The main problem with health service is...

stpaddy99

They need to prioritise people getting scanned ahead of everything else

how to do this?


well firstly get all the bosses to sit down with the health minister and firstly acknowledge and under that scans are the most urgent priority

once this is clearly thought out and understood they rebuilt the system accordingly

the wasted burocracy the awkward unhelpful receptionists , the stupid double bookings taken that tie up ambulances, the stupid phone systems that do nothing to really save lives are all a distant priority behind getting more people scanned...not to forget the often wasteful management of staff where 3 or 4 staff seem to be doing the same thing at once. we also see the services reduced on weekends and holidays to a skeleton staff levels thus vastly more people die on weekends.

I would look to the government to target scanning as a national emergency


this means getting more money from the pot from other areas of the governmet budget, including overseas aid

ok so we really target scanning and in time the tens of billions spent now will saves 100s of billions over the next few decades and save 1000s of lives

let me clarify exactly why getting people scanned urgently and more quickly is a massive cost saving and life saving ad time saving emergency

- people get scanned earlier, they find out whats wrong with them.
that means we have more chance of reliving their main, getting them treated and saving their lives

- this also means they do not then have to waste their time, months or years getting worse, taking tablets and anti biotics they may not need...taking up hospital beds they may not otherwise need, taking up nurses, doctors, porters, surgeons time , not to forget the food and drin and bed clothes etc it all adds up....expenses and services that they may not need IF they had been scanned in the first place

- it also helps people avoid furrther infections if they know eaxtly what is wrong with them in the first place

- Ill give you one horrific example, I beg you to understand the horror of this staistic....In the UK there were in 1 year an estimated 25,000 people who died from undiagnosed unseen unsuspected blood clots , that they did not have when they first entered the hospital.....25,000 silent deaths?

-It is unbelievably hard to get an mri or scan for blood clots. we actually treat cars better than humans. we can get a diagnostic and full service and MOT for cars ....try getting a full service for a human being

The system is really plain stupid in parts and we have brainless politicians claiming its getting better and repeating their prepared cliches when clearly they do not understand nor cna be bothered to really uproots these problems

the heath service will always be a crazy task fought against all odds to protect and save lives. it will never be close to perfect. BUt it has massive room to be improved.

prioritisng scanning over absolutely everything else is the key to saving the service and lives

as an analogy i would compare it to the way new your police department finally cleaned up the city. One year they decided crime was so bad that they would seek to take money from other departments with a view to recouping this money and reducing their budget in future years. this they did , they targeted enormous energy, money and resources at the biggets crimes and in just a few years crime fell significantly. Then a few years later their budgets fell as they simply didnt need so much money as much of the major crime had been uprooted and would never return to such a level.

In the case of the health service , the sheer amount getting earlier scans would save in terms of staff hours across the whole health service would be enormous as would the level of health and the number of lives saved, Its a case of clearer thinking imo

wazky

Loads of sick people turning up at the same time?

kjl

I think the medical card system is flawed. I know a GP who has to deal with a full waiting room everyday and according to him 80% of them come at least a couple of times a month, not because they are sick, but because they want someone to chat too.

People come in complaining about problems that you know they wouldn't have come in if they had to pay €60.

I think they should charge €5 to medical card patients, that way it would filter out a lot of the illegitimate visits. Even if you were only on the dole, you would still manage to get €5 together is you were genuinely sick.

ScumLord

stpaddy99 wrote: »

They need to prioritise people getting scanned ahead of everything else

Need to get a scan done?

-It is unbelievably hard to get an mri or scan for blood clots. we actually treat cars better than humans. we can get a diagnostic and full service and MOT for cars ....try getting a full service for a human being

To be fair, the piece of equipment for scanning cars is cheap and available to anyone that wants to buy one. You could buy the piece of equipment and probably have it learned in a few weeks. MRI's are big, expensive and are operated by people that need a college education.

If they fixed the real problem in our hospitals (management) sanning would fall into place.

Witcher

That it's full of Scots.

chopper6

A friend of mine is in st James' at the moment undergoing tests...the hospital is like a fcuckin b&b for junkies....complications due to certain people's chosen lifestyle plus free access to health services for them is a contributory factor in clogging up our health system.

Muise...

The main problem with health service is... everyone who is unqualified thinks they have the solution.

ScumLord

chopper6 wrote: »

A friend of mine is in st James' at the moment undergoing tests...the hospital is like a fcuckin b&b for junkies....complications due to certain people's chosen lifestyle plus free access to health services for them is a contributory factor in clogging up our health system.

when I was in hospital it felt like I'd accidentally been thrown into a retirement home. It was full of old people demanding tests and refusing to go home.

