Season 4 discussion *People that HAVE read the books*

Just over 3 months to go now. We've also been discussing the season in the Winds of Winter thread so thought it might be suited elsewhere.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZY43QSx3Fk

What are you all looking forward the most to this season from what you've read in the books? No doubt there will be changes like previous seasons to the overall story and from the trailer it looks to be very much the case in many areas.

So much to look forward to but for me the scene with Tyrion & Tywin is sure to cause a reaction from people who have not read the books & it's the one scene I've been waiting to see since reading the books even more so then the Red Wedding.

"But the stink that filled the privy gave ample evidence that the oft-repeated jape about his father was just another lie. Lord Tywin Lannister did not, in the end, **** gold.

Hoping there is a quote to suit this brilliant line from the quote after Tyrion does the deed.

GhostInTheRuins

Deleted User wrote: »

So much to look forward to but for me the scene with Tyrion & Tywin is sure to cause a reaction from people who have not read the books & it's the one scene I've been waiting to see since reading the books even more so then the Red Wedding.

"But the stink that filled the privy gave ample evidence that the oft-repeated jape about his father was just another lie. Lord Tywin Lannister did not, in the end, **** gold.

Hoping there is a quote to suit this brilliant line from the quote after Tyrion does the deed.

Yeah that'll be a great moment! I have a feeling they'll change that story slightly though.

It's been a long time since I've read the books, but wasn't Tyrion's discovery that Tysha wasn't actually a whore his main motivation for killing Tywin? The back story might be difficult to convey on the show, but we know that show Tywin hates Tyrion and his prostitutes. So I think Tywin will find out about Shae and have her killed giving Tyrion his motivation.

Unfortunately that'll mean Tyrion won't get his sweet, sweet revenge on Shae.

I could be wrong but that's my theory on what'll happen on the show!

Mr.Prodston

The one thing I want is for the whole "Shae" story to play out like it did in the books. If they change that then they'll kill so much of the shock and awe that I personally had when reading it.

The betrayal of both Tywin and Shae towards Tyrion just got me right in the gut. This will be bigger than the Red Wedding, as Charles Dance is pure awesome on top of everything else.

Sleepy

Yeah, I'll be annoyed if Shae doesn't betray Tyrion too... Without it we'll never get him in the depressed "where do whores go?" mode which is a fascinating downward spiral for someone who's such lively character earlier in the series (and one, we must presume he'll have a redemption arc from via Danaerys and her dragons).

Mickeroo

Mr.Prodston wrote: »

The one thing I want is for the whole "Shae" story to play out like it did in the books. If they change that then they'll kill so much of the shock and awe that I personally had when reading it.

The betrayal of both Tywin and Shae towards Tyrion just got me right in the gut. This will be bigger than the Red Wedding, as Charles Dance is pure awesome on top of everything else.

I didn't really feel that bad for Shae in the book, she was clearly only with Tyrion for his wealth and wasn't a particularly interesting character, my sympahies wre all with Tyrion at that point. They went a different direction with her entirely in the show, I guess it will seem all the more tragic since she's been portrayed as a much stronger character, though I don't really buy that TV show Shae would betray Tyrion as yet.

December2012

Moon door.
Lysa Arryn.
Can of worms open.
Sansa realises it's all been little fingers fault.


Boo ya!

Jizzear

lady stoneheart needs to be episode 10 finale like in the books! better be anyways

Michelle Fairley who plays Cat is quoted as saying they wont see her again on GoT as her contract only went up until the end of Season 3. Now that could be a clever ploy to shock viewers or they could possibly cut Stoneheart out(which I doubt). If they did though it would indicate that she won't be lasting much longer in the books and something could happen after the Jaime confrontation. Interesting....

Michael D Not Higgins

Sleepy wrote: »

Yeah, I'll be annoyed if Shae doesn't betray Tyrion too... Without it we'll never get him in the depressed "where do whores go?" mode which is a fascinating downward spiral for someone who's such lively character earlier in the series (and one, we must presume he'll have a redemption arc from via Danaerys and her dragons).

