Season 4 discussion *People that HAVE read the books*

Gbear

Doing a rewatch of the show at the moment.

Robb to Jon: "Next time I see you you'll be all in black"
Ow my feels.

TheIrishGrover

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

I also wonder about Lady Stoneheart. It's a strand of the books I don't like. I'm just not convinced that it is necessary. I thought it was just a step too far (And I realise how stupid that sounds after accepting white walkers, dragons, Wargs, Dondarion etc). This may be sacrilegious to some but, unless her story involves more than revenge and has a bigger part in the story that cannot be altered, I wouldn't have a real problem with them leaving her out. Give her revenge story to The Blackfish.

I didn't like it either because I bloody hated the Cat chapters

Son0vagun

I love Lady Stoneheart and her band of Outlaws. I only wish we got a POV chapters of them. Perhaps peoples dislike of her is because of a lack of a POV.

Mickeroo

Son0vagun wrote: »

I love Lady Stoneheart and her band of Outlaws. I only wish we got a POV chapters of them. Perhaps peoples dislike of her is because of a lack of a POV.

I don't know, people's dislike of Cat was because of her POV. I would like a brotherhood pov of some sort though.

TheIrishGrover

Mickeroo wrote: »

I don't know, people's dislike of Cat was because of her POV. I would like a brotherhood pov of some sort though.

I actually didn't have a problem with Cat's POV. I actually found her story arc to be one of the most interesting and well written. She had more dimensions than many others. She had her good points and her bad points. Her steadfast loyalty for Ned and Rob and her hatred of Jon for what he represented and her understandable weakness when she released Jamie (She had lost her husband, two sons and probably a daughter too. She had lost her other son to duty and his new wife). She was, probably, the most human and believable character in the books.

I just found the Lady Stoneheart thing a bit of a step too far into fantasy (And, as I said above, I do see the irony).

I would still love to see The Brotherhood in the series and books but, unless Martin has some pivotal point for Cat/Stoneheart, I could see them have The Blackfish join them and pursue his revenge.

I suppose they could do this in the books too. Have him turn up to The Brotherhood only to meet her.

Sleepy

I loved the brotherhood but would agree with Grover on the Lady Stoneheart thing... though I hated Kat as a character, her weakness and lack of foresight brought most of her problems after Bran's accident down upon herself, her family and the realm in general.

TheIrishGrover

Sleepy wrote: »

I loved the brotherhood but would agree with Grover on the Lady Stoneheart thing... though I hated Kat as a character, her weakness and lack of foresight brought most of her problems after Bran's accident down upon herself, her family and the realm in general.

When you look at it it's kind of like that whole famous Star Wars thing: If that Imperial gunner had blown R2D2 and C3PO's escape pod away then Luke wouldn't have seen the message, met Obi-Wan, flown off with Han and Chewie, rescued Leia, blown up the Death Star and on and on and on.

If Bran hadn't been f*cking about climbing he never would have seen Jamie and Cercie, been bushed out the window, had an attempt on his life, Cat wouldn't have captured Tyrion and on and on (Although I suppose Joff still could have sent the guy to try to kill Bran with the knife)

TheIrishGrover

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

have captured Tyrion and on and on (Although I suppose Joff still could have sent the guy to try to kill Bran with the knife)

He only did it to impress Robert after him stating it would be a mercy or something along those lines so he wouldn't have sent your man if he didn't fall. AFAIK

I have a funny feeling we won't see Stoneheart at all this season, I don't know why it's just how I think they're planning it. They are going to need big moments for series 5 too and they are running out of a lot of them as the books slow down a lot after book 3 imo. I think they could keep it until early in season 5 while bringing in all the Dorne stuff.

Mr.Prodston

Are the brotherhood cast for this season i.e. Beric and Thoros?

It's almost like a Theon situation where they don't appear in the books for a while. Also will Brienne be doing much this season?

Paddy Cow

GhostInTheRuins wrote: »

Yeah that'll be a great moment! I have a feeling they'll change that story slightly though.

It's been a long time since I've read the books, but wasn't Tyrion's discovery that Tysha wasn't actually a whore his main motivation for killing Tywin? The back story might be difficult to convey on the show, but we know that show Tywin hates Tyrion and his prostitutes. So I think Tywin will find out about Shae and have her killed giving Tyrion his motivation.

Unfortunately that'll mean Tyrion won't get his sweet, sweet revenge on Shae.

I could be wrong but that's my theory on what'll happen on the show!

It can't go down like that. Jamie thinks that Tyrion killed Joffrey but he still frees him from the cells. He'd need a big reason to do that and that's where the Tysha storyline comes in. They would have to alter things dramatically if they leave out the Tysha story.

