Wind farm policy

zombieland

Hi guys, I'm from a rural area and have just moved home recently. Where I live there has been a policy of planting trees on all available land. When I was a kid at night you could see lights all over our little valley from farm houses dotted around, I can now see just 1. The houses remain but can no longer be seen through the trees. I feel the wind farm policy i Ireland is being handled in the same ham-fisted manner as the planting of trees was in the past.

I am pro-wind energy, purley from an environmental point of view. I have small kids and would like to see a better planet left for them.

If you look at the policies adopted by the likes of Germany an the Netherlands it is community orientated. A quote I heard from a community member in one of those countries was "If a neighbour puts up a wind turbine it is a problem, if you own a part of it it is an asset", I am paraphrasing slightly but you get the message. One turbine supplied 650 houses, that would mean six would supply our local village and every house and farm in the surrounding area, and still some surplus to sell back into the national grid.

Instead of private companies setting up monster farms it should be local communities setting up their own farms and running them. If the Govt really had the citizens in mind this is the way they would be going with this.

And before anyone asks, I would not mind living close to a turbine, I'm not a million miles away from a wind farm as it is. It would be nice to own a piece of it though.

Old diesel

zombieland wrote: »

Hi guys, I'm from a rural area and have just moved home recently. Where I live there has been a policy of planting trees on all available land. When I was a kid at night you could see lights all over our little valley from farm houses dotted around, I can now see just 1. The houses remain but can no longer be seen through the trees. I feel the wind farm policy i Ireland is being handled in the same ham-fisted manner as the planting of trees was in the past.

I am pro-wind energy, purley from an environmental point of view. I have small kids and would like to see a better planet left for them.

If you look at the policies adopted by the likes of Germany an the Netherlands it is community orientated. A quote I heard from a community member in one of those countries was "If a neighbour puts up a wind turbine it is a problem, if you own a part of it it is an asset", I am paraphrasing slightly but you get the message. One turbine supplied 650 houses, that would mean six would supply our local village and every house and farm in the surrounding area, and still some surplus to sell back into the national grid.

Instead of private companies setting up monster farms it should be local communities setting up their own farms and running them. If the Govt really had the citizens in mind this is the way they would be going with this.

And before anyone asks, I would not mind living close to a turbine, I'm not a million miles away from a wind farm as it is. It would be nice to own a piece of it though.

Good points well made - was just thinking the other week - how if a community had their own well planned turbines - they could be something a community might be PROUD to have.

A key advantage of a community wind farm - is that a community can plan the turbines in a way that suits THEIR community - thus making them more agreeable locally.

Much better than having Mainstream, Element, Bord na Mona and co just slotting turbines in with little consideration for neighbouring properties/residences.

Needs more debate I think

Old diesel

zombieland wrote: »

Hi guys, I'm from a rural area and have just moved home recently. Where I live there has been a policy of planting trees on all available land. When I was a kid at night you could see lights all over our little valley from farm houses dotted around, I can now see just 1. The houses remain but can no longer be seen through the trees. I feel the wind farm policy i Ireland is being handled in the same ham-fisted manner as the planting of trees was in the past.

I am pro-wind energy, purley from an environmental point of view. I have small kids and would like to see a better planet left for them.

If you look at the policies adopted by the likes of Germany an the Netherlands it is community orientated. A quote I heard from a community member in one of those countries was "If a neighbour puts up a wind turbine it is a problem, if you own a part of it it is an asset", I am paraphrasing slightly but you get the message. One turbine supplied 650 houses, that would mean six would supply our local village and every house and farm in the surrounding area, and still some surplus to sell back into the national grid.

Instead of private companies setting up monster farms it should be local communities setting up their own farms and running them. If the Govt really had the citizens in mind this is the way they would be going with this.

And before anyone asks, I would not mind living close to a turbine, I'm not a million miles away from a wind farm as it is. It would be nice to own a piece of it though.

You might be interested in this

http://www.neilstonwindfarm.org/

Small town in Scotland developed a wind farm with 4 turbines in partnership - the vision they have for their town - is a blueprint Rural towns in Ireland would do well to consider - even if its not through a wind farm.

Part of the aim of the community involvement in the wind farm - was to try and use the income to drive the actual town forward.

A long way from the wind farm thinking in Ireland.

And your 100 percent right - the planning of wind farms in Ireland is quite ham fisted - and to my mind - isn't anything like as well thought out as it should be.

Turbines do have their flaws like every other technology - but a lot of the issues with them over here - isn't so much turbines themselves - but how Ireland plans them - or doesn't plant them .

