Taxi driver

Moomat

I hailed a taxi in the city late last night and to my surprise it was a lady driver. She was a black lady and wearing a Hijab. As she was wearing a hijab I presume she was a Muslim.
I was in company and didn't want to pry but it has me curious as to how a lady that is so devote that she wears a hijab contend with all the implications of being a female taxi driver? How does this occupation sit with Muslim beliefs?

Tom Dunne

I'm curious as to how this would be in contravention of Muslim beliefs (non-Muslim here).

Genuine question, I am not trying to be facetious.

smcgiff

Tom Dunne wrote: »

I'm curious as to how this would be in contravention of Muslim beliefs (non-Muslim here).

Genuine question, I am not trying to be facetious.

I think the OP is referring to the practice (not sure if it's religious or custom) about a Muslim female only being in the company of male relatives.

Moomat

I thought, possibly wrongly, that being alone with other men was forbidden?

Tom Dunne

smcgiff wrote: »

I think the OP is referring to the practice (not sure if it's religious or custom) about a Muslim female only being in the company of male relatives.

Moomat wrote: »

I thought, possibly wrongly, that being alone with other men was forbidden?

Well if that's the case, all the Muslim women I work with are in contravention of their beliefs.

And to clarify, what you are referring to above is one of the many untrue myths about Islam.

Yes, it is practiced in Saudi, but as we all well know, Saudi Arabia is not representative of Islam.

smcgiff

Tom Dunne wrote: »

Well if that's the case, all the Muslim women I work with are in contravention of their beliefs.

And to clarify, what you are referring to above is one of the many untrue myths about Islam.

Yes, it is practiced in Saudi, but as we all well know, Saudi Arabia is not representative of Islam.

To be fair it's not just Saudi - Islam isn't just in the Middle East

Tom Dunne

smcgiff wrote: »

To be fair it's not just Saudi - Islam isn't just in the Middle East

I am not aware of the practice anywhere else, that's where I was coming from.

Take Indonesia or Pakistan for example - two large, non-Arab countries with Muslim populations, do they engage in this practice? To the best of my knowledge, they don't. Open to correction.

Moomat

Tom Dunne wrote: »

Well if that's the case, all the Muslim women I work with are in contravention of their beliefs.

And to clarify, what you are referring to above is one of the many untrue myths about Islam.

Yes, it is practiced in Saudi, but as we all well know, Saudi Arabia is not representative of Islam.

And thats why I came here to get opinions A common theme that emerges when discussing Islam is women's perceived lack of rights. I know too little about it to have an opinion but if you you say it's a myth I'm delighted!

smcgiff

Tom Dunne wrote: »

I am not aware of the practice anywhere else, that's where I was coming from.

Take Indonesia or Pakistan for example - two large, non-Arab countries with Muslim populations, do they engage in this practice? To the best of my knowledge, they don't. Open to correction.

Wherever Sharia or the Taliban operate for sure. I know the Saudi's have police specifically to enforce certain religious laws, but it's defacto in other areas of other countries.

smcgiff

Very first page when I searched ... Islam male relative

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/8371221/Muslim-women-should-not-travel-more-than-48-miles-from-home-without-male-chaperone.html

It's not Indian law, but may be a cultural law.

Moomat

smcgiff wrote: »

Wherever Sharia or the Taliban operate for sure. I know the Saudi's have police specifically to enforce certain religious laws, but it's defacto in other areas of other countries.

Saw an interesting documentary before called "Afghan Star" The shows stars were definitely under pressure from more extreme elements.

Tom Dunne

smcgiff wrote: »

Very first page when I searched ... Islam male relative

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/8371221/Muslim-women-should-not-travel-more-than-48-miles-from-home-without-male-chaperone.html

It's not Indian law, but may be a cultural law.

India is hardly representative, since it's not a Muslim-majority country (13% Muslim, I read somewhere).

Again, not trying to be facetious, just saying it as I see it.

