Turning a mule into a race horse.

Gavlor

Jaysus this place is full of people that ignore the advice of others!

Even I wouldn't try a(nother) marathon with that kind of crappy mileage 10 weeks out and that's saying something!

Pacing Mule

Gavlor wrote: »

Jaysus this place is full of people that ignore the advice of others!

Even I wouldn't try a(nother) marathon with that kind of crappy mileage 10 weeks out and that's saying something!

Yeah maybe so but that's at your level Gavlor not mine.

Hal Higdon Novice 1 10 weeks out - Peak Mileage 25 miles
Boards Plan 10 weeks out - Peak Mileage 35 miles -
Mine - 32

Now you can go back and trawl through my exact mileage for the past few weeks if you like. It is somewhere in the middle of both plans. Avg on Strava is 20 miles for the last 4 weeks but I hardly ran for 1 week whilst on holidays. Generally have averaged around 25 recently and building up. Either way my mileage is in touch with the boards plan average mileage and well ahead of Hal Higdon. Would you suggest to those following these plans that their mileage isn't high enough ?

As much as people here can say you're not a novice to me at the same time I may as well be when compared to your standard. You're fit enough to get back into running 2 months out from a marathon and nail a pacing job. Seriously racing you're in and around a 3 hr marathon ??? Bottom line is you are a different standard to me so what's the point in holding me to it ?

Gavlor

Pacing Mule wrote: »

Yeah maybe so but that's at your level Gavlor not mine.

Hal Higdon Novice 1 10 weeks out - Peak Mileage 25 miles
Boards Plan 10 weeks out - Peak Mileage 35 miles -
Mine - 32

Now you can go back and trawl through my exact mileage for the past few weeks if you like. It is somewhere in the middle of both plans. Avg on Strava is 20 miles for the last 4 weeks but I hardly ran for 1 week whilst on holidays. Generally have averaged around 25 recently and building up. Either way my mileage is in touch with the boards plan average mileage and well ahead of Hal Higdon. Would you suggest to those following these plans that their mileage isn't high enough ?

As much as people here can say you're not a novice to me at the same time I may as well be when compared to your standard. You're fit enough to get back into running 2 months out from a marathon and nail a pacing job. Seriously racing you're in and around a 3 hr marathon ??? Bottom line is you are a different standard to me so what's the point in holding me to it ?

Surely it's already been established time and time again that mileage is key regardless of ability/fitness/target pace?

I was only hopping a ball with my previous post but would you honestly agree with someone doing a marathon with your current level of mileage?

I don't think you would....

Edit: Whether or not you are a novice is not determined by your pace

annapr

PM, You have nothing to lose by taking the next 3 weeks and training at the right pace, etc.... you're right, make the call after the HM and another long run or two.

Pacing Mule

Gavlor wrote: »

Surely it's already been established time and time again that mileage is key regardless of ability/fitness/target pace?

I was only hopping a ball with my previous post but would you honestly agree with someone doing a marathon with your current level of mileage?

I don't think you would....

Edit: Whether or not you are a novice is not determined by your pace

Yes I would at my particular level. I've been quite clear on that. If my mileage isn't enough then anyone following Hal Higdon 1 isn't high enough and anyone following the boards plan is in danger too. (I don't believe they are unless they are aiming at a fast time) My concerns are with the stamina required and the mileage required to build that for the relatively faster times. I don't have the mileage or base to do a 3:30 that McMillan predicts for me. Well aware of that.

Ok fair enough dictionary definition of a novice I'm not but I am poles apart from the level you are at. To knock out a 3 hour marathon there isn't a hope in hell of doing it on the kind of mileage I currently have. But I'm not trying to do a 3 hour marathon and that's my point to you. I'd be an absolute fool to argue that.

menoscemo

You're definitely not a Novice PM and until you get that idea out of your head you'll never reach your full potential.

The HH Novice plan is designed to get you around the course, no more and no less. I would never recommend anyone doing the plan to set any kind of semi-aggressive goal time. That plan is designed for people who can just about run 10k 18 weeks before the marathon. You are many steps ahead of that standard, so I just wouldn't be comparing you to that.

Not sure about the boards plan but isn't there the option of adding in extra miles/days? Is 35 not the bottom mileage?