Ive no problem though in saying that turbine technology DOES NEED to improve further - for superior performance - and thus reducing the amount of turbines that are needed to produce a given level of power.

Think community wind farms could help make that happen - because it looks much more attractive for a community if you could make the desired level of power - from say (for example) 4 turbines rather then say 7.

You may also find that for a communities - a suitable site may take 4 - but not 7 turbines - and that may enable a project to be developed in a way that fits in well with pleasant community living.

That sort of thinking would help drive turbine technology forward in the future

fclauson

Old diesel wrote: »

You might be interested in this

...

And your 100 percent right - the planning of wind farms in Ireland is quite ham fisted - and to my mind - isn't anything like as well thought out as it should be.

very true

Turbines do have their flaws like every other technology - but a lot of the issues with them over here - isn't so much turbines themselves - but how Ireland plans them - or doesn't plant them .

very very true

zombieland

All good points fol;ks, but I mis-calculated (pass maths for the leavin yrs ago sorry) ity would not take double digit turbines to power our community here, only two, of a similar type to the German model.....only four would supply the community and supply a sufficient surplus to send the Dublin way.........

A quote I heard in primary school was from Otto Von Bismark once again I paraphrase "If the Dutch had Ireland they would feed the World.....if the Irish had Holland they would sink it" I hated that quote until I travelled a little and realised how it is done in other countries. I think for a little country we should be working more together to fin solutions to sustain us for the future. I know, I am a bit of an idealist, even at my age.

Old diesel

zombieland wrote: »

All good points fol;ks, but I mis-calculated (pass maths for the leavin yrs ago sorry) ity would not take double digit turbines to power our community here, only two, of a similar type to the German model.....only four would supply the community and supply a sufficient surplus to send the Dublin way.........

A quote I heard in primary school was from Otto Von Bismark once again I paraphrase "If the Dutch had Ireland they would feed the World.....if the Irish had Holland they would sink it" I hated that quote until I travelled a little and realised how it is done in other countries. I think for a little country we should be working more together to fin solutions to sustain us for the future. I know, I am a bit of an idealist, even at my age.

Absolutely we should be working together - the operative word been "together".

We aren't going to get anywhere with poorly thought out Govt plans - need better long term planning - with public participation been a key element of it.

As members of the public - its important I think that we can shape the best possible future for ourselves and our communities - and ultimately in terms of things like wind energy - that's a key step forward

Markcheese

Good points well made - was just thinking the other week - how if a community had their own well planned turbines - they could be something a community might be PROUD to have.

A key advantage of a community wind farm - is that a community can plan the turbines in a way that suits THEIR community - thus making them more agreeable locally.

Much better than having Mainstream, Element, Bord na Mona and co just slotting turbines in with little consideration for neighbouring properties/residences.





So how would communities stick turbines near some homes but not near others, or put turbines on one local farmers land in

Old diesel

Markcheese wrote: »

Good points well made - was just thinking the other week - how if a community had their own well planned turbines - they could be something a community might be PROUD to have.

A key advantage of a community wind farm - is that a community can plan the turbines in a way that suits THEIR community - thus making them more agreeable locally.

Much better than having Mainstream, Element, Bord na Mona and co just slotting turbines in with little consideration for neighbouring properties/residences.





So how would communities stick turbines near some homes but not near others, or put turbines on one local farmers land in

Its a fair point Mark - and I think a key step forward would be to drive the technology forward so you need less turbines in the first place.

Turbines DO have to go somewhere - but youd have a better chance of achieving a better planned solution in terms of pleasant community living - if local communities are actually planning the projects.

At the moment development is been pushed by people who basically don't actually seem to recognise that houses and communities are there - and whose response to the challenges in planning created by Irelands love of one off housing - is to simply pretend they aren't there.

You may not have a solution that is 100 percent perfect for everyone (which obviously raises the question of how much sacrifice should SOME communities make - for the betterment of everyone else).

But if a community WORKS together well (a very big IF I admit) - then they at least have control over what comes into their area - and can plan their project in a way that works well for AS MANY people as POSSIBLE.

I think the siting issues - ie been closer to some house compared to others - is the sort of issue that would potentially dictate the size of a wind farm project a community may plan. It may be for example that for a particular community a 2 to 3 turbine project may be the prudent and sensible option in terms of what can be done in terms of good planning in terms of reducing impact on their everyday living in their community.

The thing is though - if you've got wind farm developers and Mr Fat Rabbite setting the agenda - a community may be stuck with a 20 turbine project.