Hootanany

Greedy Consultants for one.

endacl

The only problem with the health service is sick people. If it wasn't for all the feckin' sick people the health service would be tickety boo.

stpaddy99

Muise... wrote: »

The main problem with health service is... everyone who is unqualified thinks they have the solution.

I disagree
you dont need a doctorate to see people need scans....its common sense.
sometimes when youre in the quagmire of the health service its hard to see the woods for the trees.....a maze is much easier to navigate from the outside looking in

Muise...

stpaddy99 wrote: »

I disagree
you dont need a doctorate to see people need scans....its common sense.
sometimes when youre in the quagmire of the health service its hard to see the woods for the trees.....a maze is much easier to navigate from the outside looking in

Draw up a detailed plan & budget so.

ScumLord

stpaddy99 wrote: »

I disagree
you dont need a doctorate to see people need scans....its common sense.

People don't necessarily need scans. I don't know how you plan to free up the scanners by getting more people to use them.

stpaddy99

Muise... wrote: »

Draw up a detailed plan & budget so.

so?

stpaddy99

ScumLord wrote: »

People don't necessarily need scans. I don't know how you plan to free up the scanners by getting more people to use them.

obviously by spending more money on keeping the scanners on more hours of every day? in time this would ramatically reduce the amount of money the health service would need to spend elsewhere in the system...some scanners are barely used...in some hospitals multi million pound scanners are used for 5 hours a week? ps almost everyone who cant be treated by a doctor needs some scan or other

ScumLord

stpaddy99 wrote: »

obviously by spending more money on keeping the scanners on more hours of every day? in time this would ramatically reduce the amount of money the health service would need to spend elsewhere in the system...some scanners are barely used...in some hospitals multi million pound scanners are used for 5 hours a week? ps almost everyone who cant be treated by a doctor needs some scan or other

I don't think it's that simple. An MRI machine requires an experienced operator. Keeping that machine running costs a fortune, everything about the machine is expensive, there are going to be massive costs there that you just can't see from a layman's position. There's nothing to say doing more scans is going to reduce costs across the board the very fact you're running one of the most expensive machines in the building longer, which is going to require much more staff (it would go beyond simply giving the operator more hours) would mean your spending considerably more.

FairytaleGirl

The main problem with the health service is ...
People putting a price on healthcare.

Aoifums

What's the point in a scan if you can't get an appointment? Who is going to send you go get the scan if you can't see a consultant for 3 months. Sure, your GP can send you but if the results have to go to someone more qualified then getting an initial appointment is more important, right?

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

banquo

stpaddy99 wrote: »

so?

Amazing!

syklops

kjl wrote: »

I think the medical card system is flawed. I know a GP who has to deal with a full waiting room everyday and according to him 80% of them come at least a couple of times a month, not because they are sick, but because they want someone to chat too.

People come in complaining about problems that you know they wouldn't have come in if they had to pay €60.

I think they should charge €5 to medical card patients, that way it would filter out a lot of the illegitimate visits. Even if you were only on the dole, you would still manage to get €5 together is you were genuinely sick.

About a third of the country has a medical card. The rest either have private health insurance or they pay full whack themselves. If you have a medical card you can go to a GP with a sniffle and get seen. If you dont have a medical card it is 50 euro minimum to see a Dr.

There is something wrong somewhere.

stpaddy99

ScumLord wrote: »

I don't think it's that simple. An MRI machine requires an experienced operator. Keeping that machine running costs a fortune, everything about the machine is expensive, there are going to be massive costs there that you just can't see from a layman's position. There's nothing to say doing more scans is going to reduce costs across the board the very fact you're running one of the most expensive machines in the building longer, which is going to require much more staff (it would go beyond simply giving the operator more hours) would mean your spending considerably more.

I disagree....we invest billions in the machines, billions in training these experts...then we only use them 5 hours a week in some hospitals...its insane.....we need to chissel off the endless waste and burocracdy and target tens of billions into getting these scanners working far more regularly and pump in the extra 100s of millions into paying the specialists to use the machines....we also need a staggered system where these experts are spread out across the 7 days and most of the 24 hours

same with weekends where in most hospitals you cant get certain scans at all

its a disgrace...the layman is the best man to point out what a disgrace it is, the so called experts appear incapable of recognising the most basic facts.....scan more people quicker, more people survives, less people block beds, less people tae up nurses doctors time and less people take billions of euros worth of wasted unnecessary medicines....

we must prioritise scanning above everything

McDermotX

Scanners are a good thing.

I liked the way your man's head exploded near the start.