Anyway sorry to be banging on. I just want to see you avoid the mistakes of previous years. You've been going really well this year but I fear you just don't have the consistent mileage to be doing marathons at the moment.

Gavlor

Pacing Mule wrote: »

Yes I would at my particular level. I've been quite clear on that. If my mileage isn't enough then anyone following Hal Higdon 1 isn't high enough and anyone following the boards plan is in danger too. (I don't believe they are unless they are aiming at a fast time) My concerns are with the stamina required and the mileage required to build that for the relatively faster times. I don't have the mileage or base to do a 3:30 that McMillan predicts for me. Well aware of that.

Ok fair enough dictionary definition of a novice I'm not but I am poles apart from the level you are at. To knock out a 3 hour marathon there isn't a hope in hell of doing it on the kind of mileage I currently have. But I'm not trying to do a 3 hour marathon and that's my point to you. I'd be an absolute fool to argue that.

Why do you keep bringing up a 3 hour marathon?!

That's like me not listening to krusty or Trr as they are at a totally different level to me!

All I'm saying is that you know what it takes to run a marathon and you know what it takes to murder yourself for a marathon.

Once the next couple of weeks pass just make sure you make the decision consistent with the good advice that you give out here and don't let ego get in the way.

Pacing Mule

menoscemo wrote: »

You're definitely not a Novice PM and until you get that idea out of your head you'll never reach your full potential.

The HH Novice plan is designed to get you around the course, no more and no less. I would never recommend anyone doing the plan to set any kind of semi-aggressive goal time. That plan is designed for people who can just about run 10k 18 weeks before the marathon. You are many steps ahead of that standard, so I just wouldn't be comparing you to that.

Not sure about the boards plan but isn't there the option of adding in extra miles/days? Is 35 not the bottom mileage?

Anyway sorry to be banging on. I just want to see you avoid the mistakes of previous years. You've been going really well this year but I fear you just don't have the consistent mileage to be doing marathons at the moment.

That's fair enough Meno. You're being open about it and still supportive at the same time. Agree with you to a point about being ahead of the HH standard myself but my mileage is also ahead of it too. I don't see myself as a novice to be fair - have slightly backed myself into a corner on that but I do know I've quite a lot of work to do to improve to the likes of your standard for example. That's not me putting myself down - it's just reality. I've come a long way but have more to go.

Yeah there is an optional recovery miles you could add to the peak mileage on boards plan but to max that you're up to 7 days a week running. The standard 5 days is what I referenced.

Am I right in understanding that sub 4 would be considered semi aggressive by you ?

menoscemo

Pacing Mule wrote: »

Am I right in understanding that sub 4 would be considered semi aggressive by you ?

At this stage with your half time and your current mileage and marathon history I definitely wouldn't be saying it's a soft target!! It's definitely soft by your 5k time but the fact that your 5k time is so good compared to your half is a worry.

Is it achievable? Yes of course, but I think you will have to put the work in from here on out.
No more 20 mile weeks!!

As an aside, Anna is following my plan (which I would class as intermediate), and she is hoping for a 4:15 Marathon. She did almost 50 miles last week, so to say that people going for 4 hours and over are all doing Novice plans is wrong. I know plenty of people who have followed the likes of P&D with a 4hour target or slower.

Pacing Mule

Gavlor wrote: »

Why do you keep bringing up a 3 hour marathon?!

That's like me not listening to krusty or Trr as they are at a totally different level to me!

All I'm saying is that you know what it takes to do run a marathon and you know what it takes to murder yourself for a marathon.

Once the next couple of weeks pass just make sure you make the decision consistent with the good advice that you give out here and don't let ego get in the way.

No it's not at all. I will listen to you all day about what it takes to run a 3 hour marathon. I lurk and read Krusty and TRRs logs myself. I've learned plenty from them and their discussions and contributions here across the forum. All I'm saying is that you are comparing apples with oranges when you come in and say the mileage isn't enough to run a marathon off. It isn't enough for your standard for sure. And when at some point I'm trying to hit a sub 3 by all means come back and tell me I'm an asshole if I try it off inappropriate mileage.

Ego won't come into it whatsoever. I posted yesterday about not feeling the love for the long runs / not having enough motivation. If that's back then I'm quite happy with a decision to go ahead. If it's not then I'm happy to sit it out.

