WWII - QUICK BRIEFING

sopretty

I'm watching the film Pearl harbour and I am completely confused as to why either the US or Japan somehow became involved in WWII.

I have film on pause as it is making no sense to me.

From google, am I correct in thinking the following?

1. There was a war in Europe (WWII).

2. US, was not in any way involved in this nor concerned with this, but were however concerned with cutting off Japan's supply to oil. So they had a massive navy fleet in Pearl Harbour.

3. Japan got wind of the word, so decided to attack US navy fleet.

4. Given the war in Europe, everybody but Germany (were they the allies? Or was that WWI?) had ships in ocean near Pearl Harbour. So they helped the US out?

5. US then joined WWII against Germany as a 'thank you' for helping them out?

Have I got this completely arseways?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Japan was at war with China. Despite being a military superpower, their war with China was using up their resources. During that time, most of their resources especially oil were coming from the US. The US did not approve of Japanese aggression in China and they declared an embargo on Japan. This means they would stop supplying Japan with raw materials. So where would Japan get their resources to continue the war now?

The Japanese High Command carefully discussed this and came up with the conclusion that the Dutch East Indies would be the best place to gain resources. But they knew that an attack on the Dutch East Indies would probably bring the US into the war. So they had to find a way to prevent the US from fighting with them until they conquered the Dutch East Indies. That's when they planned Pearl Harbor. The goal of Pearl Harbor was to disable the American fleet for a few months to give them enough time to conquer the Dutch East Indies and to absorb its resources to finance their war in China and the US once the US' navy was rebuilt

Corkfeen

The bombing of Pearl Harbour was an act of war so they officially joined the war as a result. The US were also supporting the Allies with munitions,raw materials etc at discounted rates so unofficially they had chosen sides.

Isolationists would not support entering the war unless there was a direct act of aggression against the US. They even had issues with the trade support that the US were providing. Japan bombing Pearl Harbour was a declaration of War against the US so they also had public support to enter the war which they had not had up until that point.

dmc17

China fired a bomb at Japan but they gave it a bit too much wellie and it hit America. They got pissed off and fired a bomb back at Germany because the Chinese told them Germany fired the bomb at them. I think it played out something like that.

Ruu

There is an entire forum dedicated to WWII, moving from AH. The forum charter now applies.

sopretty

Why was a significant proportion of the US navy fleet sitting in Pearl Harbour?

sopretty

Ruubot - thanks for that. Can you move the thread?

coolhull

dmc17 wrote: »

China fired a bomb at Japan but they gave it a bit too much wellie and it hit America. They got pissed off and fired a bomb back at Germany because the Chinese told them Germany fired the bomb at them. I think it played out something like that.

Where did you study history,dmc?

dmc17

coolhull wrote: »

Where did you study history,dmc?

After hours

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

coolhull wrote: »

Where did you study history,dmc?

OP posted in After Hours initially, hence the early replies reflecting the mentality there!

WilyCoyote

dmc17 wrote: »

After hours

Far less biased than Wiki

sopretty

As I posted in OP, I just wanted a quick briefing. Not a full discussion. Just to understand a film. It appears there are various theories on it anyway, but I'm happy with what I have understood in my OP. That's my story and I'm happy with it! Thanks.

sopretty

Is what I set out in my OP incorrect kneemos?

sopretty

kneemos wrote: »

Don't understand the last two points.

Well then I was asking the wrong person.

Manach

Certain Americans have advanced a conspiracy theory (Odd I know) that the British Naval intelligence had cracked the Japanese code prior to the Pearl Harbour attack, and failed to mention that to the US so as to get them on-board on the Allied side.

sopretty

Anyway, did the US join WWII then or what? Or did Japan and the US just fight among themselves?

coolhull

U.S. officially the Allies after Pearl Harbour (7/12/41). They had bases in England and Northern Ireland, and later France and Italy. Non-biased observers believe that without US help, the war in Europe would have continued for many more years, with no guarantee of an Allied victory

Jawgap

sopretty wrote: »

Why was a significant proportion of the US navy fleet sitting in Pearl Harbour?

