AGS and FIRE at Building / Compartment Fires

dfbemt

AGS and FIRE worked together to rescue 2 from apartment over this Christmas. Well done to all involved. As is expected in most rural areas, AGS arrived on scene first.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/mum-and-newborn-rescued-from-apartment-blaze-29878010.html

I do have some concerns though about the actions of AGS at incidents such as this. I fully appreciate what they are trying to do but I have attended some incidents over the years where breaking down a door and allowing air to rapidly enter a compartment with a smouldering fire has resulted in a Backdraught situation. We have often wondered amongst ourselves at incidents just how much the well intentioned actions of AGS have caused a situation to escalate and made conditions worse for FIRE upon their arrival.

AGS are not trained to recognise the signs of Backdraught or indeed Flashover. Either event can result in catastrophic results with serious injury or even loss of life. Youtube is littered with examples of what can happen (Backdraught / Backdraft (US spelling) / Flashover searches). Both events regularly occur, especially with the changes to building methods and construction materials. FIRE are trained to read smoke, to understand what it means when it moves in a certain way, what it means when it is a particular colour.

Why is there not a training program for AGS, delivered by local FIRE instructors, to explain both events in theoretical and practical terms. It would only take a single day at most and would be hugely invaluable for all.

Maybe something for training officers to consider for 2014 training plans?

Again, well done to all involved but big concerns that someday our luck will run out without the provision of proper training.

bravestar

dfbemt wrote: »

AGS and FIRE worked together to rescue 2 from apartment over this Christmas. Well done to all involved. As is expected in most rural areas, AGS arrived on scene first.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/mum-and-newborn-rescued-from-apartment-blaze-29878010.html

I do have some concerns though about the actions of AGS at incidents such as this. I fully appreciate what they are trying to do but I have attended some incidents over the years where breaking down a door and allowing air to rapidly enter a compartment with a smouldering fire has resulted in a Backdraught situation. We have often wondered amongst ourselves at incidents just how much the well intentioned actions of AGS have caused a situation to escalate and made conditions worse for FIRE upon their arrival.

AGS are not trained to recognise the signs of Backdraught or indeed Flashover. Either event can result in catastrophic results with serious injury or even loss of life. Youtube is littered with examples of what can happen (Backdraught / Backdraft (US spelling) / Flashover searches). Both events regularly occur, especially with the changes to building methods and construction materials. FIRE are trained to read smoke, to understand what it means when it moves in a certain way, what it means when it is a particular colour.

Why is there not a training program for AGS, delivered by local FIRE instructors, to explain both events in theoretical and practical terms. It would only take a single day at most and would be hugely invaluable for all.

Maybe something for training officers to consider for 2014 training plans?

Again, well done to all involved but big concerns that someday our luck will run out without the provision of proper training.

Good idea and something I wouldn't mind attending.

I think members are usually only going in at the early stages of a fire and not when well established. We are all conscious of our own safety but will do everything possible, within reason, to help if there is somebody in danger.

dfbemt

foreign wrote: »

I think members are usually only going in at the early stages of a fire and not when well established. We are all conscious of our own safety but will do everything possible, within reason, to help if there is somebody in danger.

I totally understand why foreign but your post fully explains the point I was making.

The most dangerous fires are the ones which are not visible, say for smoke, and the ones which are not well established !!

dfbemt

dfbemt wrote: »

I totally understand why foreign but your post fully explains the point I was making.

The most dangerous fires are the ones which are not visible, say for smoke, and the ones which are not well established !!

It comes down to human nature though. Can you stand back and do nothing?

lighterman

foreign wrote: »

It comes down to human nature though. Can you stand back and do nothing?

If dfbemt turned up at an armed robbery would you say go and capture them or leave it to the guards.

I think that's the point s/he is making.

Leo Demidov

lighterman wrote: »

If dfbemt turned up at an armed robbery would you say go and capture them or leave it to the guards.

I think that's the point s/he is making.

If dfbemt responds to a bank robbery before the gardai, he may go all kung fu if he so wishes. Good point from the op but i would wonder how often the heroic actions of a Garda have directly contributed to a flashover/backdraft. This information would better identify the need for such training for gardai.

lighterman

wexfjord wrote: »

If dfbemt responds to a bank robbery before the gardai, he may go all kung fu if he so wishes. Good point from the op but i would wonder how often the heroic actions of a Garda have directly contributed to a flashover/backdraft. This information would better identify the need for such training for gardai.

If you look at most of the recent stories with the exception of the last one most involve a "passing" patrol car,not a responding car.

No one said anything about the actions contributing to a flashover/backdraft but would they recognise the signs one is about to happen allowing them time to leave the building or take action.