Tom Dunne

Moomat wrote: »

Saw an interesting documentary before called "Afghan Star" The shows stars were definitely under pressure from more extreme elements.

And again, this is where it is vital to differentiate between the extremists and moderates.

Afghanistan is a Third World country that hasn't had a stable government in 30-40 years. In the power vacuum, organised elements such as extremists, prosper.

Moomat

smcgiff wrote: »

Very first page when I searched ... Islam male relative

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/8371221/Muslim-women-should-not-travel-more-than-48-miles-from-home-without-male-chaperone.html

It's not Indian law, but may be a cultural law.

What are the penalties for breaking a fatwa? Is it serious or is the equivalent of some old bemoaning sex before marriage from the alter.

problemchimp

Was her face completely covered? (except her eyes of course)

smcgiff

Tom Dunne wrote: »

India is hardly representative, since it's not a Muslim-majority country (13% Muslim, I read somewhere).

Again, not trying to be facetious, just saying it as I see it.

Neither is Ireland.

The OP's query is valid in that there are Islamic religious laws governing who females can be in the company of. Whether they are strictly followed is separate. I'm guessing he assumed all Hijab wearing females followed the other laws.

Likewise, the OP could have said something similar if he thought the taxi driver was Amish.

Moomat

problemchimp wrote: »

Was her face completely covered? (except her eyes of course)

Her face was visible

Frank Grimes

problemchimp wrote: »

Was her face completely covered? (except her eyes of course)

A hijab is a headscarf that doesn't cover the face.

biko

A hijab is more like a scarf that covers all hair and neck but not the face.
As the driver was black she was possibly Somali or similar. Their version of Islam isn't as strict as Saudi and the women can move about pretty freely.

Moomat

Tom Dunne wrote: »

And again, this is where it is vital to differentiate between the extremists and moderates.

Afghanistan is a Third World country that hasn't had a stable government in 30-40 years. In the power vacuum, organised elements such as extremists, prosper.

I understand that but my point is that there is religion related rules for what women can and can't do, regardless of what end of the scale they are at.

Tom Dunne

smcgiff wrote: »

Neither is Ireland.

The OP's query is valid in that there are Islamic religious laws governing who females can be in the company of

How would you define what a religious law is? As opposed to a cultural norm?

smcgiff

Tom Dunne wrote: »

How would you define what a religious law is? As opposed to a cultural norm?

They are interspersed.

I see what you're getting at. Crosses are a fashion item as much as anything.

But, (open to correction) I don't think Islamic religious laws have reached similar fashion proportions.

Tom Dunne

smcgiff wrote: »

They are interspersed.

But you appear to be making the assertion that it is written down somewhere that women cannot be in the company of men they are not related to.

I am making the assertion that this is yet another example of a cultural norm that has been misrepresented in the West as a tenet of Islam. Which it is not.

So, where if it is a religious law, where is it written?

smcgiff

Tom Dunne wrote: »

So, where if it is a religious law, where is it written?

I'll answer your question with a question. Where does the practice come from that it's a law in Saudi?

Frank Grimes

Tom Dunne wrote: »

But you appear to be making the assertion that it is written down somewhere that women cannot be in the company of men they are not related to.

I am making the assertion that this is yet another example of a cultural norm that has been misrepresented in the West as a tenet of Islam. Which it is not.

So, where if it is a religious law, where is it written?

Scroll down to the section entitled Khawla in this post and it gives reference to the hadith.

smcgiff

"A woman may not leave the city without her husband or a member of her unmarriageable kin accompanying her, unless the journey is obligatory, like the hajj. It is unlawful for her to travel otherwise, and unlawful for her husband to allow her to." -- 'Umdat al-Salik m10.3

My understanding that Umdat al-Salik means Islamic Sacred Law

Tom Dunne

smcgiff wrote: »

I'll answer your question with a question. Where does the practice come from that it's a law in Saudi?

