AGS and FIRE at Building / Compartment Fires

pauld81

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

I sincerely hope you are not a member of the fire service!

See there you are being petty again..

pauld81

Fire fighters will take controlled risk to save a saveable life.
Fire fighters will take little risk to save property.
Fire fighters will take no risk to save lives or property that are already lost.

Pappa Charlie

pauld81 wrote: »

Fire fighters will take controlled risk to save a saveable life.
Fire fighters will take little risk to save property.
Fire fighters will take no risk to save lives or property that are already lost.

In other words common sense as I said before, next time you have the hose wash that dirty mouth out with a bit of soap!

msg11

You have to weight everything up reasonably in your head. If you can do something do it. If there's any doubt wait for someone that can.

ES are there to protect life. That could mean a Garda doing what a Firefighter should be doing or a Firefighter doing what a Garda should be doing. It's just in each others nature and I would say there is no harm meant by either side in the cross over.

One thing is fire is really unpredictable so if you do enter a building make sure you know your way out. Use your hand on the way in to feel the walls so if it becomes filled with smoke you know your way back out.

pauld81

msg11 wrote: »

You have to weight everything up reasonably in your head. If you can do something do it. If there's any doubt wait for someone that can.

ES are there to protect life. That could mean a Garda doing what a Firefighteur should be doing or a Firefighter doing what a Garda should be doing. It's just in each others nature and I would say there is no harm meant by either side in the cross over.

One thing is fire is really unpredictable so if you do enter a building make sure you know your way out. Use your hand on the way in to feel the walls so if it becomes filled with smoke you know your way back out.

I agree with you about planning a route in smokey environments.
As far as fire fighters doing a Gardai's job, maybe traffic management and control of the scene till safe to hand-over, but ya won't get a fire fighter arresting someone..
One other thing, reasonable for one person, isn't for another. As professionals we need to stick to standard operating guidelines. As general public we can do things different, but a judge may question your decision re your occupation skills/previous knowledge..

apc

dfbemt wrote: »

AGS and FIRE worked together to rescue 2 from apartment over this Christmas. Well done to all involved. As is expected in most rural areas, AGS arrived on scene first.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/mum-and-newborn-rescued-from-apartment-blaze-29878010.html

I do have some concerns though about the actions of AGS at incidents such as this. I fully appreciate what they are trying to do but I have attended some incidents over the years where breaking down a door and allowing air to rapidly enter a compartment with a smouldering fire has resulted in a Backdraught situation. We have often wondered amongst ourselves at incidents just how much the well intentioned actions of AGS have caused a situation to escalate and made conditions worse for FIRE upon their arrival.

AGS are not trained to recognise the signs of Backdraught or indeed Flashover. Either event can result in catastrophic results with serious injury or even loss of life. Youtube is littered with examples of what can happen (Backdraught / Backdraft (US spelling) / Flashover searches). Both events regularly occur, especially with the changes to building methods and construction materials. FIRE are trained to read smoke, to understand what it means when it moves in a certain way, what it means when it is a particular colour.

Why is there not a training program for AGS, delivered by local FIRE instructors, to explain both events in theoretical and practical terms. It would only take a single day at most and would be hugely invaluable for all.

Maybe something for training officers to consider for 2014 training plans?

Again, well done to all involved but big concerns that someday our luck will run out without the provision of proper training.

Great idea but as you see from the replies this thread is full of wannabes whose knowledge of fire and how it acts comes from watching Fireman Sam and Backdraft

bravestar

pauld81 wrote: »

I agree with you about planning a route in smokey environments.
As far as fire fighters doing a Gardai's job, maybe traffic management and control of the scene till safe to hand-over, but ya won't get a fire fighter arresting someone..
One other thing, reasonable for one person, isn't for another. As professionals we need to stick to standard operating guidelines. As general public we can do things different, but a judge may question your decision re your occupation skills/previous knowledge..

A judge is going to question why a Garda jumps into a river or enters a burning building to save someone? Bring it on. That's nothing but PC bulls€it gone mad.

truebluesac

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

You can have all the equipment in the world but if you are not there at the critical time you cannot expect people to stand by and let people die! If you were off duty as a fireman and in the situation and no sign of the fire brigrade what would you do?