Pappa Charlie

It's not easy stand by and do nothing and let people die. In rural areas the fire service response realistically isn't always what they would like it to be simply down to distances. I don't recall any members of AGS being fatally injured or maimed in a fire and while that may be luck it also shows a large degree of common sense when dealing with such calls.

lighterman

lighterman wrote: »

If dfbemt turned up at an armed robbery would you say go and capture them or leave it to the guards.

I think that's the point s/he is making.

But they're not turning up after the Gardaí. If they choose to intervene what's the problem? They see and evaluate the risks and act.

I'm not saying Gardaí should be running into fires and not bother waiting for fire brigades but if anyone is in a position to help somebody in danger do you think they'd stand idly by?

lighterman

foreign wrote: »

But they're not turning up after the Gardaí. If they choose to intervene what's the problem? They see and evaluate the risks and act.
You know yourself.Everyone will be heros until something goes wrong then the great hindsight comes in to play.What training did they have.Why didnt they wait on the proper resources let it be fire/guards or ambulance
I'm not saying Gardaí should be running into fires and not bother waiting for fire brigades but if anyone is in a position to help somebody in danger do you think they'd stand idly by?

I agree with your point though.Any one with any civic duty in their blood would do something to help

pauld81

Lads really?? The sooner the National Directorate gets the Fire Service certificates recognised through FETAC the better!
Only Registered Gas Installers are allowed to work on a gas leak in a house. So why do you think that a room full of super hot flammable gasses (smoke) is any different? You would probably be safer entering a room full of gas!
The problem is that soon the general public will think, if a Gardaí can go in and be a hero then I can too, who needs the Fire Service?!
Yes basic fire training should be given to Gardaí, not just for compartment fire, but to a range of first response to incidents, ie: pulling casualties from a car that MIGHT go on fire (air bag dust)..

pauld81

pauld81 wrote: »

Lads really?? The sooner the National Directorate gets the Fire Service certificates recognised through FETAC the better!
Only Registered Gas Installers are allowed to work on a gas leak in a house. So why do you think that a room full of super hot flammable gasses (smoke) is any different? You would probably be safer entering a room full of gas!
The problem is that soon the general public will think, if a Gardaí can go in and be a hero then I can too, who needs the Fire Service?!
Yes basic fire training should be given to Gardaí, not just for compartment fire, but to a range of first response to incidents, ie: pulling casualties from a car that MIGHT go on fire (air bag dust)..

The public already do.

kub

pauld81 wrote: »

Lads really?? The sooner the National Directorate gets the Fire Service certificates recognised through FETAC the better!
Only Registered Gas Installers are allowed to work on a gas leak in a house. So why do you think that a room full of super hot flammable gasses (smoke) is any different? You would probably be safer entering a room full of gas!
The problem is that soon the general public will think, if a Gardaí can go in and be a hero then I can too, who needs the Fire Service?!
Yes basic fire training should be given to Gardaí, not just for compartment fire, but to a range of first response to incidents, ie: pulling casualties from a car that MIGHT go on fire (air bag dust)..

So you would prefer so that if one of my kids was stuck in a burning building that I just wait outside and hope the fire service arrive quickly.

Well my apologies but Mother Nature has other ideas.

Leo Demidov

If a risk assessment and training needs analysis were carried out by the Garda college, i doubt very much that anyone could make a case for training thousands of gardai in how to address a compartment fire. While the severity of a potential injury is high the likelihood of it occurring is extremely low. There are far more important training requirements.

In order to roll out training as described in the op, Garda management would also have to publish a policy and sop's. The policy would most likely state that under no circumstances should a Garda enter a burning building

truebluesac

I have seen AGS hospitalised following entry into buildings on fire due to smoke inhalation .

I have read many accounts throughout the years of AGS drowning or removed AGS near drowning following entry into rivers lakes etc

there is a hugh differance in what the fire service are trained to do and what AGS are trained to do , the biggest differance other than traing is both our PPE.

For AGS its their balisticand stab proof vests , pepper spray and battons

For the fire services its our BA set , our fire proof clothing and for river rescues our bouyancy devices and suits etc

We are like 2 sides of the same coin we co exsist but are different .

Pappa Charlie

truebluesac wrote: »

I have seen AGS hospitalised following entry into buildings on fire due to smoke inhalation .

I have read many accounts throughout the years of AGS drowning or removed AGS near drowning following entry into rivers lakes etc

there is a hugh differance in what the fire service are trained to do and what AGS are trained to do , the biggest differance other than traing is both our PPE.

