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Advantages to renew lease or let tenant run over existing.

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  • 21-12-2013 8:40pm
    #1
    handlemaster
    Registered Users Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭


    What are the benefits/pitfalls for letting a tenant stay over the contract one year lease with no lease. I'm I better to get them to sign a new lease ?


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    #2
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    First off it's the tenant's decision as to whether or not they sign a new lease. Most landlords I would say use a lease for 12 months then transition to part IV and a rolling month to month tenancy. The tenant has established their part IV rights after 6 months anyway and leases generally can't be economically enforced by the landlord should a tenant break one.


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    #3
    handlemaster
    Registered Users Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭handlemaster


    murphaph wrote: »
    First off it's the tenant's decision as to whether or not they sign a new lease. Most landlords I would say use a lease for 12 months then transition to part IV and a rolling month to month tenancy. The tenant has established their part IV rights after 6 months anyway and leases generally can't be economically enforced by the landlord should a tenant break one.


    Of course if the tenant wants to stay !!
    The tenant wants to stay. I'm I better to get them to sign a new contract or not. Whats the best option for ME the landlord.

    what does part four imply ?


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    #4
    petecork
    Registered Users Posts: 83 ✭✭petecork


    handlemaster wrote: »
    Of course if the tenant wants to stay !!
    The tenant wants to stay. I'm I better to get them to sign a new contract or not. Whats the best option for ME the landlord.
    what does part four imply ?
    The tenant chooses if they want to sign a new lease so you cant force them to sign even if thats what you want


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    #5
    Aka Ishur
    Registered Users Posts: 740 ✭✭✭Aka Ishur


    petecork wrote: »
    The tenant chooses if they want to sign a new lease so you cant force them to sign even if thats what you want

    It astounds me how many landlords and even estate agents who think I am having them on when I say I am not going to sign a new lease but stay on Part 4. This is your profession!


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    #6
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,238 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    handlemaster wrote: »
    Of course if the tenant wants to stay !!
    The tenant wants to stay. I'm I better to get them to sign a new contract or not. Whats the best option for ME the landlord.

    what does part four imply ?

    You won't be getting them to sign anything. You can suggest it, but ultimately its up to the tenant as to whether or not they sign a new lease. You can't force a lease upon a tenant and you can't penalise them for not signing one (after they have been there 6 months).

    A fixed term lease offers greater security for both parties in theory. In reality its more beneficial for the tenant than it is for the landlord. Part 4 termination clauses don't apply under a fixed term lease (aside from breach of lease/anti social behaviour) and rent cannot be altered. From a landlords point of view the security offered is more theoretical; a tenant can legally reassign a lease, and even if they bail on a fixed term lease there isn't much that a landlord can do other than deduct from the deposit for lost rent (which must be mitigated quickly).


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    #7
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,821 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    In short, it really makes very little difference for you, the landlord.

    You've got a theoretically guaranteed 12 month tenancy - but as the last poster said, if the tenant changes their mind for whatever reason good luck with enforcing it beyond the deposit.

    I tend to think you get longer tenancies out of a rolling agreement: the tenant isn't thinking "ahh, my lease is up in 2 months, time to start looking around" - but that's purely anecdotal with no evidence behind it.

    And even if you do sign a new fixed term lease, it's possible that the Act's Part 4 notice periods apply anyway, which over time become greater than you'd ever get away with putting into a lease.


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    #8
    gaius c
    Registered Users Posts: 3,528 ✭✭✭gaius c


    Aka Ishur wrote: »
    It astounds me how many landlords and even estate agents who think I am having them on when I say I am not going to sign a new lease but stay on Part 4. This is your profession!

    Some of them know perfectly well but feign ignorance and try to bully the tenants into locking themselves into another 12 months.

    Handlemaster
    A compromise that I proposed before was to sign a copy of the lease with the end date removed.


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    #9
    OldNotWIse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    handlemaster wrote: »
    What are the benefits/pitfalls for letting a tenant stay over the contract one year lease with no lease. I'm I better to get them to sign a new lease ?


    I dont think you can get them to sign a new lease.