I thought that was the point of him giving her the necklace last season (as there's no necklace of hands in the show). He'll use the necklace to strangle her in Tywin's bed.

username123

The Purple wedding, Tywin Vs Tyrion - although I will be sad to see Charles Dance go. I hope they do have Shae betray Tyrion, I was really shocked about that in the book.

Wonder if they will give the new Daario Naharis blue hair and a three pronged beard?

Definitely looking forward to The Vale....Petyr...oh PETYR!!!!!!

Wonder what they will do with Theon Greyjoys storyline?

Mickeroo

Deleted User wrote: »

Michelle Fairley who plays Cat is quoted as saying they wont see her again on GoT as her contract only went up until the end of Season 3. Now that could be a clever ploy to shock viewers or they could possibly cut Stoneheart out(which I doubt). If they did though it would indicate that she won't be lasting much longer in the books and something could happen after the Jaime confrontation. Interesting....

Maybe she'll be all CGI/animatronics :eek:

Sleepy

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

I thought that was the point of him giving her the necklace last season (as there's no necklace of hands in the show). He'll use the necklace to strangle her in Tywin's bed.

I noted that at the time when watching but had forgotten it! Thanks for the reminder!

Deleted User wrote: »

Michelle Fairley who plays Cat is quoted as saying they wont see her again on GoT as her contract only went up until the end of Season 3. Now that could be a clever ploy to shock viewers or they could possibly cut Stoneheart out(which I doubt). If they did though it would indicate that she won't be lasting much longer in the books and something could happen after the Jaime confrontation. Interesting....

Very much so! Perhaps Brienne will choose Jaime over her now zombified Liege Lady? Though you'd think such a big moment would be brought across in any adaptation...

ronoc 1

one of the things im looking forward to is the red viper and gregor clegane fight,it was so well done in the book that i hope the show can do it justice.that was one of the big shocks for me in the books was when viper was killed,it was so satisfying when the viper was steadily wearing down the mountain with his spear all the while insulting him at the same time,and just when he should have gone in for the kill he gets overconfident and as as far as i can remember gets his head crushed by the mountains bear hands.didnt see it coming,such a shame as he was turning out to be one of my favourite characters.

lynski

Oh mouth watering. All of the above. Mostly looking forward to seeing my Hubbies face during all if the above.

December2012

ronoc 1 wrote: »

one of the things im looking forward to is the red viper and gregor clegane fight,it was so well done in the book that i hope the show can do it justice.that was one of the big shocks for me in the books was when viper was killed,it was so satisfying when the viper was steadily wearing down the mountain with his spear all the while insulting him at the same time,and just when he should have gone in for the kill he gets overconfident and as as far as i can remember gets his head crushed by the mountains bear hands.didnt see it coming,such a shame as he was turning out to be one of my favourite characters.

It looks promising in the trailer.

December2012

lynski wrote: »

Oh mouth watering. All of the above. Mostly looking forward to seeing my Hubbies face during all if the above.

Yeah I asked my husband (who knows nothing Jon Snow apart from tv show), what he thought was happening based on the trailers.

lots of danaerys taking back Westeros and killing Tyrion, etc, so he should get his mind blown by the unexpected stories.

podgemonster

Hoping for a flashback montage similar to Littlefingers previous speech about "the climb" only showing the death of Robb, Renly, Robert, Joffery, Tywin, Ned, The viper, the Blackwater battle, red wedding while LF is talking ending with him smiling and shoving the Lysa out the moon door.

Mickeroo

ronoc 1 wrote: »

one of the things im looking forward to is the red viper and gregor clegane fight,it was so well done in the book that i hope the show can do it justice.that was one of the big shocks for me in the books was when viper was killed,it was so satisfying when the viper was steadily wearing down the mountain with his spear all the while insulting him at the same time,and just when he should have gone in for the kill he gets overconfident and as as far as i can remember gets his head crushed by the mountains bear hands.didnt see it coming,such a shame as he was turning out to be one of my favourite characters.

It was a great fight scene but was also the point where GRRM dropped the ball for me and started to get predictable.

Still cant wait to see it though.

guernica

Purple Wedding obvs.

nibtrix

December2012 wrote: »

Moon door.
Lysa Arryn.