Second one was tripe, and I heard the third was garbage.

So maybe more scanners are not a good thing.

drkpower

Sadly, 'scans' are not the panacea theOP believes them to be. Medicine and diagnosis remains about 80% dependant on good old fashioned history and examination in the hands of an experienced doctor.

BanzaiBk

OP do you have any idea of the work involved organising, prioritising, performing and reporting on these "scans"? When do you propose all these extra scans take place? Some can take up to 90 minutes. A unit that runs from 8am to 7pm every day can only physically scan so many people. Who would deliver the results when there is suddenly a whole new influx of reports? The whole system needs to be reorganised, not one tiny cog in the machine.

I rang 6 different people yesterday afternoon to see if they would take a cancelled slot for a CT scan. All of them refused, "Saturdays aren't convenient" or "I'm off at the weekend love". In the end a man who would have a 3 hour drive in the early hours of the morning jumped at the appointment. No one speaks of the patients who purposely clog up the system by failing to attend appointments or attend the ED when they are dissatisfied.

UCDVet

The 'real' problem is that advancing technologies in the medical area have outpaced wages by an obscene margin. Nobody wants to say it or talk about it, but the truth is we can't provide everyone 'the best healthcare'.

It's like the ancient Egyptians...they could build amazing pyramids, right? Right. We can see them today. Cool stuff. But just because, as a society, they could build one, doesn't mean EVERY CITIZEN could have one of their own.

But healthcare is a life and death issue. And nobody wants to face the reality of it, so we have things like 'free healthcare' you can't use because you are on a waiting list and, when you do use it, such poor service you decided to go private from then on because of it (if you have means that is).

Nobody is ever going to commit political suicide and say, 'Yeah - look, we can treat X but it's really expensive and takes years, and only helps in 30% of the cases....and it costs millions. We're just going to let those patients die'....nobody wants to talk about it. We just stick our fingers in our ears and say, 'EVERYONE deserves medical treatment' and then we gloss over the hows and whys.

They've done studies on the lifetime medical costs an average person will incur....and the numbers are skyrocketing. We're at a point now where a healthy person is going to rack up an average of like 500,000 euro in medical bills.

The average annual salary in Ireland is 40k. It won't be long before a normal, healthy person racks up as much in medical treatment as they earn in a lifetime. It doesn't take a mathematician to work this stuff out.

Technological advances will keep happening. They'll have a new drug for X and a new machine for Y. And they'll be expensive. And we'll continue to bankrupt ourselves paying for it.

donegal__road

a few years ago I asked my doctor to refer me for a scan for a certain issue.
So on the Monday he faxed Euro-medics, on the Wednesday I had the scan, and on the Friday the doctor rang to tell me the results were all clear.

I paid €175 for it but it was well worth it.

The Backwards Man

I'm no doctor, but I'm skeptical of the healing power of scanners.

The HSE is a disaster, a black hole of waste and mismanagement. I do a fair bit of contract work for it, and if I told you half of what I know they'd hunt me down and kill me. And possibly review my contract.

Fr_Dougal

Government haven't a clue, they took away the tax relief for private health insurance and as a result people didn't renew their health insurance and are now clogging up the public system.

Bring back tax relief for private health insurance, scrap the BIK and ease the pressure on public healthcare.

Annasopra

Why does scanning need priority?

donegal__road

early detection? For example isn't it better for the patient to have cancer detected at stage 2 rather than stage 4?

BanzaiBk

Early detection would need to come out of early presentation to be fair.

If a doctor comes down to radiology, speaks to a consultant radiologist and says 'I think this patient has X based on physical review' the scan will be done ASAP. Routine scans sent in by GPs and the like are put on the routine list. The absolute majority of scans that are ordered will say 'routine next'. If a doctor considers them urgent it will be accommodated. A scan is only a tiny part of a diagnosis.

MonstaMash

The main problem with health service is...unhealthy peoples

ScumLord

stpaddy99 wrote: »

I disagree....we invest billions in the machines, billions in training these experts...then we only use them 5 hours a week in some hospitals...its insane.....we need to chissel off the endless waste and burocracdy and target tens of billions into getting these scanners working far more regularly and pump in the extra 100s of millions into paying the specialists to use the machines....we also need a staggered system where these experts are spread out across the 7 days and most of the 24 hours

I still don't see where you're saving money, you're now spending billions on scans and there's no evidence at all it will save lives or money. Like it's been pointed out the doctors examination is more important, the scan is just confirming or dismissing what the doctor thinks is wrong. Then of course the treatment is even more important, there's no point spending billions getting scans for everybody if we don't have the staff and resources to treat them.