Mickeroo

Sure hasn't Tyrion explained the Tysha story already t Shae in season 1? They'll hardly drop it now considering it was one of the defining moments of his life so far.

GhostInTheRuins

Paddy Cow wrote: »

It can't go down like that. Jamie thinks that Tyrion killed Joffrey but he still frees him from the cells. He'd need a big reason to do that and that's where the Tysha storyline comes in. They would have to alter things dramatically if they leave out the Tysha story.

I forgot all about that actually. You're right.

stevenmu

It'll be interesting to see what they do with Shae. In the books, it was pretty easy to elaborate on just how betrayed Tyrion was so that he could seem sympathetic even as he strangled her (or the book version of her anyway). In the TV show it'll be harder to get that across and it could lead to people feeling a lot more mixed about Tyrion.

podgemonster

They've got 9-10 episodes to manipulate the audiences perception of Shae and her relationship with Tyrion.

Plus Tyrion will be dragged through the mill before he kills her. He should have sympathy in abundance.

Seven hells I can't fuppin wait!!!!

username123

podgemonster wrote: »

They've got 9-10 episodes to manipulate the audiences perception of Shae and her relationship with Tyrion.

Plus Tyrion will be dragged through the mill before he kills her. He should have sympathy in abundance.

Seven hells I can't fuppin wait!!!!

I imagine it will be done as a very emotional "I dont want to do this but Im so hurt its just happening!" type of killing.

Seven bloody hells!!

TheIrishGrover

stevenmu wrote: »

It'll be interesting to see what they do with Shae. In the books, it was pretty easy to elaborate on just how betrayed Tyrion was so that he could seem sympathetic even as he strangled her (or the book version of her anyway). In the TV show it'll be harder to get that across and it could lead to people feeling a lot more mixed about Tyrion.

I'd say they'd go the other direction for the TV series. Series Shae is very different from the books and seems to have genuine feeling for Tyrion (Turning down The Spider's offer to leave). I'd say they'll continue with the Tyrion/Tywin needling which would end in Tywin killing Shae after he finds out about her. This would then give Tyrion the final push he needs to kill him. It would be a simpler and cleaner way of doing it for TV. That way the audience will still be behind Tyrion.

Plus, Shae is pretty popular on the show. Given Jon and Ygritte's story I don't think the producers would put in another betrayal.

Having said that, I'm going to hedge my bets : Maybe they will leave in her betrayal: Joff dies, Tywin dies, Finally seeing a big-ass wildlings/Wall battle, Sansa is relatively safe, Arya is off to get even more badass. Maybe that's too upbeat for the show and they need another gut-punch

Michael D Not Higgins

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

I'd say they'd go the other direction for the TV series. Series Shae is very different from the books and seems to have genuine feeling for Tyrion (Turning down The Spider's offer to leave). I'd say they'll continue with the Tyrion/Tywin needling which would end in Tywin killing Shae after he finds out about her. This would then give Tyrion the final push he needs to kill him. It would be a simpler and cleaner way of doing it for TV. That way the audience will still be behind Tyrion.

Plus, Shae is pretty popular on the show. Given Jon and Ygritte's story I don't think the producers would put in another betrayal.

Having said that, I'm going to hedge my bets : Maybe they will leave in her betrayal: Joff dies, Tywin dies, Finally seeing a big-ass wildlings/Wall battle, Sansa is relatively safe, Arya is off to get even more badass. Maybe that's too upbeat for the show and they need another gut-punch

This is ignoring that they went out of their way last season for Tyrion to give her a necklace (to replace the Hand's necklace), so that they have a prop to strangle her with.

Paddy Cow

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

I'd say they'd go the other direction for the TV series. Series Shae is very different from the books and seems to have genuine feeling for Tyrion (Turning down The Spider's offer to leave). I'd say they'll continue with the Tyrion/Tywin needling which would end in Tywin killing Shae after he finds out about her. This would then give Tyrion the final push he needs to kill him. It would be a simpler and cleaner way of doing it for TV. That way the audience will still be behind Tyrion.

Plus, Shae is pretty popular on the show. Given Jon and Ygritte's story I don't think the producers would put in another betrayal.

Having said that, I'm going to hedge my bets : Maybe they will leave in her betrayal: Joff dies, Tywin dies, Finally seeing a big-ass wildlings/Wall battle, Sansa is relatively safe, Arya is off to get even more badass. Maybe that's too upbeat for the show and they need another gut-punch

They still need to bring the Tysha aspect into it. If they ignore that, there is no reason for Jamie to help Tyrion escape. From what I remember, Tysha was sent on her way after Tywin punished her. It would be interesting if she did bump into Tyrion at some stage. Even though Tyrion was always in love with her, despite thinking she was just some whore Jamie paid for, I can't imagine her being so forgiving of him. She might even try to kill him.