Because it was their primary naval base in the Pacific.

There were a lot ships berthed there at the time of the attack, but crucially their aircraft carriers weren't.

After Pearl, Germany declared war on the US - not the other way around.

In the run up to Pearl, the US had been supporting Britain and as early as Spring 1941 had held secret discussions (the ABC Conference) at which a 'Europe first' policy was agreed.

After Pearl (and Germany's declaration of war), Churchill went to Washington for the 'Arcadia' which set down the Germany-first policy.

The BBC's site isn't the worst place to start with to get some more info on WWII

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwtwo/

Tzar Chasm

coolhull wrote: »

U.S. officially the Allies after Pearl Harbour (7/12/41). They had bases in England and Northern Ireland, and later France and Italy. Non-biased observers believe that without US help, the war in Europe would have continued for many more years, with no guarantee of an Allied victory

even without US boots on the ground in the western front, there could not have been a/victory without lend lease, the ostfront would not have withheld the onslaught of germany without those essential supplies, food, clothing and transport.

Hitlers claim of just needing to kick the door in would have been an apt asesment of the soviet situation without it.

as for the OP's question, when the US declared war on japan Germany declared war on the US in solidarity, Germany expected Japan to reciprocate and declare war on the USSR, thereby opening a second front for stain and diverting massive resources awat from the ostfront.

this didn't happen, japan had been to war with rusdia in the early thirties and was still licking her wounds from that experience

Stallingrad

coolhull wrote: »

U.S. officially the Allies after Pearl Harbour (7/12/41). They had bases in England and Northern Ireland, and later France and Italy. Non-biased observers believe that without US help, the war in Europe would have continued for many more years, with no guarantee of an Allied victory

It would have played out very differently indeed. After marching to Berlin the Russians may well have have advanced into France and Italy, it has been speculated that only the nuclear capabilities of the US made them think again about that plan.

jmayo

Sorry OP, but I find it unbelievable that someone. who going by your level of written English, is probably at least in secondary school does not have a cursory idea of who were the main oponents in WWII and when and how it started. :eek:
WWII was one of the biggest events in recorded history and probably the biggest most influential period in the 20th century.
It's after affects are still being felt to this day.

So much for learning from history.

And rather than asking dmc17 where they studied history (it is pretty obvious their response was tongue in cheek or I would truly dispair if it wasn't), I find it hard to believe that no one is batting an eyelid at the questions of the OP.

knucklehead6

jmayo wrote: »

Sorry OP, but I find it unbelievable that someone. who going by your level of written English, is probably at least in secondary school does not have a cursory idea of who were the main oponents in WWII and when and how it started. :eek:
WWII was one of the biggest events in recorded history and probably the biggest most influential period in the 20th century.
It's after affects are still being felt to this day.

So much for learning from history.

And rather than asking dmc17 where they studied history (it is pretty obvious their response was tongue in cheek or I would truly dispair if it wasn't), I find it hard to believe that no one is batting an eyelid at the questions of the OP.

Because sometimes things that we take knowledge of for granted, aren't that obvious. I was drawing (very bad) pictures of Flying Fortress's in 2nd class, would have been able to tell you who were the 'good guys' and who were the 'bad guys' at around the same age. But I was in a household where learning and expanding your education was positively encouraged, and by the time I was 12 or 13 I began to learn that there were just different shades of grey when it came to identifying the good guys and the bad guys.

The OP might not have been so lucky.

TerrorFirmer

I actually have had a girlfriend ask me, twice, after watching Saving Private Ryan, and Flyboys, "So...who won the war?"

Not as far fetched as it may appear, horrifying and all as it is to history buffs like ourselves.

knucklehead6

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

I actually have had a girlfriend ask me, twice, after watching Saving Private Ryan, and Flyboys, "So...who won the war?"

