Wind farm policy

fclauson

The wind farm policy is being updated http://www.environ.ie/en/DevelopmentHousing/PlanningDevelopment/Planning/PublicConsultations/

What would be peoples comments as to the proposed changes ?

Old diesel

I think its about time someone actually thought about how 2,000 185 metre turbines in just 5 counties would actually impact on the countryside and communities in those 5 counties.

The way they are handling that particular issue at the moment suggests that they see the Midlands as a nothing place - and is seen thus as a place where you can put lots of turbines.

If you saw the Midlands in a positive light - ie you thought the Midlands as a nice place (I think it is from what ive seen of it) - then youd plan the project in a completely different light - looking at addressing community concerns.

And ensuring that the project is planned in a way that the turbines will fit in very well with communities that are pleasant to live in - and where a community was a pleasant place to live - before turbines - it will still be a very nice place to live after turbines get up and running.

The proposals on shadow flicker are welcome - at least they've recognised that issue and have something in place.

Sadly - I see Jan O Sullivan appears not to have looked at the issue of whether the distance should be increased from a house - when you have a 185 metre turbine.

I fear that communities are less important then 185 metre turbines - so to ensure as many as possible can be squeezed in - to every available little corner - they will go for 185 metre turbines at 500 metres because the priority is keeping the developer happy rather then aim for good planning guidelines aimed at ensuring turbines where installed are operated in a community - in a manner that is conducive to pleasant community living and a good quality of live in a rural environment - plus keeping the irish countryside looking beautiful even with turbines there.

She does seem to be talking of extra guidelines on the Midlands - or other export of wind type projects - but very much doubt that will entail coming up with the best solution for communities in terms of what distance a 185 metre turbine should be from a house.

Think Govt and wind developers would rather buy some houses if issues arise rather then plan properly in first place.

In case it isn't obvious already - im not particularly impressed tbh

Greensleeves

The guidelines are open for consultation (I think) until February so it will be interesting to see if that yields any changes. Any input from local communities has been totally ignored so far so I wouldn't hold out much hope. I think the following statement from Friends of the Irish Environment sums it up: Revised Wind Farm Guidelines will do nothing.

http://www.friendsoftheirishenvironment.net/index.php?do=friendswork&action=view&id=1114

Old diesel

Oh and yes - I see no mention of anything in the guidelines to address Ruby Walshs concerns that he expressed recently (just over a week ago) on the impact of wind turbines on the horse industry.

Macha

Old diesel wrote: »

Oh and yes - I see no mention of anything in the guidelines to address Ruby Walshs concerns that he expressed recently (just over a week ago) on the impact of wind turbines on the horse industry.

Why, should they?

Old diesel

Macha wrote: »

Why, should they?

Why shouldn't they

Not saying Ruby is right - but if your a Govt and your planning a particular project - and a leader in a particular industry comes along to say that they have concerns about this project - to the extend that they feel their industry is under treat from this project.

wouldn't you at least go and sit down and work through the issues.

I know wind turbines are more important then just about everything else - but still

Old diesel

And heres an article about Ruby Walshes concerns about horses and wind turbines


http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/jockey-ruby-walsh-opposes-wind-farms-near-studs-1.1614824


Bear in mind Ruby like most horse people would know a lot more about horses then people who have nothing to do with horses

Macha

Old diesel wrote: »

Why shouldn't they

Not saying Ruby is right - but if your a Govt and your planning a particular project - and a leader in a particular industry comes along to say that they have concerns about this project - to the extend that they feel their industry is under treat from this project.

wouldn't you at least go and sit down and work through the issues.

I know wind turbines are more important then just about everything else - but still

He's a jockey, not someone who has studied the impacts of turbines on horses. I don't see any evidence in that article and I'd like to see some independent research into what the possible impacts could be, not just listening to some gyu because he's famous and is a jockey.

Old diesel

Macha wrote: »

He's a jockey, not someone who has studied the impacts of turbines on horses. I don't see any evidence in that article and I'd like to see some independent research into what the possible impacts could be, not just listening to some gyu because he's famous and is a jockey.

