Entitlements

just do it

20silkcut wrote: »

Would it be correct to say that the lower the value of your entitlements the better?

This looks like a win win situation for big farmers who had way more land than entitlements.

Yes, but only if they declared all that land in 2013.

Username John

paddysdream wrote: »

Divided by the number of hectares farmed in 2013 or 2015 ,whichever is the lesser.

Hmmm....
So this mean I get the same SFP amount in 2015, even if I don't claim the same number of hectares?

Say I decided to let half the farm in 2015 - the average value of my entitlements in 2015 would increase to offset the reduced number of entitlements claimed?

Is this right?

bob charles

paddysdream wrote: »

(disregarding greening as 99% of Irish farmers will qualify)

:rolleyes:

paddysdream

Username John wrote: »

Hmmm....
So this mean I get the same SFP amount in 2015, even if I don't claim the same number of hectares?

Say I decided to let half the farm in 2015 - the average value of my entitlements in 2015 would increase to offset the reduced number of entitlements claimed?

Is this right?

Think so but as I said ,ask a professional.

By the way doubling the value of your entitlements might not be the smartest thing to do in certain circumstances eg presently at 300= very little cuts;double to 600=nice little cut by 2019.presently at 150=slight increase till 2019;double to 300=prob. minor cut but def. no increase.

Username John

paddysdream wrote: »

By the way doubling the value of your entitlements might not be the smartest thing to do in certain circumstances eg presently at 300= very little cuts;double to 600=nice little cut by 2019.presently at 150=slight increase till 2019;double to 300=prob. minor cut but def. no increase.

Thanks Paddy.

As for the doubling 300euro entitlements... No worries about that here.... ;)B:p

paddysdream

bob charles wrote: »

:rolleyes:

?

Once 75% of your land farmed is in permanent pasture (in grass 5 or more years;reseeding direct from grass to grass doesn't affect it) then thats about it for stock farmers.

Tillage wise its two distinct crops once you exceed 5(?) hectares and 3 once you grow more than 15 hectares.As winter and spring barley or winter and spring wheat are considered seperate crops then don't see any major difficulty with this one.Most tillage farms have(at least around here) a mixture of spring and winter plus oilseed rape or a small bit of beet.Think its 75% max of any one crop plus 20% max of the second.

Only bit that might cause a problem is the proposed 5% set aside (not called that but its the same idea).Think though you can count hedges ,watercourses etc etc in for this.

Can't see any of the above being a major obstacle to the vast majority of farmers.

As greening makes up 30% of your total SFP in the future then its prob. worth collecting(well in my case anyways!)

FORD 4000

what is 'greening'?

paddysdream

FORD 4000 wrote: »

what is 'greening'?

A load of sh**e

Seriously though, its a move from our wise masters and overlords in Brussels to ,in their own peculiar way,try and limit the practice of monoculture .Or so they tell us.

Think its just a bit put in to please some lobby or other and justify someones job and leave the budget easier to pass through the european parliament

One of those things that looks good when spoken about at meetings,seminars etc etc but in reality means f**k all to the vast majority of farmers,both here and in europe.

Looks and sounds good when politicians ,farm leaders et al. can stand up and say "well 30% of the money Irish farmers are getting is claimed under greening measures.Makes all those urban right on types feel a little better about where their cheap food is coming from.

The actual affect on farmers is as in my last post ie for most it will be a box ticking exercise till at least 2019.Maybe after that (doesn't it always?) leeway will be lost,extra measures needed to qualify will be introduced and it will just be one more pain in the a**.

Thats it;pi**ing down here all evening;no sheep lambing tonight;me off for a pint and a bit of poker.

GrandSoftDay

paddysdream wrote: »

A load of sh**e

Seriously though, its a move from our wise masters and overlords in Brussels to ,in their own peculiar way,try and limit the practice of monoculture .Or so they tell us.

Think its just a bit put in to please some lobby or other and justify someones job and leave the budget easier to pass through the european parliament

One of those things that looks good when spoken about at meetings,seminars etc etc but in reality means f**k all to the vast majority of farmers,both here and in europe.