I was reading the official production diary on HBO (I'm desperate for a fix at this stage!) and there was a post from October where they dismantled the set for the Eyrie! I'm struggling to believe that they filmed every scene that we'd be expecting, seeing as they should be using it for another couple of seasons at least?!?

Michael D Not Higgins

nibtrix wrote: »

I was reading the official production diary on HBO (I'm desperate for a fix at this stage!) and there was a post from October where they dismantled the set for the Eyrie! I'm struggling to believe that they filmed every scene that we'd be expecting, seeing as they should be using it for another couple of seasons at least?!?

Maybe it was just dismantled for storage

GhostInTheRuins

What I'm looking forward to the most is Oberyn vs the mountain. It was probably the most devastating part of the entire series for me.

"You raped her, you murdered her, you killed her children."

Crushing (figuratively and literally!)

nibtrix

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

Maybe it was just dismantled for storage

Possibly. It seems strange that it was left up all last year when it wasn't needed and that they'd take it down now, plus there are references to certain parts being "salvaged for other sets in the future".

http://www.makinggameofthrones.com/production-diary/2013/10/10/an-eyrie-comes-to-an-end.html

username123

nibtrix wrote: »

Possibly. It seems strange that it was left up all last year when it wasn't needed and that they'd take it down now, plus there are references to certain parts being "salvaged for other sets in the future".

http://www.makinggameofthrones.com/production-diary/2013/10/10/an-eyrie-comes-to-an-end.html

This stands out more for me:

it’s not unusual for our Art Department and construction team to create a set that may only last one season, or is designed specifically to be made over after the shooting of one or a small number of scenes. Some of our sets have been made over so many times, they are now in their fourth incarnation.

So presumably they are just deconstructing it until they need it again.

nibtrix

username123 wrote: »

This stands out more for me:


So presumably they are just deconstructing it until they need it again.

I think that's referring more to the fact that they re-use sets as other sets, like the Tully set became the Frey's castle for the Red Wedding. I agree it's very possible that they are just packing it up for storage, it seems a bit much to do a whole blog post on it called "An Eyrie comes to an end" though if that's the case.

I guess we'll see over the next few seasons!

December2012

Hmmm, Jamie is in kings landing - do you think this changes the Purple Wedding at all? Or the lead up / events?

Son0vagun

Will we see Penny at the wedding? Doubt it.

Paddy Cow

Deleted User wrote: »

Michelle Fairley who plays Cat is quoted as saying they wont see her again on GoT as her contract only went up until the end of Season 3. Now that could be a clever ploy to shock viewers or they could possibly cut Stoneheart out(which I doubt). If they did though it would indicate that she won't be lasting much longer in the books and something could happen after the Jaime confrontation. Interesting....

They might not need her for season 4. I don't know if you watch The Walking Dead but when they introduced Michonne at the end of season 2, it wasn't actually her. They used one of those stand-in people for getting the lighting set up properly etc. "Michonne" had a hood up with obscured her face so you didn't notice.

If Lady Stoneheart is only introduced in the last episode, they could do something similar. She can't speak and her face is all clawed, so it stands to reason that she will have a large hood.

Sleepy

Anyone else notice the similarity between Jaime's new haircut and that sported by Barristan Selmy? He looks less like Prince Charming from Shrek and more like a man of the kings guard which would match his character arc for this season nicely!

Gbear

Jizzear wrote: »

lady stoneheart needs to be episode 10 finale like in the books! better be anyways

The only problem with this is that in the books it was only the time between a third of the way through Storm of Swords 2 and the end of that book before the reveal and we also got to see Nymeria pulling Cat out of the river.

They'll need to make some effort to not make her death seem a bit cheap.
There's no reason why they can't have Arya's wolf dream and show Nymeria pulling a dead woman out of the river.

It'll be a bit of of the blue if they just pull her out of a hat at the end of the season.

The reanimation of people has always felt like a weakpoint in this story to me so the show needs to be careful with it.