Has someone actually done so?????

And if they have - have they factored in the fact that the turbines Ruby is protesting about - are 185 metre high.

Yes theres actually a video somewhere from one of the wind developers - featuring some guy from Mayo saying the horses take no notice of them - and he has 3 on his land - and he has some sort of a riding school/horse set up.

But those were 50 metre turbines - so the question is - does going from 50 metres to 185 metres introduce any new negative impact.

Problem is - its all very well to say - yes all is fine and dandy at 50 metres - but no one has even considered the impact of going over 3 times higher again.

And the horse industry is an important industry for areas where it operates - 14,000 jobs and worth 1.1 bn to the economy.

While independent research is good - when theres jobs on the line potentially - then the issue should be addressed don't you think.

Addressing the issue may not actually mean having to abandon the wind turbine project.

But concerns should still be addressed - in the interest of proper planning, keeping jobs going - and developing wind energy projects properly.

Regardless of whether one is pro or anti wind turbines - 2,000 185 metre turbines is a lot in a relatively small area.

Has anyone even thought about what the impact is going to be??? - I don't think anyone actually appears to have done so - because if they did - youd imagine it would be planned differently.

And get a rough ride on its journey through the planning system - rather then the current farce where it appears - the journey through the planning system will just be a mere formality - to show procedure was followed.

what id be inclined to do if I was in charge would be to carry out this project over time - plan it on a small scale basis initially with the 185 turbines - get REAL world experience with these turbines been operational in rural communities.

Use that as a learning process for the further stages in the project.

Shouldn't be an issue for developers - because if they are correct - in saying that impact on community will be small or acceptable - we will discover this early on.

And if weve completely f:mad::mad:ked up in committing to this project on this scale - its better to discover this after a small scale project of say 40, 60, 80 or 100 turbines are operational.

Rather then actually going full belt ahead - rushing into a full scale 2,000 turbine project - and discovering that actually weve encountered issues.

Its normal practice when going into new territory to start off on a small scale - to identify issues - and fix them.

Car manufacturers for example when developing new models - build prototypes and pre production example of the new model and test them to the last before the new car goes into production.

Even at that - they still get it wrong - and new tech still has issues.

How do you think the whole planning process for the 2,000 185 metre turbines should be handled.

And how do we establish whats the difference in impact between a 50 to 100 metre turbine - and these new 185 metre turbines.

Another question that's relevant - is that IF we need this 2,000 extra turbines - why are we shoving them into a small area.

Would smaller scale projects spread out more around the country not have less overall impact??? - if you need the full 2,000

Also would it be such a bad thing if you decided to only build (for example) 1,100 turbines - if that meant having a more acceptable level of impact then say 2,000 turbines.

Weve messed up planning enough in the past with all these ghost estates and building on flood plains - without messing up again.

Apologies for the long rant

Greensleeves

The new guidelines are causing friction in the Labour Party so there may be changes yet.

"Last week at a turbulent party meeting, TDs and senators objected en masse to proposed guidelines by Ms O'Sullivan which despite increasing the height of wind turbines from 50 metres to 185-199 metres, the setback distance from houses remained at just 500 metres. Following heated exchanges, Mr Gilmore told the meeting: "The message has been heard. The concerns will be addressed."

Mr Gilmore said he would talk to Communications Minister Pat Rabbitte and Jan O'Sullivan to see how the problems could be resolved.

In what is regarded as implicit criticism of Mr Rabbitte, the Tanaiste also told the meeting: "Politically you have to be seen to bring people with you and that has not happened at the moment.""