Not as far fetched as it may appear, horrifying and all as it is to history buffs like ourselves.

Yesterday I made a comment about the swastika and how surprised I had been to discover a swastika on the Big Buddha on Lantau island YEARS ago while travelling out in that part of the world.

One of the girls in the office asked me what was a swastika....

I then decided to ask a few others around that section of the office when was the first world war.

1600's
1850
1901
1960
1934

TerrorFirmer

There was some reality TV star recently said that the first world war ended in the 70's.

I remember before at a sort of quiz, a question on the sheet was 'what year did the Nazi party come to power?', girl opposite me stared blankly, and then actually said, "what's the nazzy party?"

Manach

As there is no obvious economic payback for studying history, it has been very much pushed to the sidelines. In the UK, AFAIR from a BBC article, it has been downgraded in importance and simplified to make it more 'relevant'.

jmayo

knucklehead6 wrote: »

Yesterday I made a comment about the swastika and how surprised I had been to discover a swastika on the Big Buddha on Lantau island YEARS ago while travelling out in that part of the world.

One of the girls in the office asked me what was a swastika....

I then decided to ask a few others around that section of the office when was the first world war.

1600's
1850
1901
1960
1934

Ah please stop it.
I might only visit around here now and again, but I have always had a keen interest in history particularly WWII and find it sad that people don't at least have a basic knowledge of some of the facts.

And as you said maybe it was my background.
I had relatives/family friends who had fought in WWII and my father had worked in UK during the war.
Always listened in awe as he described watching the squadrons going out on raids or the experience of listening for cut out sound of doodlebugs, or funny moments like the night of an air raid when the guy he was in digs with jumped into a bath full of cold water for safety.

I guess it all made it personal for me.


And then you find the same people who are pretty ignorant to our recent history will probably be the ones laughing at Americans for their lack of knowledge of the outside world.

Manach

This was originally posted elsewhere on boards, but still ...

mcgragger

sopretty wrote: »

Why was a significant proportion of the US navy fleet sitting in Pearl Harbour?

Thats one of their major pacific bases.

had they been at war before that surely they would have been at sea but definitely having alot of ships on top of each other was a terrible mistake.

mcgragger

the US were indirectly involved before Pearl harbour anyway. They were sending men and equipment to the RAF and the russians.
It was only a matter of time anyway that the Us would get involved from an economic point of view.

The US mainland wasnt under threat given its location on the globe but the economy was finished if Hitler was to dominate the whole of Europe and Japan dominating Asia.

Jawgap

mcgragger wrote: »

Thats one of their major pacific bases.

had they been at war before that surely they would have been at sea but definitely having alot of ships on top of each other was a terrible mistake.

They should've done what the Japanese did.......learn from the Royal Navy's raid on Taranto.

SoapMcTavish

jmayo wrote: »

Ah please stop it.
I might only visit around here now and again, but I have always had a keen interest in history particularly WWII and find it sad that people don't at least have a basic knowledge of some of the facts.

And as you said maybe it was my background.
I had relatives/family friends who had fought in WWII and my father had worked in UK during the war.
Always listened in awe as he described watching the squadrons going out on raids or the experience of listening for cut out sound of doodlebugs, or funny moments like the night of an air raid when the guy he was in digs with jumped into a bath full of cold water for safety.

I guess it all made it personal for me.


And then you find the same people who are pretty ignorant to our recent history will probably be the ones laughing at Americans for their lack of knowledge of the outside world.

I had been to Poland, where I'd gone to visit Auschwitz. My sister ( 35yrs ) had never heard of it when I mentioned where I'd been.
Really don't get that - my parents had me on a diet of reality and history books since I could read. The first books I ever read included Five Chimneys, Anne Frank and Alive (the Andes crash).
Guess some kids just have no interest. But my generation ( I'm 44 ) were raised on action Man / Airfix / Battle, Victor, Warlord etc. We knew the history of WW2 better than most of our parents and are still addicted to the stories, movies, documentaries and books.