Hello_MrFox

Is it possible to buy and get trained in the use of these 'scanners' and do it as a little nixer on the side to compliment my dole payment?

ProfessorPlum

OP can you clarify what you mean by 'scan'. What kind of a scan, what are you looking for on it, how are you going to interpret it and how often do you propose to re scan people? Is it a CT, MRI, US, Doppler, radioisotope, PET.......
It seems to me that you don't really understand very much about 'scans' at all.

There's a **** lot wrong with the health service, but this ain't the solution.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

freedominacup

Muise... wrote: »

The main problem with health service is... everyone who is unqualified thinks they have the solution.

I don't think that's the main problem to be fair and tbh all those who are supposed to be qualified have fcuked it up to the point that an unqualified person couldn't, no matter hw much they tried, fcuk it up any more.

To my mind bureaucracy is killing the public health service. I brought on of my children for a checkup with a private healthcare practice recently. It was my first time there. There were at least a half dozen healthcare professionals working in this practice with no admin staff, at all. The receptionist was a computer. A nice shiny apple job with a mouse/joystick you used to highlight your name on a list of expected patients, you were then prompted to go to the waiting room. Afterwards whichever person had seen you brought you back to reception just entered the info about whatever procedure you had onto a computer and booked you in for your next appointment. How many admin staff would you expect to find in the public health service in an office with 3/4 doctors and 2/3 nurses.

I could give numerous other examples of this sort of nonsense. Records must be kept, patient histories must be kept but this does not require a tenth of the admin staff currently on the health services books. Put a proper service wide IT system in place and introduce zero budgeting (on Monday for preference) and a lot of the health services problems would be sorted.

Couple these with a mandatory charge equivalent to 8 weeks income for anyone brought by ambulance/garda car to an A&E whose blood alcohol was more than the equivalent of someone who had consumed 4 drinks. From memory the first alcohol limit was around 100mgs it's now less than 50 AFAIK. This should act to take a good bit of pressure off that part of the service and at the same time bring in a nice bit of extra cash.

BanzaiBk

freedominacup wrote: »

I don't think that's the main problem to be fair and tbh all those who are supposed to be qualified have fcuked it up to the point that an unqualified person couldn't, no matter hw much they tried, fcuk it up any more.

To my mind bureaucracy is killing the public health service. I brought on of my children for a checkup with a private healthcare practice recently. It was my first time there. There were at least a half dozen healthcare professionals working in this practice with no admin staff, at all. The receptionist was a computer. A nice shiny apple job with a mouse/joystick you used to highlight your name on a list of expected patients, you were then prompted to go to the waiting room. Afterwards whichever person had seen you brought you back to reception just entered the info about whatever procedure you had onto a computer and booked you in for your next appointment. How many admin staff would you expect to find in the public health service in an office with 3/4 doctors and 2/3 nurses.

I could give numerous other examples of this sort of nonsense. Records must be kept, patient histories must be kept but this does not require a tenth of the admin staff currently on the health services books. Put a proper service wide IT system in place and introduce zero budgeting (on Monday for preference) and a lot of the health services problems would be sorted.

Couple these with a mandatory charge equivalent to 8 weeks income for anyone brought by ambulance/garda car to an A&E whose blood alcohol was more than the equivalent of someone who had consumed 4 drinks. From memory the first alcohol limit was around 100mgs it's now less than 50 AFAIK. This should act to take a good bit of pressure off that part of the service and at the same time bring in a nice bit of extra cash.

Sounds like a great system but you are highlighting a private practice which by default is going to have less of a turn over of patients. Have you been to a public OPD? Could you see 100+ people calmly checking themselves in order? No. It would turn into chaos.

stevenmu

stpaddy99 wrote: »

scans are the most urgent priority

What about people having heart attacks, or who are bleeding out from stab wounds, or who have head trauma?

What about people who have had a scan and have had problems found?

BillyMitchel

What of you don't need a scan but some test?!

A+E is a joke I bet if they cut waiting times by 50% most people would stop moaning about hospitals.

freedominacup

BanzaiBk wrote: »

Sounds like a great system but you are highlighting a private practice which by default is going to have less of a turn over of patients. Have you been to a public OPD? Could you see 100+ people calmly checking themselves in order? No. It would turn into chaos.

I'm not talking about OPD or any other acute facility, I'm talking about routine outpatient clinics. How does a private practice have less of a turnover by default? I seem to remember one consultant asseting that he saw more patients in a morning in his private practice than he did on any full day in the public system. The strange thing was in his private practice he had less than half the support staff than was deemed essential in the public hospital where he also worked.