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/gilmore-bids-to-calm-party-pylon-rebels-29839274.html

Greensleeves

The Irish thoroughbred industry have set up a website to fight the turbines; they'd hardly be bothering if they didn't believe the turbines presented a real danger to them.

http://www.thoroughbredirl.com/new-survey-examines-thoroughbred-industry-opinions/

Greensleeves

I see the horse people are also upset by the Eirgrid pylons.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/top-trainer-willie-mullins-demands-rethink-on-pylon-plan-claims-it-will-damage-equine-industry-29831354.html

Grudaire

Greensleeves wrote: »

I see the horse people are also upset by the Eirgrid pylons.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/top-trainer-willie-mullins-demands-rethink-on-pylon-plan-claims-it-will-damage-equine-industry-29831354.html

Won't somebody think of the horses... :rolleyes:

Is there any genuine backup for these fears that turbines or pylons will affect horses, or is it a pile of unsubstansiated manure?

Old diesel

Greensleeves wrote: »

The new guidelines are causing friction in the Labour Party so there may be changes yet.

"Last week at a turbulent party meeting, TDs and senators objected en masse to proposed guidelines by Ms O'Sullivan which despite increasing the height of wind turbines from 50 metres to 185-199 metres, the setback distance from houses remained at just 500 metres. Following heated exchanges, Mr Gilmore told the meeting: "The message has been heard. The concerns will be addressed."

Mr Gilmore said he would talk to Communications Minister Pat Rabbitte and Jan O'Sullivan to see how the problems could be resolved.

In what is regarded as implicit criticism of Mr Rabbitte, the Tanaiste also told the meeting: "Politically you have to be seen to bring people with you and that has not happened at the moment.""

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/gilmore-bids-to-calm-party-pylon-rebels-29839274.html

And there needs to be - the current approach seems to regard the fact that houses are in the area - are a nuisance that almost need to apologise for their existence.

We need to ask ourselves - what is the best way to plan for wind energy - how much of it do we actually need.

And how do we mimimise the impact of it - if we are saying that 2,000 are going to be in just 5 counties - is it fair that one part of the country takes the big hit - for the benefit of everyone else.

How should the Midlands be compensated for this - and in addition to this - what are the implications of all this for future Rural development all over Ireland.

The midlands to me seems to offer some of the best potential in Ireland for Rural Development - yet this is how its regarded it seems - somewhere where you can put up lots of turbines.

Its worrying I feel in terms of how Govt sees rural communities - ie are they seen as a nuisance - or is Rural Ireland and its communities seen as more valuable then just how many turbines and pylons you can squeeze in.

Its difficult to plan these kind of things - but from an outsiders viewpoint - we are not even making an attempt to even try to plan this in a community friendly way.

Makes it very tough in terms of selling houses in rural areas - I can imagine people looking at buying a house in (for example) Rural Galway - and thinking - I could end up buying this house and in two years time - someone put in for planning permission for turbines - which they will get because turbines are a special thing as we have seen.

The tempting option is thus not to buy that house - and live somewhere like Dublin instead - which isn't good for Rural Communities going forward - all over Ireland.

Plan these in a community friendly manner from word go - and people can have more confidence in buying houses etc and living in Rural Areas knowing they won't be screwed over by a decision a few years down the road.

Need to plan this in a more community friendly manner - I fail to see whats wrong with been community and people who live in the area friendly in terms of how we address this.

Might it be better to spread the 2,000 more evenly across the country - in smaller scale projects that deliver community benefits.

Afterall - if its to benefit Ireland Inc - isn't it better for communities all over Ireland to own some of these turbines - and profit from them rather then big wind developers

Or am I missing something

Greensleeves

Cliste wrote: »

Won't somebody think of the horses... :rolleyes:

Is there any genuine backup for these fears that turbines or pylons will affect horses, or is it a pile of unsubstansiated manure?

I've no idea. It's hard to imagine that they'd bother kicking up a fuss if there was no problem. Back in 2011 the jockey AP McCoy threatened to scrap plans for a racing stable in the UK over a 35-metre-high wind turbine (which is tiny compared to the 185m ones proposed for Ireland).

http://www.newburytoday.co.uk/2012/ap-mccoys-2m-stable-redevelopment-likely-to-go-ahead-as-wind-turbine-plans-are-refused

Greensleeves

On the buying houses thing Old Diesel you are so right!