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    #10
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,238 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    gaius c wrote: »
    A compromise that I proposed before was to sign a copy of the lease with the end date removed.

    Theres no real point in doing this unless the terms of the lease are changing. When a fixed term lease ends and rolls over to a part 4 tenancy, the terms of the original lease still remain valid, so signing a further open ended lease would not make any difference.


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    #11
    handlemaster
    Registered Users Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭handlemaster


    Good points thanks for the replies


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    #12
    gaius c
    Registered Users Posts: 3,528 ✭✭✭gaius c


    djimi wrote: »
    Theres no real point in doing this unless the terms of the lease are changing. When a fixed term lease ends and rolls over to a part 4 tenancy, the terms of the original lease still remain valid, so signing a further open ended lease would not make any difference.

    When dealing with people who are convinced that the whole Part 4 thing is a stroke of some sort, it's a useful exercise. Threshold suggest it whenever it comes up.


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    #13
    Iggy154
    Registered Users Posts: 42 ✭Iggy154


    My landlord told me that if I didn';t sign for another 12 months, he would hav e to sell the house. He siad he had to be guaranteed another 12 months rent. I didn't want to move at that time so IO had no choice but to sign.


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    #14
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,238 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    Iggy154 wrote: »
    My landlord told me that if I didn';t sign for another 12 months, he would hav e to sell the house. He siad he had to be guaranteed another 12 months rent. I didn't want to move at that time so IO had no choice but to sign.

    What a ridiculous threat! I'd have called his bluff and see what happens.


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    #15
    Iggy154
    Registered Users Posts: 42 ✭Iggy154


    djimi wrote: »
    What a ridiculous threat! I'd have called his bluff and see what happens.

    Easy to say that. Not so easy to contemplate running around for weeks with no car and a boss who makes no allowances for personal difficulties (including making and taking phone calls) seeking new accommodation and who will be insisting on a 12 month lease anyway.


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    #16
    Scortho
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,876 ✭✭✭Scortho


    Iggy154 wrote: »
    Easy to say that. Not so easy to contemplate running around for weeks with no car and a boss who makes no allowances for personal difficulties (including making and taking phone calls) seeking new accommodation and who will be insisting on a 12 month lease anyway.

    He wouldn't have been able to terminate it though as you'd have been on part 4 without giving adequate notice and a valid reason. I'd have called his bluff.


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    #17
    Iggy154
    Registered Users Posts: 42 ✭Iggy154


    Scortho wrote: »
    He wouldn't have been able to terminate it though as you'd have been on part 4 without giving adequate notice and a valid reason. I'd have called his bluff.

    Selling is a valid reason! Call his bluff, get handed my notice and sign up for 12 months anyway, with someone else, after weeks of misery. Some plan.


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    #18
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,238 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    Intending to sell is not a valid reason. Only if a sale is imminent can the landlord terminate the lease. I'd actually take pleasure in watching a landlord sell a property just to spite me!


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    #19
    Scortho
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,876 ✭✭✭Scortho


    Iggy154 wrote: »
    Selling is a valid reason! Call his bluff, get handed my notice and sign up for 12 months anyway, with someone else, after weeks of misery. Some plan.

    I'd have called his bluff because I've a good feeling that the landlord wasn't going to sell. He only used it to convince you to sign again.


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    #20
    Iggy154
    Registered Users Posts: 42 ✭Iggy154


    djimi wrote: »
    Intending to sell is not a valid reason. Only if a sale is imminent can the landlord terminate the lease. I'd actually take pleasure in watching a landlord sell a property just to spite me!

    Intending to sell is a valid reason. I would take no pleasure in flat hunting to find out!


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    #21
    Iggy154
    Registered Users Posts: 42 ✭Iggy154


    Scortho wrote: »
    I'd have called his bluff because I've a good feeling that the landlord wasn't going to sell. He only used it to convince you to sign again.

    I would prefer to rely on my logic than your good feelings.


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    #22
    Scortho
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,876 ✭✭✭Scortho


    Iggy154 wrote: »
    I would prefer to rely on my logic than your good feelings.