ProfessorPlum

Fred Swanson wrote: »

I think the OP is referring to things like breastcheck, diabetic eye screening, smear screenings etc.

Awful big pushes on those 3 things at present. Everyone else to the back of the queue.

Mmm... So in other words, things that aren't really 'scans' at all. I think the OP might be trying to push 'screening'. But again it's a bit more complicated than saying 'everyone should be screened'.

ProfessorPlum

freedominacup wrote: »

I'm not talking about OPD or any other acute facility, I'm talking about routine outpatient clinics.

OPD are routine Outpatient clinics. But I agree, there are too many layers of administration in the health service, and it is incredibly inefficient.

freedominacup

ProfessorPlum wrote: »

OPD are routine Outpatient clinics. But I agree, there are too many layers of administration in the health service, and it is incredibly inefficient.

Sorry you are correct, I was reading opd as a&e for some reason.

freedominacup

BanzaiBk wrote: »

Sounds like a great system but you are highlighting a private practice which by default is going to have less of a turn over of patients. Have you been to a public OPD? Could you see 100+ people calmly checking themselves in order? No. It would turn into chaos.

Why wouldn't they? It couldn't be any worse than any public opd I've ever been in where all patient s are told to turn up st the same time. There are two appointment times 9 and 2.

freedominacup

freedominacup wrote: »

Why wouldn't they? It couldn't be any worse than any public opd I've ever been in where all patient s are told to turn up st the same time. There are two appointment times 9 and 2.

I had a public xray appt recently, bunch of us showed up around the same time but no more than maybe 7. it was about 830am. We all checked ourselves in in order, the whole thing was really quick and efficient. I have to say I was very impressed

Pretzill

We need to look to history to improve our health service. We once had better community health services with public health clinics in towns and villages. Small injuries, cuts bruises and minor breaks - hysterical parents et al could be triaged here.
Without blocking up a&e.

Matrons and sisters on the wards kept a tighter ship when it came to how aftercare was handled.

Scanning people is not a solution - it buys into.all those private clinic deals - offering full body scans worrying otherwise healthy people with aneuryisms found that may never have become a problem. Family history cancer should always be looked for early. Cervical Screening programme is probably one of the most efficient programmes ever rolled out.

Finally we should have universal healthcare for all.

My two cents.

BanzaiBk

freedominacup wrote: »

Why wouldn't they? It couldn't be any worse than any public opd I've ever been in where all patient s are told to turn up st the same time. There are two appointment times 9 and 2.

I know first hand it won't work because I actually work in the system. People blindly ignore queues, don't read notices and barge their way around the facility. Doctors don't want to manage the order because they have better things to be doing. Should a team of 5 doctors be pulling and organising charts for a clinic of 120, thus further causing delays? Who pulls the bloods and radiology results to be put in the charts so they are ready to go the minute the doctor picks up the chart? Faced with a waiting room of over 50 people at any given time one administrator allows the doctors to get on with their job at clinic which is to review.

I'd be the first to say that there is far too many administrators even though I myself am one, but removing them from patient facing areas is misguided. A self check in facility operates in our MR unit and it works well on the days where 20/30 patients need to be scanned but turns into a warzone on the quick scan days where 40+ are seen.

stpaddy99

BillyMitchel wrote: »

What of you don't need a scan but some test?!

A+E is a joke I bet if they cut waiting times by 50% most people would stop moaning about hospitals.

tests often dont find the problems, scans and screenings do
tae blood clots, nurses take blood tests but they do not tell you if you have a clot. that is risking the lives of thousands. all to avoid the hassle of getting people scanned properly on the dopler machine. its a disgrace

25000 people died in UK alone from undaignosed blood clots in 1 year. cloys picked up in hospitals that they didnt have when they arrived. thats more than road deaths, cancer deaths, diabtese deaths all added together...yet how much do you hear about blod clot deaths in the media? its a silent killer which isnt sexy enough to make the headline news

BanzaiBk

stpaddy99 wrote: »

tests often dont find the problems, scans and screenings do
tae blood clots, nurses take blood tests but they do not tell you if you have a clot. that is risking the lives of thousands. all to avoid the hassle of getting people scanned properly on the dopler machine. its a disgrace

25000 people died in UK alone from undaignosed blood clots in 1 year. cloys picked up in hospitals that they didnt have when they arrived. thats more than road deaths, cancer deaths, diabtese deaths all added together...yet how much do you hear about blod clot deaths in the media? its a silent killer which isnt sexy enough to make the headline news

What are you looking for exactly? The HSE/Department of Health set up a nationwide screening programme for every citizen of the state to have an ultrasound doppler carotids/lower leg?