I've never been to Saudi, so I have no idea how they run their country.

All I know is that in all the Muslim countries I have been to, it is not law.

smcgiff

Tom Dunne wrote: »

All I know is that in all the Muslim countries I have been to, it is not law.

It's not the law of the land in Ireland either, but we accept people will still follow their religious beliefs (as long as it doesn't break the law of the land).

The OP was curious (understandably) about a person religious enough to wear a Nijab but not be worried about the hadith re male company.

Which I think was answered above, when a poster said certain Muslims would not be so strict.

Moomat

Frank Grimes wrote: »

Scroll down to the section entitled Khawla in this post and it gives reference to the hadith.

This is taken from the post you linked to:
3) Work: If the nature of the work means that one needs to mix then there is a permit. Work involves looking for work e.g. interviews, etc. The Messenger Muhammad (saw) permitted Zubayr Ibn Awwam's wife to work. She carried water both to men and women. The Messenger even offered his camel to assist her.

This seems to indicate that being a female Muslim taxi driver is fine.

Yeah I've heard of women who will have no issue with it for work but won't for socialising

Frank Grimes

Moomat wrote: »

This is taken from the post you linked to:
3) Work: If the nature of the work means that one needs to mix then there is a permit. Work involves looking for work e.g. interviews, etc. The Messenger Muhammad (saw) permitted Zubayr Ibn Awwam's wife to work. She carried water both to men and women. The Messenger even offered his camel to assist her.

This seems to indicate that being a female Muslim taxi driver is fine.

I should have been clearer, I meant that in relation to the more general unrelated men and women not being alone together thing i.e. that there is a basis for it in Islam.

Moomat

Frank Grimes wrote: »

I should have been clearer, I meant that in relation to the more general unrelated men and women not being alone together thing i.e. that there is a basis for it in Islam.

I didn't realise that there would be a difference between social and work type interaction or if it was really forbidden at all, hence my op.

Effects

smcgiff wrote: »

But, (open to correction) I don't think Islamic religious laws have reached similar fashion proportions.

Really? I've seen a massive proportion or Hijabs that are worn as fashion items.

smcgiff

Effects wrote: »

Really? I've seen a massive proportion or Hijabs that are worn as fashion items.

How do you know

biko

This is turning into a Women in Islam and Working thread, interesting stuff.

Mohammed's first wife Khadijah was 40 and a successful merchant when she married him, he was 25. Of course he was still just a man then.
She was also the first person to convert to Islam. Without her support Mohammed would never have been able to grown to the person he is regarded today (imo).

Effects

smcgiff wrote: »

How do you know

It's pretty obvious. They come in a huge variation of colours and patterns.

smcgiff

Effects wrote: »

It's pretty obvious. They come in a huge variation of colours and patterns.

It only makes sense in the context of this thread if you know they are wearing Hijabs for non religious reasons.

Just because they are colourful doesn't take away from them serving a religious function.

Effects

They are serving a dual purpose. Same as crosses for christians. It may be a fashion accessory but it's still worn as a symbol of their faith.

smcgiff

Effects wrote: »

It may be a fashion accessory but it's still worn as a symbol of their faith.

It seems we're singing from the same hymn sheet, as it were.

confusedquark

Moomat wrote: »

I hailed a taxi in the city late last night and to my surprise it was a lady driver. She was a black lady and wearing a Hijab. As she was wearing a hijab I presume she was a Muslim.
I was in company and didn't want to pry but it has me curious as to how a lady that is so devote that she wears a hijab contend with all the implications of being a female taxi driver? How does this occupation sit with Muslim beliefs?

I don't think I've ever seen a female taxi driver, never mind a Muslim one.

To give a short answer, once it is out of necessity, and there aren't any alternative employment opportunities available, it is still permissible for a woman to work under such circumstances in Islam. The same could be said of female Muslim doctors, nurses, secretaries etc.