TheIrishGrover

I'm looking forward to my friends' reactions to this season. It was getting a little bit predictable that episode 9 is where it's at. However once Joff bites it (In episode 2 or 3 at the latest I presume) non-readers may, hopefully, have relaxed, knowing that the big episode 9 thing is going to be the wildlings. The producers have been quite public about that.
So hopefully Tywin will be a big shock. It'll be a pity to see Charles Dance going as he was amazing in the part but ya gotta do what ya gotta do. I wonder what they will do with Shae/Tysha. In the book it was obvious that she was pretty much just using Tyrion but the TV version doe seem to say that she genuinely has feeling for him. I wonder will they cut out the whole "Wherever whores go" quest and have him just go looking for Dany. Just have Tywin kill her because she's a whore as a lesson and then Tyrion do his thing. It would simplify the story and not annoy non-book readers (even more) by having her betray him. She was a much bigger and more popular character on the show than in the book. Having said that, if any show would do it it would be Thrones. (And he has mentioned that he was married before. I thought that would raise more speculation than it did though)

I also wonder about Lady Stoneheart. It's a strand of the books I don't like. I'm just not convinced that it is necessary. I thought it was just a step too far (And I realise how stupid that sounds after accepting white walkers, dragons, Wargs, Dondarion etc). This may be sacrilegious to some but, unless her story involves more than revenge and has a bigger part in the story that cannot be altered, I wouldn't have a real problem with them leaving her out. Give her revenge story to The Blackfish.

Gbear

Doing a rewatch of the show at the moment.

Robb to Jon: "Next time I see you you'll be all in black"
Ow my feels.

TheIrishGrover

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

I also wonder about Lady Stoneheart. It's a strand of the books I don't like. I'm just not convinced that it is necessary. I thought it was just a step too far (And I realise how stupid that sounds after accepting white walkers, dragons, Wargs, Dondarion etc). This may be sacrilegious to some but, unless her story involves more than revenge and has a bigger part in the story that cannot be altered, I wouldn't have a real problem with them leaving her out. Give her revenge story to The Blackfish.

I didn't like it either because I bloody hated the Cat chapters

Son0vagun

I love Lady Stoneheart and her band of Outlaws. I only wish we got a POV chapters of them. Perhaps peoples dislike of her is because of a lack of a POV.

Mickeroo

Son0vagun wrote: »

I love Lady Stoneheart and her band of Outlaws. I only wish we got a POV chapters of them. Perhaps peoples dislike of her is because of a lack of a POV.

I don't know, people's dislike of Cat was because of her POV. I would like a brotherhood pov of some sort though.

TheIrishGrover

Mickeroo wrote: »

I don't know, people's dislike of Cat was because of her POV. I would like a brotherhood pov of some sort though.

I actually didn't have a problem with Cat's POV. I actually found her story arc to be one of the most interesting and well written. She had more dimensions than many others. She had her good points and her bad points. Her steadfast loyalty for Ned and Rob and her hatred of Jon for what he represented and her understandable weakness when she released Jamie (She had lost her husband, two sons and probably a daughter too. She had lost her other son to duty and his new wife). She was, probably, the most human and believable character in the books.

I just found the Lady Stoneheart thing a bit of a step too far into fantasy (And, as I said above, I do see the irony).

I would still love to see The Brotherhood in the series and books but, unless Martin has some pivotal point for Cat/Stoneheart, I could see them have The Blackfish join them and pursue his revenge.

I suppose they could do this in the books too. Have him turn up to The Brotherhood only to meet her.

Sleepy

I loved the brotherhood but would agree with Grover on the Lady Stoneheart thing... though I hated Kat as a character, her weakness and lack of foresight brought most of her problems after Bran's accident down upon herself, her family and the realm in general.

TheIrishGrover

Sleepy wrote: »

I loved the brotherhood but would agree with Grover on the Lady Stoneheart thing... though I hated Kat as a character, her weakness and lack of foresight brought most of her problems after Bran's accident down upon herself, her family and the realm in general.

When you look at it it's kind of like that whole famous Star Wars thing: If that Imperial gunner had blown R2D2 and C3PO's escape pod away then Luke wouldn't have seen the message, met Obi-Wan, flown off with Han and Chewie, rescued Leia, blown up the Death Star and on and on and on.