Mr Freeze

December2012 wrote: »

Hmmm, Jamie is in kings landing - do you think this changes the Purple Wedding at all? Or the lead up / events?

Hopefully not, I would say they might just use Jamie's early presence in Kings Landing to show how much he has changed in this interactions with Joffrey and Cercei, before the PW.

How he will fit into the PW now is a big question.

Really hope Stoneheart is not omitted.
Also, hopefully the whole Tyrion/Tywin/Shae thing is not changed, that was class in the book.

Watching The Viper and The Mountain is going to be tough, as was gutted with how that finished.

Most deaths in this season, are going to be welcome ones though aren't they? The Viper is the only "good guy" to go. Non book readers are in for a serious shock, as most episodes are going to have something Big, not just episode 9.

TheIrishGrover

Paddy Cow wrote: »

They still need to bring the Tysha aspect into it. If they ignore that, there is no reason for Jamie to help Tyrion escape. From what I remember, Tysha was sent on her way after Tywin punished her. It would be interesting if she did bump into Tyrion at some stage.......

That's true. But they could change his escape method also (Maybe just have Varys send him on his way to Dany). I'm not saying I agree with it, I'm just saying, structurally, it would be simpler for TV: Tywin finds out about Shae (Maybe at Varys' hand), he kills her. This causes Tyrion to kill him and be locked up. Varys releases Tyrion and sends him on his way to Dany. This all plays to Varys' advantage: Tyrion's out of his hair (No pun intended) and is off to where he should be - helping and educating Dany and Tywin's dead, leaving a very weakened and isolated Cercie (We won't discuss how that panned out in the next two books).

As for the Tysha aspect. To be honest, I don't think they'll ever meet. I think she's long dead. That Tywin had her killed afterwards. While it's a great part of Tyrion's story when has Martin ever given us a happy ending

Paddy Cow

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

That's true. But they could change his escape method also (Maybe just have Varys send him on his way to Dany). I'm not saying I agree with it, I'm just saying, structurally, it would be simpler for TV: Tywin finds out about Shae (Maybe at Varys' hand), he kills her. This causes Tyrion to kill him and be locked up. Varys releases Tyrion and sends him on his way to Dany. This all plays to Varys' advantage: Tyrion's out of his hair (No pun intended) and is off to where he should be - helping and educating Dany and Tywin's dead, leaving a very weakened and isolated Cercie (We won't discuss how that panned out in the next two books).

As for the Tysha aspect. To be honest, I don't think they'll ever meet. I think she's long dead. That Tywin had her killed afterwards. While it's a great part of Tyrion's story when has Martin ever given us a happy ending

That definitely can't happen. Tyrion gets locked up because they think he murdered Joffrey. I never understood in the books why Tywin slept with Shae. He hates prostitutes and it's too out of character for him to use one, never minds Tyrion's sloppy seconds. If Shae came onto Tywin, I imagine his reaction being more like Joffreys - to beat or kill her.

Why would Varys send Tyrion on his way to Dany? I doubt Varys would want a Lannister being on Dany's counsel. Varys knows that Tyrion is a very intelligent man and having him out of the way would be the better option. Tyrion was a very good Hand and the Realm was showing progress under his leadership. We saw what Varys does to the next Lannister (Kevan) who started to stabilise things.

I don't see how the show can deviate from the books. Tyrion gets locked up because they think he killed Joffrey. No one in their right mind is going to help him escape. While being the most intelligent Lannister, he is also the weakest because of his disabilities. The other Lannisters (except Jamie) hate him and none of the other houses consider him an asset. Despite all his hard work in saving King's Landing, the public don't like him. He has no friends. The only protection he had was his father's name and he lost that when he got called Kinslayer.

The only person who can help him is Jamie and when Jamie tells him about Tysha, that is his motivation to kill Tywin. Whether or not they have him kill Shae is another story. They could have Shae leaving the kingdom when she learns that Tyrion is in jail and Sansa has disappeared. That way he wouldn't have to kill her. They could have her character take a darker role in the next season so the viewers get to see her more calculating side and see her betraying Tyrion, giving justification to Tyrion for killing her.

Another option is that Shae realises she is on a sinking ship and goes to Tywin to try and seduce him on the night that Tyrion escapes. Tywin kills her and Tyrion who was already on a mission to kill him because of Tysha, now has a double reason to.