Looks and sounds good when politicians ,farm leaders et al. can stand up and say "well 30% of the money Irish farmers are getting is claimed under greening measures.Makes all those urban right on types feel a little better about where their cheap food is coming from.

The actual affect on farmers is as in my last post ie for most it will be a box ticking exercise till at least 2019.Maybe after that (doesn't it always?) leeway will be lost,extra measures needed to qualify will be introduced and it will just be one more pain in the a**.

Thats it;pi**ing down here all evening;no sheep lambing tonight;me off for a pint and a bit of poker.

Summed up all my thoughts in that post!!

benjydagg

paddysdream wrote: »

According to the paper its either the sum of money drawn(ie the actual cheque you will receive) in 2014 OR the value of entitlements you own (used/unused/leased?) in 2014 less the budget cut,less the cuts for national reserve,young farmers,protien crops etc(about 8% or so I think)plus add in the sheep grassland (gross or net?Coveney wouldn't say) if you get it;divided by the number of hectares farmed in 2013 or 2015 ,whichever is the lesser.

No decision made yet(that we have been told about!) as to whether its gonna be the value of entitlements owned or the sum of money drawn down which will be the basis for calculation.Won't matter to anyone who is using all their entitlements and have none leased in or out.Also he seems to be wavering on whether to include the sheep grassland money(bad idea in my opinion) or let the scheme,or something similar, run for the next 5 years.

So ,in a nutshell,yes entitlement values will be averaged.

Simple example;

50 hectares farmed in 2013 2014 and 2015;
25 entitlements at 200 and 20 at 450 (all net ie what you get after modulation etc)5 hectares with nothing on them.
Total value is 14000
Take off 8% approx ie 1120
Start with 12880 in 2015(disregarding greening as 99% of Irish farmers will qualify)
So then its 12880 divided by 50 hectares to give you your new starting point of 257 euro approx(bang on the national average).No cuts for this fella so!

Thats how I understand it anyways but ask a professional to be safe!!

Reliable rumour now that ALL entitlement paper values will be reduced by 10% in the next few weeks.
NO transfers of entitlements can be processed by DAFM until the new values are put in place.

So here we are, online applications opening within a few days, and we haven't got a roadmap for 2014 yet.

benjydagg

paddysdream wrote: »

A load of sh**e

Seriously though, its a move from our wise masters and overlords in Brussels to ,in their own peculiar way,try and limit the practice of monoculture .Or so they tell us.

Think its just a bit put in to please some lobby or other and justify someones job and leave the budget easier to pass through the european parliament

One of those things that looks good when spoken about at meetings,seminars etc etc but in reality means f**k all to the vast majority of farmers,both here and in europe.

Looks and sounds good when politicians ,farm leaders et al. can stand up and say "well 30% of the money Irish farmers are getting is claimed under greening measures.Makes all those urban right on types feel a little better about where their cheap food is coming from.

The actual affect on farmers is as in my last post ie for most it will be a box ticking exercise till at least 2019.Maybe after that (doesn't it always?) leeway will be lost,extra measures needed to qualify will be introduced and it will just be one more pain in the a**.

Thats it;pi**ing down here all evening;no sheep lambing tonight;me off for a pint and a bit of poker.

So how did the poker go?

coolshannagh28

benjydagg wrote: »

So how did the poker go?

The entitlement trade has got like poker!

benjydagg

coolshannagh28 wrote: »

The entitlement trade has got like poker!

It has.
€1,553/ha were asking 3.5 times 10 days ago.
Deduct the 10% = €1,397/ha. That brings the cost of the entitlement to 3.89 times. Add auctioneers fees, and the cost of the entitlement exceeds 4 times value (€1,397).

And the funny thing is, it could make great financial sense for certain farmers with very low entitlements to buy some of these.

paddysdream

benjydagg wrote: »

So how did the poker go?