If Bran hadn't been f*cking about climbing he never would have seen Jamie and Cercie, been bushed out the window, had an attempt on his life, Cat wouldn't have captured Tyrion and on and on (Although I suppose Joff still could have sent the guy to try to kill Bran with the knife)

TheIrishGrover

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

have captured Tyrion and on and on (Although I suppose Joff still could have sent the guy to try to kill Bran with the knife)

He only did it to impress Robert after him stating it would be a mercy or something along those lines so he wouldn't have sent your man if he didn't fall. AFAIK

I have a funny feeling we won't see Stoneheart at all this season, I don't know why it's just how I think they're planning it. They are going to need big moments for series 5 too and they are running out of a lot of them as the books slow down a lot after book 3 imo. I think they could keep it until early in season 5 while bringing in all the Dorne stuff.

Mr.Prodston

Are the brotherhood cast for this season i.e. Beric and Thoros?

It's almost like a Theon situation where they don't appear in the books for a while. Also will Brienne be doing much this season?

Paddy Cow

GhostInTheRuins wrote: »

Yeah that'll be a great moment! I have a feeling they'll change that story slightly though.

It's been a long time since I've read the books, but wasn't Tyrion's discovery that Tysha wasn't actually a whore his main motivation for killing Tywin? The back story might be difficult to convey on the show, but we know that show Tywin hates Tyrion and his prostitutes. So I think Tywin will find out about Shae and have her killed giving Tyrion his motivation.

Unfortunately that'll mean Tyrion won't get his sweet, sweet revenge on Shae.

I could be wrong but that's my theory on what'll happen on the show!

It can't go down like that. Jamie thinks that Tyrion killed Joffrey but he still frees him from the cells. He'd need a big reason to do that and that's where the Tysha storyline comes in. They would have to alter things dramatically if they leave out the Tysha story.

Mickeroo

Sure hasn't Tyrion explained the Tysha story already t Shae in season 1? They'll hardly drop it now considering it was one of the defining moments of his life so far.

GhostInTheRuins

Paddy Cow wrote: »

It can't go down like that. Jamie thinks that Tyrion killed Joffrey but he still frees him from the cells. He'd need a big reason to do that and that's where the Tysha storyline comes in. They would have to alter things dramatically if they leave out the Tysha story.

I forgot all about that actually. You're right.

stevenmu

It'll be interesting to see what they do with Shae. In the books, it was pretty easy to elaborate on just how betrayed Tyrion was so that he could seem sympathetic even as he strangled her (or the book version of her anyway). In the TV show it'll be harder to get that across and it could lead to people feeling a lot more mixed about Tyrion.

podgemonster

They've got 9-10 episodes to manipulate the audiences perception of Shae and her relationship with Tyrion.

Plus Tyrion will be dragged through the mill before he kills her. He should have sympathy in abundance.

Seven hells I can't fuppin wait!!!!

username123

podgemonster wrote: »

They've got 9-10 episodes to manipulate the audiences perception of Shae and her relationship with Tyrion.

Plus Tyrion will be dragged through the mill before he kills her. He should have sympathy in abundance.

Seven hells I can't fuppin wait!!!!

I imagine it will be done as a very emotional "I dont want to do this but Im so hurt its just happening!" type of killing.

Seven bloody hells!!

TheIrishGrover

stevenmu wrote: »

It'll be interesting to see what they do with Shae. In the books, it was pretty easy to elaborate on just how betrayed Tyrion was so that he could seem sympathetic even as he strangled her (or the book version of her anyway). In the TV show it'll be harder to get that across and it could lead to people feeling a lot more mixed about Tyrion.

I'd say they'd go the other direction for the TV series. Series Shae is very different from the books and seems to have genuine feeling for Tyrion (Turning down The Spider's offer to leave). I'd say they'll continue with the Tyrion/Tywin needling which would end in Tywin killing Shae after he finds out about her. This would then give Tyrion the final push he needs to kill him. It would be a simpler and cleaner way of doing it for TV. That way the audience will still be behind Tyrion.

Plus, Shae is pretty popular on the show. Given Jon and Ygritte's story I don't think the producers would put in another betrayal.