Plan it themselves - and they have the opportunity to plan a project that suits THEM - so opting for the smaller scale project - as they are looking at what suits THEIR community.

Of course community projects for energy - like community wind farms - are not a perfect solution. Which raises the question - how do we plan our energy solutions in the future - and how do we integrate them well into pleasant community living

Long term - we may need to look at how we live in communities.

So for example - if you had 200 one off houses in an area of countryside - should we make say a new village/built up settlement of these houses.

What I mean is do you say - okay - have people move into village type settlements - thus freeing up some of the space where their old houses are - for things like wind turbines.

Im not saying that's the way forward - but if wind energy is the way forward - we may have to look at how we live with it - and how our community living fits in with it

Some say that the big issue with our planning of pylons and wind turbines - is that we have too many one off housing - and effectively live would be very easy if those pesky one off houses weren't there - and then we could be like Holland and Germany and all would be rosy.

Personally I don't think its as simple as that - and believe that the solution is to DESIGN solutions that work for the Irish situation - and drive technology forward - as a way of addressing planning issues.

That assumes we want to plan correctly in future - in a way that is fair to communities.

Two wrongs never made a right imo

Markcheese

Or just say because all the houses are dispersed there's a set level of nuisance and once the wind farm doesn't go above at your back door then tough...
Although I'm not sure that bigger and fewer turbines is always the way to go,
It must suit financially, but greater noise and more physically imposing may not suit communities...

Old diesel

Markcheese wrote: »

Or just say because all the houses are dispersed there's a set level of nuisance and once the wind farm doesn't go above at your back door then tough...
Although I'm not sure that bigger and fewer turbines is always the way to go,
It must suit financially, but greater noise and more physically imposing may not suit communities...

my thinking on bigger BUT fewer turbines - would be to drive the tech forward so that the bigger one doesn't neccessarly make more noise - or alternatively - you have a group of turbines producing (for example) 50 percent more power per turbine - but the noise/discomfort is actually reduced - because less of them are actually there.

Your right on physically imposing - but the counterargument is - would 4 turbines - even though bigger - be less imposing overall than say 10 more typically sized turbines???

What would be the noise/discomfort if you only had 4 instead of 8 turbines??? even if the 4 were bigger.

The other point is - how much bigger would you have to go - personally I do think that the technology DOES need to progress in a manner that sees LESS turbines required to produce a set amount of power in the future.

Id like to think of it in terms of a van vs a truck - the van would be quieter than the truck - although obviously it carries less.

if you have one truck carrying 20 tonne - and 20 vans carrying one tonne - which produces less noise overall - 1 truck or 20 vans.

bad example I know - but hopefully you get my logic - I am however far from a wind turbine expert

The set level of nuisance concept is interesting - if you had the RIGHT type of measurement - based on good sound science - this in itself could address concerns.

For example some people say infrasounds can be an issue - so what limits of infrasounds inside a house would ensure pleasant comfortable living in that house???.

I suppose what we want to aim for in the planning - no matter whether its a community owned wind farm - or indeed a wind developer led operation - what we should try to aim for - is to ensure pleasant living can continue - and to be able to give residents the confidence that they can continue to live happily when the turbines are operational.

And to then deliver on the expectations that led to the confidence been built in the first place.

I suppose what id like overall is to try an create the best possible future for communities - and in particular host communities of a wind farm.

I don't want wind farms to be something THATS bad* for a community and causes it issues - this hampers acceptance of wind farms - and doesn't help the drive towards renewables - imo

*bad as in - the community goes downhill due to wind farm - and people no longer want to live in a community that was previously very pleasant to live in.

Jim Martin

Old diesel wrote: »

my thinking on bigger BUT fewer turbines - would be to drive the tech forward so that the bigger one doesn't neccessarly make more noise - or alternatively - you have a group of turbines producing (for example) 50 percent more power per turbine - but the noise/discomfort is actually reduced - because less of them are actually there.

Your right on physically imposing - but the counterargument is - would 4 turbines - even though bigger - be less imposing overall than say 10 more typically sized turbines???

What would be the noise/discomfort if you only had 4 instead of 8 turbines??? even if the 4 were bigger.

The other point is - how much bigger would you have to go - personally I do think that the technology DOES need to progress in a manner that sees LESS turbines required to produce a set amount of power in the future.