Gavlor

Pacing Mule wrote: »

All I'm saying is that you are comparing apples with oranges when you come in and say the mileage isn't enough to run a marathon off. It isn't enough for your standard for sure. And when at some point I'm trying to hit a sub 3 by all means come back and tell me I'm an asshole if I try it off inappropriate mileage.

You are 100% wrong here.

Pacing Mule

Gavlor wrote: »

You are 100% wrong here.

Clarify your point so. You've come in and said the mileage isn't high enough to run a marathon off.

Is that to run a marathon off for me personally at the standard I am aiming for ?

Or do you feel the mileage isn't enough for anyone full stop ?

menoscemo

Gavlor wrote: »

You are 100% wrong here.

Hahaa, I don't think anyone has ever accused Gavlor of being a high mileage runner.

FWIW PM I think what Gavlor is saying is that there are actually 3 hour Marathon runners who do 20-30 mpw (he might even be one of them ). Perhaps if they trained a bit more they'd be 2:30 marathoners like TRR and Krusty

Gavlor

menoscemo wrote: »

Hahaa, I don't think anyone has ever accused Gavlor of being a high mileage runner.

FWIW PM I think what Gavlor is saying is that there are actually 3 hour Marathon runners who do 20-30 mpw (he might even be one of them ). Perhaps if they trained a bit more they'd be 2:30 marathoners like TRR and Krusty

F?ck you!!!

Gavlor

Pacing Mule wrote: »

Clarify your point so. You've come in and said the mileage isn't high enough to run a marathon off.

Is that to run a marathon off for me personally at the standard I am aiming for ?

Or do you feel the mileage isn't enough for anyone full stop ?

The latter. And as I said in another log previously, I should know!

Pacing Mule

menoscemo wrote: »

Hahaa, I don't think anyone has ever accused Gavlor of being a high mileage runner.

FWIW PM I think what Gavlor is saying is that there are actually 3 hour Marathon runners who do 20-30 mpw (he might even be one of them ). Perhaps if they trained a bit more they'd be 2:30 marathoners like TRR and Krusty

Well if he is saying that then my mileage is just grand and we can end the debate :pac:

Pacing Mule

Gavlor wrote: »

The latter.

OK - So going back to Hal Higdons novice plan that a good load of boardsies are following here. Not good enough mileage there ?

Gavlor

Pacing Mule wrote: »

OK - So going back to Hal Higdons novice plan that a good load of boardsies are following here. Not good enough mileage there ?

Not if they are chasing a time. Grand to trot around but you've already done that so I'm assuming that you're looking to challenge yourself, hence the sub 4?

Pacing Mule

Pacing Mule wrote: »

Clarify your point so. You've come in and said the mileage isn't high enough to run a marathon off.

Is that to run a marathon off for me personally at the standard I am aiming for ?

Or do you feel the mileage isn't enough for anyone full stop ?

Gavlor wrote: »

The latter. And as I said in another log previously, I should know!

Pacing Mule wrote: »

OK - So going back to Hal Higdons novice plan that a good load of boardsies are following here. Not good enough mileage there ?

Gavlor wrote: »

Not if they are chasing a time. Grand to trot around but you've already done that so I'm assuming that you're looking to challenge yourself, hence the sub 4?

So it's not the latter.

And that's where the confusion is. If you feel I myself personally don't have enough mileage done to hit sub 4 that's a different debate and one that will only be settled if I go ahead and run it or not.

Time will tell on that.

Gavlor

Pacing Mule wrote: »

And that's where the confusion is. If you feel I myself personally don't have enough mileage done to hit sub 4 that's a different debate and one that will only be settled if I go ahead and run it or not.

Time will tell on that.

Copy that post, paste it to a word doc, print it off, put it on the fridge and read it again in the morning as if it wasn't on your log.

I have a feeling you might think differently about your mileage, or lack thereof.

Anyway, I'm hijacking your log and getting nowhere so adios amigo!!

Notwork Error

Pacing Mule wrote: »

OK - So going back to Hal Higdons novice plan that a good load of boardsies are following here. Not good enough mileage there ?