Id aggree that if on scene first a difficult decision must be made and indeed standing by can be the hardest thing to do but somtimes the best thing to do .

It is only a matter of time before there are injuries or fatalities from members of AGS and there have been in cases of water rescues . Where for what ever reason a tragic loss of life from serving members have occured .

Personally i understand fire , i have been trained to read fire and its behaviour , i understand ventilated and non ventilation fires and the result of venting an oxygen starved fire , my skills for accessing and egressing building should the conditions change unfavourably have been drilled into me , i also fully know the benifits of my turnout gear , BA set , buddy system and on top of this i have many years experience as a SERVING firefighter , would i go in ??? Depends on the day and whats presented infront of me .

Would i have a better chance of not being hurt due to my experience ? Id like to think so . But again this is my field of expertiese

Shady Tady

I don't recall gardai dying in river rescue or fires in Ireland but I do recall firemen dying in fires R.I.P!

Zambia

Three Victoria police officers and two members of the MFB here in Melbourne were badly injured in a blast at a 2nd floor unit last night.

2 of the officers remain critical. It's not a good day for either service here.

pauld81

Zambia wrote: »

Three Victoria police officers and two members of the MFB here in Melbourne were badly injured in a blast at a 2nd floor unit last night.

2 of the officers remain critical. It's not a good day for either service here.

Best wishes and hope they get well soon..

pauld81

Shady Tady

I'd hate to think our police force wouldn't make every effort to save lives in the absence of the fireservice. Maybe the real question is why are they having to do it on such a regular basis and is it showing up flaws in the service! Maybe that's why some people are so defensive?

pauld81

Shady Tady wrote: »

I'd hate to think our police force wouldn't make every effort to save lives in the absence of the fireservice. Maybe the real question is why are they having to do it on such a regular basis and is it showing up flaws in the service! Maybe that's why some people are so defensive?

Ya right enough shady, if Chiefs and Council Management weren't so keen on targets and reducing costs through ridiculous PDA's, plus CAMP trying to prove it's viability, the fire service might just get a call..

Shady Tady

pauld81 wrote: »

Ya right enough shady, if Chiefs and Council Management weren't so keen on targets and reducing costs through ridiculous PDA's, plus CAMP trying to prove it's viability, the fire service might just get a call..

Well at least it's great to know that our police service are picking up the slack and risking their lives to supplement a fireservice with such problems. Maybe the fireservice needs a complete review from top to bottom in this country to bring it up to scratch!

Paulzx

Shady Tady wrote: »

Well at least it's great to know that our police service are picking up the slack and risking their lives to supplement a fireservice with such problems. Maybe the fireservice needs a complete review from top to bottom in this country to bring it up to scratch!

Any reviews of the Fire Service in Ireland only serve to find and manipulate data and statistics in order to facilitate the downgrading of the fire service. For decades, reports have been cherrypicked in order to act on anything that will save money, irrespective of the effect on service provision. Any recommendations for an increase in cover etc. are convienently ignored.

The utopian fire service for CFO's and county managers is one in which fire appliances never leave the station (except maybe to fit a few smoke alarms).

truebluesac

Shady Tady wrote: »

Well at least it's great to know that our police service are picking up the slack and risking their lives to supplement a fireservice with such problems. Maybe the fireservice needs a complete review from top to bottom in this country to bring it up to scratch!

The Opening post was based on a Dublin senario and the gaurds came across the incident and called it in . As a dublin Based senario where we have a full time service as apposed other parts of the country the turnout time average is 6-7 mins , which is quick ,

There are far more times that the dublin brigade "picking up the slack " waiting on gaurds ar RTA's , nautral occuring deaths ,car fires , and in some cases aggresion towards ambulance and fire crews

This incident for dublin anyway is isolated case , maybe not so much in the country

kub

Just throwing it out here lads, we have a National Ambulance Service, which I am assuming is now centralised as opposed to old health board areas.
We obviously have a National Police force, An Garda Siochana. ( sorry about the lack of fada's).
But we still have a Fire service which is still drawn on local authority area's ( is this the case still in Dublin? ).
A fire service which from the outside appears to have more chiefs than indians, I bet those same bosses earn nice packages.
Why isn't such an important service managed on a National basis with its own budget etc?

pauld81

kub wrote: »

Just throwing it out here lads, we have a National Ambulance Service, which I am assuming is now centralised as opposed to old health board areas.
We obviously have a National Police force, An Garda Siochana. ( sorry about the lack of fada's).
But we still have a Fire service which is still drawn on local authority area's ( is this the case still in Dublin? ).
A fire service which from the outside appears to have more chiefs than indians, I bet those same bosses earn nice packages.
Why isn't such an important service managed on a National basis with its own budget etc?