For AGS its their balisticand stab proof vests , pepper spray and battons

For the fire services its our BA set , our fire proof clothing and for river rescues our bouyancy devices and suits etc

We are like 2 sides of the same coin we co exsist but are different .

You can have all the equipment in the world but if you are not there at the critical time you cannot expect people to stand by and let people die! If you were off duty as a fireman and in the situation and no sign of the fire brigrade what would you do?

pauld81

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

You can have all the equipment in the world but if you are not there at the critical time you cannot expect people to stand by and let people die! If you were off duty as a fireman and in the situation and no sign of the fire brigrade what would you do?

I wouldn't be a stupid testosterone filled idiot, who has lost all situational awareness and run into any situation that I will become a casualty, thus putting more lives at risk..
What's the very first thing you learned on your first aid course? Your safety is paramount! If schools taught first aid and emergency response courses we wouldn't be having this discussion..

Pappa Charlie

pauld81 wrote: »

I wouldn't be a stupid testosterone filled idiot, who has lost all situational awareness and run into any situation that I will become a casualty, thus putting more lives at risk..
What's the very first thing you learned on your first aid course? Your safety is paramount! If schools taught first aid and emergency response courses we wouldn't be having this discussion..

You seem to imply everyone else would be, most of us have families to go home to and the fact that no members have died or been seriously injured proves common sense is used, gardai are well used to making life or death decisions.

pauld81

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

You seem to imply everyone else would be, most of us have families to go home to and the fact that no members have died or been seriously injured proves common sense is used, gardai are well used to making life or death decisions.

Contraction much...?

Leo Demidov

pauld81 wrote: »

Contraction much...?

How far apart are they? I know a guard who can deliver babies.

pauld81

It's great when all is well and healthy, but what about when it goes wrong? Is your mate trained up to date, qualified, registered with PHECC, etc..
Also the legal side is a minefield when you are working professional, you might not have the Good Samaritan act to protect you.

Pappa Charlie

pauld81 wrote: »

It's great when all is well and healthy, but what about when it goes wrong? Is your mate trained up to date, qualified, registered with PHECC, etc..
Also the legal side is a minefield when you are working professional, you might not have the Good Samaritan act to protect you.

I doubt a trapped family will enquire about your PHECC qualifications! Is it more down to individuals not like arriving at a scene discovering that someone else has done their job while everyone was waiting for them to arrive!

pauld81

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

I doubt a trapped family will enquire about your PHECC qualifications! Is it more down to individuals not like arriving at a scene discovering that someone else has done their job while everyone was waiting for them to arrive!

Ouch!! Think you need to put your tampon back in sonny..

Pappa Charlie

pauld81 wrote: »

Ouch!! Think you need to put your tampon back in sonny..

Very nice! Says it all really!

pauld81

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

Very nice! Says it all really!

Actually pappa charlie, you made a no point and just tried to be vindictive toward other services, which I viewed as just being bit#hy.
If you want to contribute to this forum topic please come up with something a little more constructive..

Pappa Charlie

pauld81 wrote: »

Actually pappa charlie, you made a no point and just tried to be vindictive toward other services, which I viewed as just being bit#hy.
If you want to contribute to this forum topic please come up with something a little more constructive..

In your opinion! Your previous post showed your true colours!

pauld81

Is there any standard operating guidelines for Gardai regarding fire, flood, first aid etc...?

Pappa Charlie

pauld81 wrote: »

Is there any standard operating guidelines for Gardai regarding fire, flood, first aid etc...?

Protect life and property!

pauld81

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

Protect life and property!

Even more miss informed rubbish..

Pappa Charlie

pauld81 wrote: »

Even more miss informed rubbish..

I sincerely hope you are not a member of the fire service!

pauld81

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

I sincerely hope you are not a member of the fire service!

See there you are being petty again..

pauld81

Fire fighters will take controlled risk to save a saveable life.
Fire fighters will take little risk to save property.
Fire fighters will take no risk to save lives or property that are already lost.

Pappa Charlie

pauld81 wrote: »

Fire fighters will take controlled risk to save a saveable life.
Fire fighters will take little risk to save property.
Fire fighters will take no risk to save lives or property that are already lost.

In other words common sense as I said before, next time you have the hose wash that dirty mouth out with a bit of soap!

msg11

You have to weight everything up reasonably in your head. If you can do something do it. If there's any doubt wait for someone that can.

ES are there to protect life. That could mean a Garda doing what a Firefighter should be doing or a Firefighter doing what a Garda should be doing. It's just in each others nature and I would say there is no harm meant by either side in the cross over.