Having said that, I'm going to hedge my bets : Maybe they will leave in her betrayal: Joff dies, Tywin dies, Finally seeing a big-ass wildlings/Wall battle, Sansa is relatively safe, Arya is off to get even more badass. Maybe that's too upbeat for the show and they need another gut-punch

Michael D Not Higgins

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

I'd say they'd go the other direction for the TV series. Series Shae is very different from the books and seems to have genuine feeling for Tyrion (Turning down The Spider's offer to leave). I'd say they'll continue with the Tyrion/Tywin needling which would end in Tywin killing Shae after he finds out about her. This would then give Tyrion the final push he needs to kill him. It would be a simpler and cleaner way of doing it for TV. That way the audience will still be behind Tyrion.

Plus, Shae is pretty popular on the show. Given Jon and Ygritte's story I don't think the producers would put in another betrayal.

Having said that, I'm going to hedge my bets : Maybe they will leave in her betrayal: Joff dies, Tywin dies, Finally seeing a big-ass wildlings/Wall battle, Sansa is relatively safe, Arya is off to get even more badass. Maybe that's too upbeat for the show and they need another gut-punch

This is ignoring that they went out of their way last season for Tyrion to give her a necklace (to replace the Hand's necklace), so that they have a prop to strangle her with.

Paddy Cow

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

I'd say they'd go the other direction for the TV series. Series Shae is very different from the books and seems to have genuine feeling for Tyrion (Turning down The Spider's offer to leave). I'd say they'll continue with the Tyrion/Tywin needling which would end in Tywin killing Shae after he finds out about her. This would then give Tyrion the final push he needs to kill him. It would be a simpler and cleaner way of doing it for TV. That way the audience will still be behind Tyrion.

Plus, Shae is pretty popular on the show. Given Jon and Ygritte's story I don't think the producers would put in another betrayal.

Having said that, I'm going to hedge my bets : Maybe they will leave in her betrayal: Joff dies, Tywin dies, Finally seeing a big-ass wildlings/Wall battle, Sansa is relatively safe, Arya is off to get even more badass. Maybe that's too upbeat for the show and they need another gut-punch

They still need to bring the Tysha aspect into it. If they ignore that, there is no reason for Jamie to help Tyrion escape. From what I remember, Tysha was sent on her way after Tywin punished her. It would be interesting if she did bump into Tyrion at some stage. Even though Tyrion was always in love with her, despite thinking she was just some whore Jamie paid for, I can't imagine her being so forgiving of him. She might even try to kill him.

Mr Freeze

December2012 wrote: »

Hmmm, Jamie is in kings landing - do you think this changes the Purple Wedding at all? Or the lead up / events?

Hopefully not, I would say they might just use Jamie's early presence in Kings Landing to show how much he has changed in this interactions with Joffrey and Cercei, before the PW.

How he will fit into the PW now is a big question.

Really hope Stoneheart is not omitted.
Also, hopefully the whole Tyrion/Tywin/Shae thing is not changed, that was class in the book.

Watching The Viper and The Mountain is going to be tough, as was gutted with how that finished.

Most deaths in this season, are going to be welcome ones though aren't they? The Viper is the only "good guy" to go. Non book readers are in for a serious shock, as most episodes are going to have something Big, not just episode 9.

TheIrishGrover

Paddy Cow wrote: »

They still need to bring the Tysha aspect into it. If they ignore that, there is no reason for Jamie to help Tyrion escape. From what I remember, Tysha was sent on her way after Tywin punished her. It would be interesting if she did bump into Tyrion at some stage.......

That's true. But they could change his escape method also (Maybe just have Varys send him on his way to Dany). I'm not saying I agree with it, I'm just saying, structurally, it would be simpler for TV: Tywin finds out about Shae (Maybe at Varys' hand), he kills her. This causes Tyrion to kill him and be locked up. Varys releases Tyrion and sends him on his way to Dany. This all plays to Varys' advantage: Tyrion's out of his hair (No pun intended) and is off to where he should be - helping and educating Dany and Tywin's dead, leaving a very weakened and isolated Cercie (We won't discuss how that panned out in the next two books).

As for the Tysha aspect. To be honest, I don't think they'll ever meet. I think she's long dead. That Tywin had her killed afterwards. While it's a great part of Tyrion's story when has Martin ever given us a happy ending