote: »

Is that down to funding or mismanagement of the services though?

Down to mismanagement of the entire economy I'd say.

Cookie_Monster

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

Conservation? You pulling my leg?

Processing and storage maybe, maybe. Conservation. Jesus wept!

you do know treating water is not free right, and has a substantial cost in provision, a cost which increases with volume?

Daith

Phoebas wrote: »

Down to mismanagement of the entire economy I'd say.

It's ok though now isn't? I mean property prices are going up now!

Daith

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

you do know treating water is not free right, and has a substantial cost in provision, a cost which increases with volume?

This is the point no? Where the tax payer not paying for the treatment before anyway? Are we paying the same taxes for the treatment and the Irish water bill?

Phoebas

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

Conservation? You pulling my leg?

Processing and storage maybe, maybe. Conservation. Jesus wept!

Again, I don't understand your point. Why do you think I'm joking about water conservation?

I'm also not sure by how you feel metering will help with processing and storage, but maybe there's a benefit I haven't thought of.

Phoebas

Daith wrote: »

It's ok though now isn't? I mean property prices are going up now!

I wouldn't think that rising property prices are a sign of good management of the economy

Victor

Daith wrote: »

This is the point no? Where the tax payer not paying for the treatment before anyway?

No, we were paying part of the bill and bondholders were paying the rest.

Cookie_Monster

Daith wrote: »

This is the point no? Where the tax payer not paying for the treatment before anyway? Are we paying the same taxes for the treatment and the Irish water bill?

So we can just waste it regardless and incur higher costs just because 'we already pay for it'?

regardless of whether its paid for out of tax or user charges, why should the aim not be to reduce unnecessary usage and hence cost to provide?

Daith

Phoebas wrote: »

I wouldn't think that rising property prices are a sign of good management of the economy

It's more the Irish mentality that rising property prices means the economy is recovery but off topic

Daith

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

So we can just waste it regardless and incur higher costs just because 'we already pay for it'?

regardless of whether its paid for out of tax or user charges, why should the aim not be to reduce unnecessary usage and hence cost to provide?

The issue for me is that we are still paying the same tax and the Irish water charge. Your use of "whether" is the clincher.

Likewise if the public bodies didn't waste large sums of money would we need this?

I agree with conserving water and that costs are necessary but can see why it's a double tax and people are paying for it twice.

If the money from our taxes is going to something else instead yeah sure but we never have that level of transparency.

Phoebas

Daith wrote: »

This is the point no? Where the tax payer not paying for the treatment before anyway? Are we paying the same taxes for the treatment and the Irish water bill?

We've been running a huge deficit for years now and before that bug chunks of our services were funded by unsustainable boom era property based taxation. Even before that we haven't been putting proper investment into the water infrastructure.
So we really haven't been paying the full cost for treatment for a long time now.

Daith

Phoebas wrote: »

We've been running a huge deficit for years now and before that bug chunks of our services were funded by unsustainable boom era property based taxation. Even before that we haven't been putting proper investment into the water infrastructure.
So we really haven't been paying the full cost for treatment for a long time now.

Again it goes to my point that it could be general mismanagement of public funds leading to this.

Phoebas

Daith wrote: »

Again it goes to my point that it could be general mismanagement of public funds leading to this.

'general mismanagement of public funds' is a very broad term so I suppose it could be used to explain part of the problem.
I tend to think that the problems with water are more down to lack of strategic planning (over decades), but this could also be attributed to 'general mismanagement'.

gotBass

Paying for the water is unavoidable.
In a few years we will have water routed from the Shannon in Dublin area. Who will pay , not government because they will want ppp to soften the cost upfront. So theyes are going to privatise the water eventually by having "drought type events" then say it'll cost a fortune, then we can get it done with private help, because EU project money is drying up. Next thing you know our water charges are 1k per year on average and the agency in charge answers to nobody. Oh but the good news is that some people well get transferred to cushy numbers and some higher political types will get directorship, will Service improve only my some internal managers kpi. Pucker up people this is going to hurt.