TheIrishGrover

Paddy Cow wrote: »

That definitely can't happen. Tyrion gets locked up because they think he murdered Joffrey. I never understood in the books why Tywin slept with Shae. He hates prostitutes and it's too out of character for him to use one, never minds Tyrion's sloppy seconds. If Shae came onto Tywin, I imagine his reaction being more like Joffreys - to beat or kill her.

Why would Varys send Tyrion on his way to Dany? I doubt Varys would want a Lannister being on Dany's counsel. Varys knows that Tyrion is a very intelligent man and having him out of the way would be the better option. Tyrion was a very good Hand and the Realm was showing progress under his leadership. We saw what Varys does to the next Lannister (Kevan) who started to stabilise things.

I don't see how the show can deviate from the books. Tyrion gets locked up because they think he killed Joffrey. No one in their right mind is going to help him escape. While being the most intelligent Lannister, he is also the weakest because of his disabilities. The other Lannisters (except Jamie) hate him and none of the other houses consider him an asset. Despite all his hard work in saving King's Landing, the public don't like him. He has no friends. The only protection he had was his father's name and he lost that when he got called Kinslayer.

The only person who can help him is Jamie and when Jamie tells him about Tysha, that is his motivation to kill Tywin. Whether or not they have him kill Shae is another story. They could have Shae leaving the kingdom when she learns that Tyrion is in jail and Sansa has disappeared. That way he wouldn't have to kill her. They could have her character take a darker role in the next season so the viewers get to see her more calculating side and see her betraying Tyrion, giving justification to Tyrion for killing her.

Another option is that Shae realises she is on a sinking ship and goes to Tywin to try and seduce him on the night that Tyrion escapes. Tywin kills her and Tyrion who was already on a mission to kill him because of Tysha, now has a double reason to.

Oh yeah. Of course he was locked up for that. Brain fart here. Forgot about that. Durrrrrr!

I know that Varys seems to be a Targaryn loyalist but I still think Tyrion would be better off with Dany. He would be a good asset for Dany. Not so much for his dragonlore knowledge but for his knowledge of the lay of the land in Westeros. Which houses are strong, which only appear strong, loyalties, alliances to be had etc. Selmy and Mormont are just warriors and can't see the big picture that he can. Obviously, from Varys' standpoint, Tyrion must be dealt with once he has served his purpose (ie. murderised) but why waste a potential asset right now. Obviously this would have to be a huge part of the next book(s) given the level of distrust he must overcome.

I know that the last chapter of ADWD painted Varys as a diehard Targaryn loyalist but I always thought that Varys (And to a lesser extend, Littlefinger. He obviously has his own agenda) didn't really give a crap who was on the throne really. They knew what was coming. They believed the stories about the walkers etc and they really knew what "Winter Is Coming" actually meant. That this was potentially the end of all. I always thought that they didn't care who was on the throne so long as they were strong enough to stand against the walkers. Robert was a fool, Cercie even more so, Joff, The other Baratheons, everyone else wouldn't stand up to them. In a strange way I always thought that Varys always thought that what he was doing was for the good of Westeros and that, in a strange, perverse way, HE is the hero of the books. Dany seems to be that leader.But in order to fight them she has to win Westeros first. And she can't do that without Tryion. Selmy (And Mormont if they ever reunite) can tell her how to win a battle but not a war. For that she needs Tyrion.

I do think Shae is brownbread though. She's a gonner. I just think it's gonna be Tywin killing her (As you said, it always rang false that Tywin would take her given his distaste for prostitutes and Tyrion.)

Anywya, that's my (overvalued) 2 cents worth

GerB40

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

I'd say they'd go the other direction for the TV series. Series Shae is very different from the books and seems to have genuine feeling for Tyrion (Turning down The Spider's offer to leave). I'd say they'll continue with the Tyrion/Tywin needling which would end in Tywin killing Shae after he finds out about her. This would then give Tyrion the final push he needs to kill him. It would be a simpler and cleaner way of doing it for TV. That way the audience will still be behind Tyrion.

Plus, Shae is pretty popular on the show. Given Jon and Ygritte's story I don't think the producers would put in another betrayal.

Having said that, I'm going to hedge my bets : Maybe they will leave in her betrayal: Joff dies, Tywin dies, Finally seeing a big-ass wildlings/Wall battle, Sansa is relatively safe, Arya is off to get even more badass. Maybe that's too upbeat for the show and they need another gut-punch

To be fair if there's any show that doesn't need anymore gut-punches it's Game of Thrones. Viewers will still be reeling over the red wedding and I doubt even Joffs poisoning will make up for the decimation of the Starks.
I'd imagine viewers will feel weird about Tywins death. He's the 'Bad guy you love to hate' and one of the best actors on the show (Despite being a filthy Lannister).
In my opinion, characters dying too much will get annoying so the best possible ending for season 4 would be Lady Stoneheart. The re-emergence of a Stark will give viewers hope that GoT can offer happy endings after all.