You're being really stubborn with this!:D

They are using it to complete their first marathon. You have far more potential than just a completion or a 4 hour time. I'm with the lads, if you really want to progress and reach your current potential, drop any idea of running a marathon this year and focus on building up to nail one in Spring. A marathon now will only interrupt your progress, you could be making huge endurance gains in the time you are flogging yourself to run a sub-par race. Patience is everything in running and I think it's something you'll have to get acquainted with better. As the old saying goes," don't sacrifice the great for the good".

Hannibal Smith

Notwork Error wrote: »

You're being really stubborn with this!:D

They are using it to complete their first marathon. You have far more potential than just a completion or a 4 hour time. I'm with the lads, if you really want to progress and reach your current potential, drop any idea of running a marathon this year and focus on building up to nail one in Spring. A marathon now will only interrupt your progress, you could be making huge endurance gains in the time you are flogging yourself to run a sub-par race. Patience is everything in running and I think it's something you'll have to get acquainted with better. As the old saying goes," don't sacrifice the great for the good".

To be fair NE he's already said a few times he's not gonna flog himself just for the sake of it.

Wouldnt dare enter into the whole marathon advice...coz i dont have a clue...but the whole stubborn/ego stuff isnt really necessary when he said already he's not going to do the marathon just for the sake of it and may very well decide not to do it.

Pacing Mule

Notwork Error wrote: »

You're being really stubborn with this!:D

They are using it to complete their first marathon. You have far more potential than just a completion or a 4 hour time. I'm with the lads, if you really want to progress and reach your current potential, drop any idea of running a marathon this year and focus on building up to nail one in Spring. A marathon now will only interrupt your progress, you could be making huge endurance gains in the time you are flogging yourself to run a sub-par race. Patience is everything in running and I think it's something you'll have to get acquainted with better. As the old saying goes," don't sacrifice the great for the good".

Quoting in case you delete it :P

Yes I am stubborn. Always have been always will be. It's nearly a compliment to me. Gavlor came in saying that the mileage wasn't good enough for anyone to run a marathon off which is wrong. That's never something I'm going to let go by. :pac: Now we're settled on it's not good enough for me to run a sub 4 off which is a different stance. Stubborn me now wants to do that of course but I'm also well past running to prove to others. Have had quite my fill of that kind of ****e here.

I take your points on board too and appreciate it. If I don't do DCM this year it won't be a spring marathon but will most likely be DCM 16.

Gavlor

Pacing Mule wrote: »

Quoting in case you delete it :P

Yes I am stubborn. Always have been always will be. It's nearly a compliment to me. Gavlor came in saying that the mileage wasn't good enough for anyone to run a marathon off which is wrong. That's never something I'm going to let go by. :pac: Now we're settled on it's not good enough for me to run a sub 4 off which is a different stance. Stubborn me now wants to do that of course but I'm also well past running to prove to others. Have had quite my fill of that kind of ****e here.

I take your points on board too and appreciate it. If I don't do DCM this year it won't be a spring marathon but will most likely be DCM 16.

Well I did pace a 3.40 in Dublin off 200 miles so I guess it's possible.

But then I'm great so.....

yaboya1

Anyone can complete a marathon. Training or no training.

Completing one in the fastest time you're currently capable of is an entirely different matter. That does require training. And for someone who's completed two already, I'd say it requires a fair bit more training than the HH1 plan. At the end of the day, its up to you what you want to do but I have a feeling you won't be happy with yourself if you're not giving it your best shot. Good luck with whatever you decide

annapr

menoscemo wrote: »

At this stage with your half time and your current mileage and marathon history I definitely wouldn't be saying it's a soft target!! It's definitely soft by your 5k time but the fact that your 5k time is so good compared to your half is a worry.

Is it achievable? Yes of course, but I think you will have to put the work in from here on out.
No more 20 mile weeks!!

As an aside, Anna is following my plan (which I would class as intermediate), and she is hoping for a 4:15 Marathon. She did almost 50 miles last week, so to say that people going for 4 hours and over are all doing Novice plans is wrong. I know plenty of people who have followed the likes of P&D with a 4hour target or slower.

Don't be using me as an example... i'm old, slow and female* ...but having done HH1 last year, there is no comparison.


*4:15 for me would be a damn good time!

Notwork Error

Hannibal Smith wrote: »

To be fair NE he's already said a few times he's not gonna flog himself just for the sake of it.