Id like to think of it in terms of a van vs a truck - the van would be quieter than the truck - although obviously it carries less.

if you have one truck carrying 20 tonne - and 20 vans carrying one tonne - which produces less noise overall - 1 truck or 20 vans.

bad example I know - but hopefully you get my logic - I am however far from a wind turbine expert

The set level of nuisance concept is interesting - if you had the RIGHT type of measurement - based on good sound science - this in itself could address concerns.

For example some people say infrasounds can be an issue - so what limits of infrasounds inside a house would ensure pleasant comfortable living in that house???.

I suppose what we want to aim for in the planning - no matter whether its a community owned wind farm - or indeed a wind developer led operation - what we should try to aim for - is to ensure pleasant living can continue - and to be able to give residents the confidence that they can continue to live happily when the turbines are operational.

And to then deliver on the expectations that led to the confidence been built in the first place.

I suppose what id like overall is to try an create the best possible future for communities - and in particular host communities of a wind farm.

I don't want wind farms to be something THATS bad* for a community and causes it issues - this hampers acceptance of wind farms - and doesn't help the drive towards renewables - imo

*bad as in - the community goes downhill due to wind farm - and people no longer want to live in a community that was previously very pleasant to live in.

This is what has happened here in W.Clare - & it's not at all nice!

Jim Martin

Old diesel wrote: »

You might be interested in this

http://www.neilstonwindfarm.org/

Small town in Scotland developed a wind farm with 4 turbines in partnership - the vision they have for their town - is a blueprint Rural towns in Ireland would do well to consider - even if its not through a wind farm.

Part of the aim of the community involvement in the wind farm - was to try and use the income to drive the actual town forward.

A long way from the wind farm thinking in Ireland.

And your 100 percent right - the planning of wind farms in Ireland is quite ham fisted - and to my mind - isn't anything like as well thought out as it should be.

Turbines do have their flaws like every other technology - but a lot of the issues with them over here - isn't so much turbines themselves - but how Ireland plans them - or doesn't plant them .

Ive no problem though in saying that turbine technology DOES NEED to improve further - for superior performance - and thus reducing the amount of turbines that are needed to produce a given level of power.

Think community wind farms could help make that happen - because it looks much more attractive for a community if you could make the desired level of power - from say (for example) 4 turbines rather then say 7.

You may also find that for a communities - a suitable site may take 4 - but not 7 turbines - and that may enable a project to be developed in a way that fits in well with pleasant community living.

That sort of thinking would help drive turbine technology forward in the future

An Taisce had a project, 'Kulyana', for developing local community schemes, one of which was anaerobic digesters for dealing with surplus organic waste, such as the big problem of slurry with its inherant polution problems! 3 birds could be killed with one stone - 1) waste disposal, 2) power generation from gasses produced, 3) fertilizer produced from left-over organic matter (muck spreading - much better than concentrated slurry)!

Jim Martin

Jim Martin wrote: »

This is what has happened here in W.Clare - & it's not at all nice!

But then I guess hard-faced business was never, ever about being nice - despite what their ridiculous advertising tries to lead you to believe (which you have to pay for if you buy their product as it's built into the sale price)!

Old diesel

Jim Martin wrote: »

This is what has happened here in W.Clare - & it's not at all nice!

You mean community has gone downhill due to windfarm - and is no longer as nice to live in due to wind farm????.

By all means tell us more - could be a VERY useful contribution to the discussion.

fclauson

Now the submissions are in please take a look at some of the following:

(number 5 being probably the very best document of them all)

1 - http://environ.ie/en/DevelopmentHousing/PlanningDevelopment/Planning/PublicConsultations/Submissions-WindEnergy/Cork/FileDownLoad,36530,en.pdf

2 - http://environ.ie/en/DevelopmentHousing/PlanningDevelopment/Planning/PublicConsultations/Submissions-WindEnergy/Cork/FileDownLoad,36529,en.pdf

3 - http://environ.ie/en/DevelopmentHousing/PlanningDevelopment/Planning/PublicConsultations/Submissions-WindEnergy/Cork/FileDownLoad,36527,en.pdf

4 - http://environ.ie/en/DevelopmentHousing/PlanningDevelopment/Planning/PublicConsultations/Submissions-WindEnergy/Cork/FileDownLoad,36526,en.pdf

5 - http://environ.ie/en/DevelopmentHousing/PlanningDevelopment/Planning/PublicConsultations/Submissions-WindEnergy/Cork/FileDownLoad,36525,en.pdf

Jim Martin

Old diesel wrote: »

You mean community has gone downhill due to windfarm - and is no longer as nice to live in due to wind farm????.

By all means tell us more - could be a VERY useful contribution to the discussion.