Same old ,same old.Win some ,lose some ,same as farming really.

In all honesty just a friendly game for 5 or 6 of us of a Friday night in the local that we have had for as long as we are going there.

nashmach

paddysdream wrote: »

A load of sh**e

Seriously though, its a move from our wise masters and overlords in Brussels to ,in their own peculiar way,try and limit the practice of monoculture .Or so they tell us.

Think its just a bit put in to please some lobby or other and justify someones job and leave the budget easier to pass through the european parliament

One of those things that looks good when spoken about at meetings,seminars etc etc but in reality means f**k all to the vast majority of farmers,both here and in europe.

Looks and sounds good when politicians ,farm leaders et al. can stand up and say "well 30% of the money Irish farmers are getting is claimed under greening measures.Makes all those urban right on types feel a little better about where their cheap food is coming from.

The actual affect on farmers is as in my last post ie for most it will be a box ticking exercise till at least 2019.Maybe after that (doesn't it always?) leeway will be lost,extra measures needed to qualify will be introduced and it will just be one more pain in the a**.

Thats it;pi**ing down here all evening;no sheep lambing tonight;me off for a pint and a bit of poker.

All well and good but certainly around here most would be 50/50 down to 70/30 in favour of grass but now get hit with this codswallop which is really just for all tillage men!

I hope that the first 25% will help a person's case and all they have to do is gain points with ditches and hedges for the remainder to claim the greening. Seems nonsensical for someone with 26% tillage to have to have setaside and the neighbour with 24% to get away!

just do it

benjydagg wrote: »

It has.
€1,553/ha were asking 3.5 times 10 days ago.
Deduct the 10% = €1,397/ha. That brings the cost of the entitlement to 3.89 times. Add auctioneers fees, and the cost of the entitlement exceeds 4 times value (€1,397).

And the funny thing is, it could make great financial sense for certain farmers with very low entitlements to buy some of these.

I'm doubtful, can you outline such a scenario.

benjydagg

just do it wrote: »

I'm doubtful, can you outline such a scenario.

I'm only guesstimating but;

Sheep farmer 40 ha x €70/ha = €2,800
WITH NO CHANGE THE PAYMENT AUTOMATICALLY RISES TO 40 x €149 in 2019 (€5960). TOTAL AMOUNT FOR 6 YEARS APPROX €27,800

OR;

Buys 5 x €1300 Total, (sell 5 x €70??)
Claims 40ha in 2014.
5 x €1300 + 35 x €70 = €8,900 Average entitlement value will be €223/ha.
Minimal (4%) deductions up to 2019.
The cost is roughly €26,000... The return is €8,900 x 6 years = €53,400
DEDUCT €26,000 = €27.400.......

So on the above figures, it wouldn't make sense to buy.:eek::eek::eek:

peteryoungifj@eircom.net will have a better view on Thursday.

The above is just my doodling with numbers. Please don't sue..

just do it

Isn't there something about a % of the entitlements you buy going to the national reserve? Also high value entitlements often have vat on top. Also you haven't factored in tax (makes a big difference especially at the higher rate), and % deduction in 2015 onwards for young farmers and national reserve.

rancher

benjydagg wrote: »

I'm only guesstimating but;

Sheep farmer 40 ha x €70/ha = €2,800
WITH NO CHANGE THE PAYMENT AUTOMATICALLY RISES TO 40 x €149 in 2019 (€5960). TOTAL AMOUNT FOR 6 YEARS APPROX €27,800

OR;

Buys 5 x €1300 Total, (sell 5 x €70??)
Claims 40ha in 2014.
5 x €1300 + 35 x €70 = €8,900 Average entitlement value will be €223/ha.
Minimal (4%) deductions up to 2019.
The cost is roughly €26,000... The return is €8,900 x 6 years = €53,400
DEDUCT €26,000 = €27.400.......

So on the above figures, it wouldn't make sense to buy.:eek::eek::eek:

peteryoungifj@eircom.net will have a better view on Thursday.

The above is just my doodling with numbers. Please don't sue..