Wouldnt dare enter into the whole marathon advice...coz i dont have a clue...but the whole stubborn/ego stuff isnt really necessary when he said already he's not going to do the marathon just for the sake of it and may very well decide not to do it.

You're missing the wood for the trees in my post. He has far more potential than a sub-4 so what's the point when he could be using this time to build to a more ambitious target in the long-term instead of running below his capabilities off limited mileage. I've being in position before with similar PB's over the short stuff when I ran my first marathon, I ran 20mpw for that and finished in 4:07, I remember thinking all those guys running sub-3:30 were God's. 5 months later, I ran 3:15 off of 35-40mpw, they weren't God's at all, they were just preparing better than me. I sold myself short in the first marathon by not putting in the preparation and I feel PM is doing the same now.


That's why I'm calling him stubborn, he won't accept that good prep will lead to the results. I feel like he is trying to get by on the bare minimum to get a result when he could be doing so much more and realising his current potential. Call me a dick for saying it but that's my thoughts and I mean it in an encouraging way.

Anyway, I'm out!

Chivito550

My advice is go with the distance and type of training which 1) you enjoy and 2) will lead to better results. If you have a shot at a sub 21, then sub 20 5k, then I wouldn't bother caring about a sub 4 marathon.

The marathon is just another distance. It is no better or no worse than the 100m or 10k for example. Some would have you believe that it is some kind of holy grail. It really isn't.

Sure, you might find it hard not being involved on the day. Even I get jealous on DCM day. But I bet a stronger PB will feel much better.

I'd stick to the 5k's if I were you. You've no idea how the future could work out, you may end up being a runner who progresses to moving down in distance, rather than up. I think focusing on 5k keeps your options open in the future and provides a nice blend of speed and endurance.

Pacing Mule

Notwork Error wrote: »

You're missing the wood for the trees in my post. He has far more potential than a sub-4 so what's the point when he could be using this time to build to a more ambitious target in the long-term instead of running below his capabilities off limited mileage. I've being in position before with similar PB's over the short stuff when I ran my first marathon, I ran 20mpw for that and finished in 4:07, I remember thinking all those guys running sub-3:30 were God's. 5 months later, I ran 3:15 off of 35-40mpw, they weren't God's at all, they were just preparing better than me. I sold myself short in the first marathon by not putting in the preparation and I feel PM is doing the same now.


That's why I'm calling him stubborn, he won't accept that good prep will lead to the results. I feel like he is trying to get by on the bare minimum to get a result when he could be doing so much more and realising his current potential. Call me a dick for saying it but that's my thoughts and I mean it in an encouraging way.

Anyway, I'm out!

That's bull****. Absolute bull****.

I don't know how many times I have to say this. I'm well aware for a faster time more miles are needed. I absolutely have potential in me to do faster times again off better and more consistent mileage.

I decided to focus earlier in the year on getting my 5k time down as I'd never really done any kind of speed work before. I followed a plan ECOLII put together for me which averaged out at 20-25 miles per week. That was the base I had going into the marathon cycle here. Since then mileage has been increasing gradually as per the marathon plan which was the current boards plan itself. Needed a bit of tweaking which introduced steady sessions every second weekend which would drop the overall mileage slightly but not the quality.

I didn't go into this thinking I would take out a 3:30 marathon this year. If I planned on doing a 3:30 marathon I would have been running more miles. McMillan put me down for a 3:30 off my 5k. That's the only point where this figure came into it. I always had in my head that this wasn't feasible off my training. Have said it here in my log multiple times before this blow up that it wasn't a figure I had myself pegged for. I believe sub 4 is feasible this year off the mileage I have and will put in and would represent an hour off my PB and for me is reaching the potential I have at this moment in time off my current work. And I personally will be happy with that result.

Next time round targetting a better time to realise potential etc more miles and more prep are needed but that is the absolute same for all distances. The more you train the fitter / faster you get. I 100% know this and why you think I don't see this is another wood for the trees situation.

Notwork Error

Fair enough, do your thing. I just think you shouldn't look at things the novices are doing as justification for your approach, it's the minimum and good for getting people accross the line. I just worry that you'll stunt all your progress this year by rushing into a marathon and making the same mistakes you've made in the past one's when some more time working at building strength would serve you much better and put you in a better position to handle the training required. That is all.

Best of luck with it.