One thing is fire is really unpredictable so if you do enter a building make sure you know your way out. Use your hand on the way in to feel the walls so if it becomes filled with smoke you know your way back out.

pauld81

msg11 wrote: »

You have to weight everything up reasonably in your head. If you can do something do it. If there's any doubt wait for someone that can.

ES are there to protect life. That could mean a Garda doing what a Firefighteur should be doing or a Firefighter doing what a Garda should be doing. It's just in each others nature and I would say there is no harm meant by either side in the cross over.

One thing is fire is really unpredictable so if you do enter a building make sure you know your way out. Use your hand on the way in to feel the walls so if it becomes filled with smoke you know your way back out.

I agree with you about planning a route in smokey environments.
As far as fire fighters doing a Gardai's job, maybe traffic management and control of the scene till safe to hand-over, but ya won't get a fire fighter arresting someone..
One other thing, reasonable for one person, isn't for another. As professionals we need to stick to standard operating guidelines. As general public we can do things different, but a judge may question your decision re your occupation skills/previous knowledge..

apc

dfbemt wrote: »

AGS and FIRE worked together to rescue 2 from apartment over this Christmas. Well done to all involved. As is expected in most rural areas, AGS arrived on scene first.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/mum-and-newborn-rescued-from-apartment-blaze-29878010.html

I do have some concerns though about the actions of AGS at incidents such as this. I fully appreciate what they are trying to do but I have attended some incidents over the years where breaking down a door and allowing air to rapidly enter a compartment with a smouldering fire has resulted in a Backdraught situation. We have often wondered amongst ourselves at incidents just how much the well intentioned actions of AGS have caused a situation to escalate and made conditions worse for FIRE upon their arrival.

AGS are not trained to recognise the signs of Backdraught or indeed Flashover. Either event can result in catastrophic results with serious injury or even loss of life. Youtube is littered with examples of what can happen (Backdraught / Backdraft (US spelling) / Flashover searches). Both events regularly occur, especially with the changes to building methods and construction materials. FIRE are trained to read smoke, to understand what it means when it moves in a certain way, what it means when it is a particular colour.

Why is there not a training program for AGS, delivered by local FIRE instructors, to explain both events in theoretical and practical terms. It would only take a single day at most and would be hugely invaluable for all.

Maybe something for training officers to consider for 2014 training plans?

Again, well done to all involved but big concerns that someday our luck will run out without the provision of proper training.

Great idea but as you see from the replies this thread is full of wannabes whose knowledge of fire and how it acts comes from watching Fireman Sam and Backdraft

bravestar

pauld81 wrote: »

I agree with you about planning a route in smokey environments.
As far as fire fighters doing a Gardai's job, maybe traffic management and control of the scene till safe to hand-over, but ya won't get a fire fighter arresting someone..
One other thing, reasonable for one person, isn't for another. As professionals we need to stick to standard operating guidelines. As general public we can do things different, but a judge may question your decision re your occupation skills/previous knowledge..

A judge is going to question why a Garda jumps into a river or enters a burning building to save someone? Bring it on. That's nothing but PC bulls€it gone mad.

truebluesac

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

You can have all the equipment in the world but if you are not there at the critical time you cannot expect people to stand by and let people die! If you were off duty as a fireman and in the situation and no sign of the fire brigrade what would you do?

Id aggree that if on scene first a difficult decision must be made and indeed standing by can be the hardest thing to do but somtimes the best thing to do .

It is only a matter of time before there are injuries or fatalities from members of AGS and there have been in cases of water rescues . Where for what ever reason a tragic loss of life from serving members have occured .

Personally i understand fire , i have been trained to read fire and its behaviour , i understand ventilated and non ventilation fires and the result of venting an oxygen starved fire , my skills for accessing and egressing building should the conditions change unfavourably have been drilled into me , i also fully know the benifits of my turnout gear , BA set , buddy system and on top of this i have many years experience as a SERVING firefighter , would i go in ??? Depends on the day and whats presented infront of me .

Would i have a better chance of not being hurt due to my experience ? Id like to think so . But again this is my field of expertiese

Shady Tady

I don't recall gardai dying in river rescue or fires in Ireland but I do recall firemen dying in fires R.I.P!

Zambia

Three Victoria police officers and two members of the MFB here in Melbourne were badly injured in a blast at a 2nd floor unit last night.

2 of the officers remain critical. It's not a good day for either service here.

pauld81

Zambia wrote: »

Three Victoria police officers and two members of the MFB here in Melbourne were badly injured in a blast at a 2nd floor unit last night.

2 of the officers remain critical. It's not a good day for either service here.