Barna77

Red Viper v the Mountain should be soo good. Did they recast the actors for the Mountain and Daenerys' surfer boyfriend?

As said above, I don't believe they'd make Shae betray Tyrion. Tywin would probaby find out and get her killed, making Tyrion mad and kill daddy gold. I'm going to miss Tywin.

Waiting for another internet meltdown after the Purple Wedding

TheIrishGrover

Barna77 wrote: »

Red Viper v the Mountain should be soo good. Did they recast the actors for the Mountain and Daenerys' surfer boyfriend?

As said above, I don't believe they'd make Shae betray Tyrion. Tywin would probaby find out and get her killed, making Tyrion mad and kill daddy gold. I'm going to miss Tywin.

Waiting for another internet meltdown after the Purple Wedding

Yeah, Tywin (Well, Charles Dance) is going to be a great loss. He played that part to perfection. The whole casting of the show, IMHO, has been spot on. The only problem I had initially was Cat. I always thought she was too old for Eddard. (But then I'd forgotten she was supposed to marry his older brother). But she grew on me and was a great actor.

At last we still have the amazing Diana Rigg as Olenna Tyrell and you know they'll have fun with her in the next seasons with Cercie's storyline (Assuming they merge the storylines of AFFC and ADWD).

A Neurotic

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

Yeah, Tywin (Well, Charles Dance) is going to be a great loss. He played that part to perfection. The whole casting of the show, IMHO, has been spot on. The only problem I had initially was Cat. I always thought she was too old for Eddard. (But then I'd forgotten she was supposed to marry his older brother). But she grew on me and was a great actor.

At last we still have the amazing Diana Rigg as Olenna Tyrell and you know they'll have fun with her in the next seasons with Cercie's storyline (Assuming they merge the storylines of AFFC and ADWD).

I agree in general that the casting is spot-on for nearly every character. But I just can't warm to pouty moon face TV Jon Snow. The man does not exude badass.

Mickeroo

I didn't realise the new Daario is that actor from Tremé. He's quite likeable in Tremé, think he's pretty miscast as Daaio tbh. Didn't think the first guy looked the part either but at least he got the sleez and unlikability off to a tee. Be interesting to see how this guy gets on, maybe he'll prove me wrong.

Witcher

Jon is supposed to look sullen, he's a man that is looked down upon for something which is not his fault. If he were lowborn he'd get no attention but he has gotten flak all his life for being 'lesser' than his siblings. No matter what Jon does he'll never be seen as equal to Robb, people even belittle his leadership when defending the Wall just because of his heritage but Robb is praised despite having a whole crowd of advisors around him to help..the Greatjon, Roose Bolton etc. Jon had nobody like that but he's still put down.

Alys Karstark even mentions when she meets Jon at the Wall that she remembers him as being dour. He matches Ned closely in that as Catelyn says the same thing about Ned when comparing him to Brandon.

If Jon wasn't solemn it wouldn't be right imo. Anyone would be pissed at growing up a virtual outsider, with your own half sister calling you a bastard and then being forced into the NW where your birth still hangs over you.

username123

Blay wrote: »

If Jon wasn't solemn it wouldn't be right imo. Anyone would be pissed at growing up a virtual outsider, with your own half sister calling you a bastard and then being forced into the NW where your birth still hangs over you.

He wasn't forced into the NW, he chose it. Although he did feel tricked when he realised that instead of being full of honourable men it was full of ex cons. That would add to his sour puss.

Witcher

username123 wrote: »

He wasn't forced into the NW, he chose it. Although he did feel tricked when he realised that instead of being full of honourable men it was full of ex cons. That would add to his sour puss.

He couldn't go to court with Ned and Catelyn wouldn't have him in Winterfell, it was either go with Benjen to the Watch or go and sleep in a field so he wasn't given much of a choice in fairness.

There was pretty much no future for him as a free man, even with Ned being as loved as he was in the North, none of his bannermen would have wanted Jon for their daughters. When you look at how he grew up it's really sad imo, even Brynden Tully when he hears that Jon has been elected LC suspects he got it by being in league with the Lannisters, just because he was a bastard and Catelyn had been whispering in his ear. The guy can't catch a break despite being just as capable as Robb.