Havent checked your calculation, but you'd need the money in the bank, not borrowed.
26000 for five years would be about...€6000/yr repayments.. haven't looked up anything so just guessing
What would you have to earn to have six grand after tax...8 grand,
Economics shaky now I think
but you'd be away if rolled over in 2020

benjydagg

just do it wrote: »

Isn't there something about a % of the entitlements you buy going to the national reserve? Also high value entitlements often have vat on top. Also you haven't factored in tax (makes a big difference especially at the higher rate), and % deduction in 2015 onwards for young farmers and national reserve.

All factored in as per page 8 of farmer's journal.

Tax is payable on all profits.

I didn't mention that purchasing entitlements via a stocking loan/overdraft would make the interest allowable against tax.

Banks DO lend for such investments.

coolshannagh28

The reform has been carefully structured to discourage land grabs and speculative entitlement trading , I have traded in the past and also hedged against the changes in CAP however I would tread carefully at the minute as all pertinent information is not out yet, Coveney can still amend the criteria and it all has to pass EU scrutiny.

benjydagg

rancher wrote: »

Havent checked your calculation, but you'd need the money in the bank, not borrowed.
26000 for five years would be about...€6000/yr repayments.. haven't looked up anything so just guessing
What would you have to earn to have six grand after tax...8 grand,
Economics shaky now I think
but you'd be away if rolled over in 2020

Try the figures for your own system.

You may be surprised. Or not.

I sold sucklers to fund mine. Saving money by not having those bovines around the place, and a guaranteed income from SFP. And of course it rolls over in 2020. Reducing gradually to 2028.

paddysdream

benjydagg wrote: »

Try the figures for your own system.

You may be surprised. Or not.

I sold sucklers to fund mine. Saving money by not having those bovines around the place, and a guaranteed income from SFP. And of course it rolls over in 2020. Reducing gradually to 2028.

Are you sure about a roll over in 2020? Def. the policy is heading towards a flat rate (national if not european )by 2028 so reductions post 2020 could be severe.

benjydagg

paddysdream wrote: »

Are you sure about a roll over in 2020? Def. the policy is heading towards a flat rate (national if not european )by 2028 so reductions post 2020 could be severe.

No one is sure about anything at the moment, tread carefully as already stated.

I wouldn't be buying something in 2014, to hope for a roll over in 2020.

There are 5 years in the new scheme.

I'm working on the basis that the highest value entitlements in 2019 will be €700/ha FACT.

The maximum payment will be capped at €140,000 FACT
The lesser of the HA claimed in 2013 OR 2015 will determine the amount of entitlements you have, we are told, but not written in stone yet.
The amount of money claimed/paid (?) will be what you take forward into 2015. Still to be clarified.

Some feckin rain falling now. No slurry going out tomorrow......

Conmaicne Mara

Piece on entitlements in Farming Indo today.

rancher

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

Piece on entitlements in Farming Indo today.

And I think what it says about buying entitlements what I was trying to say yesterday

Conmaicne Mara

rancher wrote: »

And I think what it says about buying entitlements what I was trying to say yesterday

Wasn't following hugely closely tbh, one comment I did agree with was would have to buy with cash, borrowing would be too risky

benjydagg

rancher wrote: »

And I think what it says about buying entitlements what I was trying to say yesterday

True, but see what he says about naked acres. There will be lads that can increase their payment by purchasing.

just do it

benjydagg wrote: »

So on the above figures, it wouldn't make sense to buy.:eek::eek::eek:

peteryoungifj@eircom.net will have a better view on Thursday.

Agree. I stuck your example into a spreadsheet and even with a lower purchase
cost of €22,825 for those 5 entitlements over the 6 years he'd be €700 worse off. If he pays tax on lower rate he'll be down €7,777. On the higher rate he'd be down €12,200.

Auctioneers are laughing. Ultimately it comes down to the purchase price multiple and your tax rate as to whether it's worth buying.

just do it

It'll be interesting to see py's article later