Best wishes and hope they get well soon..

pauld81

Shady Tady

I'd hate to think our police force wouldn't make every effort to save lives in the absence of the fireservice. Maybe the real question is why are they having to do it on such a regular basis and is it showing up flaws in the service! Maybe that's why some people are so defensive?

pauld81

Shady Tady wrote: »

I'd hate to think our police force wouldn't make every effort to save lives in the absence of the fireservice. Maybe the real question is why are they having to do it on such a regular basis and is it showing up flaws in the service! Maybe that's why some people are so defensive?

Ya right enough shady, if Chiefs and Council Management weren't so keen on targets and reducing costs through ridiculous PDA's, plus CAMP trying to prove it's viability, the fire service might just get a call..

Shady Tady

pauld81 wrote: »

Ya right enough shady, if Chiefs and Council Management weren't so keen on targets and reducing costs through ridiculous PDA's, plus CAMP trying to prove it's viability, the fire service might just get a call..

Well at least it's great to know that our police service are picking up the slack and risking their lives to supplement a fireservice with such problems. Maybe the fireservice needs a complete review from top to bottom in this country to bring it up to scratch!

Paulzx

Shady Tady wrote: »

Well at least it's great to know that our police service are picking up the slack and risking their lives to supplement a fireservice with such problems. Maybe the fireservice needs a complete review from top to bottom in this country to bring it up to scratch!

Any reviews of the Fire Service in Ireland only serve to find and manipulate data and statistics in order to facilitate the downgrading of the fire service. For decades, reports have been cherrypicked in order to act on anything that will save money, irrespective of the effect on service provision. Any recommendations for an increase in cover etc. are convienently ignored.

The utopian fire service for CFO's and county managers is one in which fire appliances never leave the station (except maybe to fit a few smoke alarms).

truebluesac

Shady Tady wrote: »

Well at least it's great to know that our police service are picking up the slack and risking their lives to supplement a fireservice with such problems. Maybe the fireservice needs a complete review from top to bottom in this country to bring it up to scratch!

The Opening post was based on a Dublin senario and the gaurds came across the incident and called it in . As a dublin Based senario where we have a full time service as apposed other parts of the country the turnout time average is 6-7 mins , which is quick ,

There are far more times that the dublin brigade "picking up the slack " waiting on gaurds ar RTA's , nautral occuring deaths ,car fires , and in some cases aggresion towards ambulance and fire crews

This incident for dublin anyway is isolated case , maybe not so much in the country

kub

Just throwing it out here lads, we have a National Ambulance Service, which I am assuming is now centralised as opposed to old health board areas.
We obviously have a National Police force, An Garda Siochana. ( sorry about the lack of fada's).
But we still have a Fire service which is still drawn on local authority area's ( is this the case still in Dublin? ).
A fire service which from the outside appears to have more chiefs than indians, I bet those same bosses earn nice packages.
Why isn't such an important service managed on a National basis with its own budget etc?

pauld81

kub wrote: »

Just throwing it out here lads, we have a National Ambulance Service, which I am assuming is now centralised as opposed to old health board areas.
We obviously have a National Police force, An Garda Siochana. ( sorry about the lack of fada's).
But we still have a Fire service which is still drawn on local authority area's ( is this the case still in Dublin? ).
A fire service which from the outside appears to have more chiefs than indians, I bet those same bosses earn nice packages.
Why isn't such an important service managed on a National basis with its own budget etc?

Ohh where do we begin!!

Your dead right Kub, check out the documents on the National Directorate for Fire and Emergency Management webpage through this link, where recommendations are made to unite the Fire Services of Ireland - http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/Community/FireandEmergencyServices/

Also have a look at IFSEA, they are always advising politicians that there needs to be a single united National Fire Service - http://www.ifesa.ie/

And since the recent failure of the North East ambulance, in Drogheda (Absolutely no fault to the Gardai or Paramedics involved) calls are also being made by Sinn Fein and other councilors to unite the National Ambulance Service and the Fire Service into one body throughout Ireland.

wreckless

a recent example

http://www.yourforum.ie/ashbourne/roundup/articles/2014/01/02/4018932-emergencies-highlight-continuing-ambulance-delays/

"Deputy Tóibín said that if the government departments could get their acts together, and allow the ambulance and fire service to act as one, it would eliminate a lot of problems as the fire service has a better geographical spread and can get to the scene of an emergency very quickly."

and in Donegal too recently.tragic story. were the first responders tasked to it to render first aid.?

ambulance and fire work very well together all over the country when they are allowed to.

and who benefits? the public or person/s who need the help the most.

All first turnout appliances in my co. (retained) all have defibs on board and yet we are not tasked to any cardiac incidents even if ambulance is over 30 minutes from casualty. over a dozen highly trained personnell available at the pager alert to help whoever wherever.