Exactly - I just don't want to open my mouth anymore as I feel everyone is waiting for everyone else to make the next move & nobody seems to trust their neighbours anymore!

Old diesel

It all raises the questions

1) What is a sensible limit to the amount of turbines to have in the country

2) what is a safe setback - that residents and communities can have confidence in

3) Should we write off some communities - move the people out - and move wind turbines in

4) should we abandon export projects completely and develop alternatives in terms of jobs/industry.

5) can wind turbine technology be improved - so that a) less turbines are needed (more power per turbine and b) turbines produce less noise - and perhaps more importantly - reduced infrasounds/low frequency noise

6) should we continue working to develop alternatives - for example offshore turbines, floating turbines, wave energy, biomass, biogas etc.

7) what is the way forward for communities - in terms of achieving the best possible future for themselves - and what is the best way forward for a decent country looking to achieve the best quality of life for its people while also achieving a secure energy supply.

Definitely requires much more public debate and discussion - and lots of work to create solutions that work

fclauson

Interesting

I have the copies of these letteres received under AIE

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/warning-over-wind-turbine-syndrome-260636.html

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/senior-doctor-defends-wind-turbine-syndrome-conclusions-261026.html#.Uxgjt5MvInQ.twitter

Old diesel

In the new era of wind energy - I was just wondering what do we all think is the way forward - in terms of having wind farms and communities living next to each other happily.

Communities often don't like wind farms - but we NEED energy and we need to have 42.5 percent of our electricity coming from renewable sources by 2020 under our EU targets.

how do we get a balance between hitting our targets which is the top priority - and also if possible trying to get the planning right and try to be as fair as possible to communities.

I say as fair as possible - because obviously the wind farms have to go somewhere - so they will end up in communities all over Ireland - and in fact already are.

Whats the best way to plan for community living - AND wind farms

Its a big challenge imo

ted1

Communities need energy, how much and when they need it is the issue.

most Communities loads can be reduced greatly by simply replacing obsolete energy intensive consumers.

replace all public and private lighting with low energy lighting, install CHP's plants in all leisure centres, buildings etc (where there is a requirement for heat and electricity possibly look at trigeneration)

where social housing and in deed private housing, look at using district heating systems.

apportion spare land to providing space for growing bio mass material.

Subsidize or introduce PAYS so as all in efficient appliances and boilers etc are replaced.


now that the demand is greatly reduced the Communities need to look at their requirement and how to achieve this, a turbine that blows at night in winter is not much good to them during July and August, a more reliable method need to be sourced, a mix of Wind, PV, Hydro, biomass, waste recovery all need to be looked at.

Communities putting all their eggs in the wind basket will not solve any issue.

Old diesel

ted1 wrote: »

Communities need energy, how much and when they need it is the issue.

most Communities loads can be reduced greatly by simply replacing obsolete energy intensive consumers.

replace all public and private lighting with low energy lighting, install CHP's plants in all leisure centres, buildings etc (where there is a requirement for heat and electricity possibly look at trigeneration)

where social housing and in deed private housing, look at using district heating systems.

apportion spare land to providing space for growing bio mass material.

Subsidize or introduce PAYS so as all in efficient appliances and boilers etc are replaced.


now that the demand is greatly reduced the Communities need to look at their requirement and how to achieve this, a turbine that blows at night in winter is not much good to them during July and August, a more reliable method need to be sourced, a mix of Wind, PV, Hydro, biomass, waste recovery all need to be looked at.

Communities putting all their eggs in the wind basket will not solve any issue.

Very good points

Part of the issue though - is that for a Rural community - they will be producing energy for other areas such as Dublin.

So a Nationwide audit of power requirements would be needed.

Your point on communities not putting all their eggs in the Wind basket - is a very good one - and I think is applicable to the WHOLE country.

What can be done in terms of Biogas is debatable - but it does merit consideration I think

Old diesel

One of the concerns I have with Wind Farm policy - is that to me - its like the way wind farms are planned - looks at communities as just been a place to put the wind turbines.

This in my view - is something to try and avoid - we need to look at communities as places of COMMUNITY - where people live and work - and do the best that can be done to reflect this in the planning.

The other big issue - is how do we calculate a setback between homes and the turbines - that allows safe comfortable/pleasant living for residents in these homes.

You've got Westmeath County Councillors voting in a setback of 10 times the height of the Turbine - but Jan O Sullivan is sticking firmly to the 500 metre setback.

Both can't be right - so it comes down to what is good planning - and how do we calculate a setback distance that works well for residents.