    Fair enough. Everyone's different and I'd have preferred my logic. If the landlord wanted to sell, he'd have put the property on the market anyway. But he hasn't.


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    #23
    Iggy154
    Registered Users Posts: 42 ✭Iggy154


    Scortho wrote: »
    Fair enough. Everyone's different and I'd have preferred my logic. If the landlord wanted to sell, he'd have put the property on the market anyway. But he hasn't.

    I don't see you logic. I never said the landlord intended to sell, so the fact that he hadn't put the house on the market is irrelevant.


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    #24
    Scortho
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,876 ✭✭✭Scortho


    Iggy154 wrote: »
    I don't see you logic. I never said the landlord intended to sell, so the fact that he hadn't put the house on the market is irrelevant.
    Iggy154 wrote: »
    My landlord told me that if I didn';t sign for another 12 months, he would hav e to sell the house. He siad he had to be guaranteed another 12 months rent. I didn't want to move at that time so IO had no choice but to sign.

    you did :confused:


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    #25
    Iggy154
    Registered Users Posts: 42 ✭Iggy154


    Scortho wrote: »
    you did :confused:

    I did not. The intention to sell would only manifest itself if I didn't sign the lease.
    That is what I said.


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    #26
    Scortho
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,876 ✭✭✭Scortho


    Iggy154 wrote: »
    I did not. The intention to sell would only manifest itself if I didn't sign the lease.
    That is what I said.

    He told you he intended to sell if you didn't renew the lease. If he was going to sell he'd have put it on the market when you signed the new lease anyway. Just because you've signed a new lease doesn't mean he can't sell.


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    #27
    cerastes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,601 ✭✭✭cerastes


    gaius c wrote: »
    Some of them know perfectly well but feign ignorance and try to bully the tenants into locking themselves into another 12 months.

    Handlemaster
    A compromise that I proposed before was to sign a copy of the lease with the end date removed.

    As part IV would apply, the tenant would not be bullied into staying 12 months, they would have the rights and obligations of Part 4 as the landlord would.
    djimi wrote: »
    Theres no real point in doing this unless the terms of the lease are changing. When a fixed term lease ends and rolls over to a part 4 tenancy, the terms of the original lease still remain valid, so signing a further open ended lease would not make any difference.

    If the terms of the lease or any part of it are changing, surely a new lease would be a requirement, say for example the rent amount. I'd have to see something in writing to say either party couldn't insist on lease to cover themselves to say what they are agreeing to, both parties already have the rights and obligations of part 4 to comply to anyway.


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    #28
    Iggy154
    Registered Users Posts: 42 ✭Iggy154


    Scortho wrote: »
    He told you he intended to sell if you didn't renew the lease. If he was going to sell he'd have put it on the market when you signed the new lease anyway. Just because you've signed a new lease doesn't mean he can't sell.

    He would sell if I didn't sign the lease. I signed the lease so he didn't. He can sell if he wants but if he has a lease signed he doesn't want to. You are trying to fit the facts to your theory.


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    #29
    Scortho
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,876 ✭✭✭Scortho


    Iggy154 wrote: »
    He would sell if I didn't sign the lease. I signed the lease so he didn't. He can sell if he wants but if he has a lease signed he doesn't want to. You are trying to fit the facts to your theory.

    He would sell if you didn't sign the lease and he still can sell. Im saying that if he was serious about selling if you didn't renew the lease, then he'd be serious about selling anyway.
    The fact remains that he can turn around next week and put your home on the market


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    #30
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,821 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    I'm with Iggy: sometimes pragmatism triumphs the letter of the law.


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    #31
    Iggy154
    Registered Users Posts: 42 ✭Iggy154


    Scortho wrote: »
    He would sell if you didn't sign the lease and he still can sell. Im saying that if he was serious about selling if you didn't renew the lease, then he'd be serious about selling anyway.
    The fact remains that he can turn around next week and put your home on the market

    I never said he couldn't sell but if he was intending to do that he wouldn't sign a lease himself. It is easier to sell with vacant possession.


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