Ohh where do we begin!!

Your dead right Kub, check out the documents on the National Directorate for Fire and Emergency Management webpage through this link, where recommendations are made to unite the Fire Services of Ireland - http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/Community/FireandEmergencyServices/

Also have a look at IFSEA, they are always advising politicians that there needs to be a single united National Fire Service - http://www.ifesa.ie/

And since the recent failure of the North East ambulance, in Drogheda (Absolutely no fault to the Gardai or Paramedics involved) calls are also being made by Sinn Fein and other councilors to unite the National Ambulance Service and the Fire Service into one body throughout Ireland.

wreckless

a recent example

http://www.yourforum.ie/ashbourne/roundup/articles/2014/01/02/4018932-emergencies-highlight-continuing-ambulance-delays/

"Deputy Tóibín said that if the government departments could get their acts together, and allow the ambulance and fire service to act as one, it would eliminate a lot of problems as the fire service has a better geographical spread and can get to the scene of an emergency very quickly."

and in Donegal too recently.tragic story. were the first responders tasked to it to render first aid.?

ambulance and fire work very well together all over the country when they are allowed to.

and who benefits? the public or person/s who need the help the most.

All first turnout appliances in my co. (retained) all have defibs on board and yet we are not tasked to any cardiac incidents even if ambulance is over 30 minutes from casualty. over a dozen highly trained personnell available at the pager alert to help whoever wherever.

truebluesac

kub wrote: »

Just throwing it out here lads, we have a National Ambulance Service, which I am assuming is now centralised as opposed to old health board areas.
We obviously have a National Police force, An Garda Siochana. ( sorry about the lack of fada's).
But we still have a Fire service which is still drawn on local authority area's ( is this the case still in Dublin? ).
A fire service which from the outside appears to have more chiefs than indians, I bet those same bosses earn nice packages.
Why isn't such an important service managed on a National basis with its own budget etc?

This has been pushed for and asked for , for many years now , pooling resources would cut costs , save money , this has been proposed in many differant guises by the frontline staff who are constantly being cut and exploited whilst the upper ranks sit in their ivory castle ( hope to be there some day )

The problem is that many realise that this would be the end of their possition / job and are despartlily holding on to their bit ,

Similar happened years ago when all the dublin bouros joined forces and as late as the late 90's dunlaoirge merged ,

kub

truebluesac wrote: »

This has been pushed for and asked for , for many years now , pooling resources would cut costs , save money , this has been proposed in many differant guises by the frontline staff who are constantly being cut and exploited whilst the upper ranks sit in their ivory castle ( hope to be there some day )

The problem is that many realise that this would be the end of their possition / job and are despartlily holding on to their bit ,

Similar happened years ago when all the dublin bouros joined forces and as late as the late 90's dunlaoirge merged ,

So we have the HSE looking to cut more from their budget next year and not a whole lot of new fire appliances being purchased.
How come the Ministers have not done this, especially that it will probably save money?

truebluesac

kub wrote: »

So we have the HSE looking to cut more from their budget next year and not a whole lot of new fire appliances being purchased.
How come the Ministers have not done this, especially that it will probably save money?

Jobs for the boys .

And because it makes sence ministers will do the exact opposite ,

At the end of the day each local aurthority has a budget and they want "their man " to controle that budget . This includeds training maintainance , if it were to go on a regional basis who would take responsibility who would be in charge because everyone would be fighting for their corner and their men to be in the custy possitions .

It would be hard work so ministers just ignore it

Raider190

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

Protect life and property!

He must have that tattooed somewhere

Pappa Charlie

Raider190 wrote: »

He must have that tattooed somewhere

That was worth waiting for!!

wreckless

our friends in the uk are doing it

http://www.northamptonchron.co.uk/news/crime/police-and-fire-merger-in-northamptonshire-is-handed-620k-of-home-office-cash-1-5812822