I sold my place back in 2006 and was considering buying again but I'm going to hold off for a few years now to see what happens with the turbines. I'll be buying a small-holding with a view to planting willow for coppicing, growing vegetables and being as off-grid and environmentally friendly as I possibly can be. I'd prefer to buy in Ireland for family reasons but I will buy in France if it looks like I would end up surrounded by turbines and pylons in Ireland.

Greensleeves

Am feeling very ill-disposed towards the turbines this morning after reading this quote from Eddie O'Connor:

“Building wind farms is actually a very low-risk activity,” O’Connor said. After construction “it’s a cash pump.”

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-12-11/mainstream-renewable-taps-pensions-insurers-for-4-billion-plan.html

Old diesel

Greensleeves wrote: »

On the buying houses thing Old Diesel you are so right!

I sold my place back in 2006 and was considering buying again but I'm going to hold off for a few years now to see what happens with the turbines. I'll be buying a small-holding with a view to planting willow for coppicing, growing vegetables and being as off-grid and environmentally friendly as I possibly can be. I'd prefer to buy in Ireland for family reasons but I will buy in France if it looks like I would end up surrounded by turbines and pylons in Ireland.

That's exactly the sort of scenario I had in mind - apart from the alternative location.

I feel that its easier from Govt point of view - to wind down rural communities - by neglect - over the coming years.

So im concerned that that's the type of attitude at play with wind turbine and pylon plans.

I have read at least one EIS type document for a wind farm - which among other things raised the point that in the area where that wind farm is (been built at the moment - 2 turbines operational already - I know this because I can see it from our Farm yard :rolleyes:) that the population was ageing and declining.

Difficulty is that it may well be seen that rural areas are in decline - so theres no need to treat them in the same way as somewhere "that's going places".

As ive said - the midlands issue may seem irrelevant to someone living in Rural Kerry, Clare, Limerick, Galway, Mayo, Roscommon Donegal and other counties.

But its far more relevant then they think - the Midlands has some of the best potential for Rural development - with towns like Mullingar, Tullamore, Athlone and Portlaoise offering potential which could drive on the rural areas that surround all these towns.

Yet the Govt shows communities in the Midlands such a lack of respect on this issue.

What have they got in store for other Rural communities .

Its a shame really - because in terms of driving the country forward in the future - I think the best way is to work on developing existing towns - like Killarney, Tralee, Mullingar, Athlone, Nenagh, Letterkenny and other such places.

Obtaining additional benefits by also at the same time - trying to move rural areas in the various regions those towns are in - by ensuring the benefits of developing the whole region as a Govt policy gets to as many parts of that region as possible.

This idea of everything going towards Dublin is not overly sustainable in the future.

If we talk about taking water from the River Shannon to supply Dublin - that raises the question - rather then do that - why not develop the potential of the areas near the River Shannon.

Places like Carrick on Shannon, Athlone - etc.

Again - ive gone off on a long rant - but this whole thing about keeping rural Ireland going as well as it can is something I feel strongly about (you may have figured that already )

We might as well get this thing right from the word go - as if mistakes are made - its harder to fix problems after - than to do the thing right from the start

B

Grudaire

Greensleeves wrote: »

I've no idea. It's hard to imagine that they'd bother kicking up a fuss if there was no problem.

No smoke without fire... but no evidence that what they are arguing is true.

If I accused everyone you have quoted of clearly being bought off by the oil industry, would you:

• Think I was just stirring sh*t
• Think that I wouldn't cause a fuss if there was no problem?

You're jumping to the second option for no clear reason...

Greensleeves wrote: »

Back in 2011 the jockey AP McCoy threatened to scrap plans for a racing stable in the UK over a 35-metre-high wind turbine (which is tiny compared to the 185m ones proposed for Ireland).

http://www.newburytoday.co.uk/2012/ap-mccoys-2m-stable-redevelopment-likely-to-go-ahead-as-wind-turbine-plans-are-refused

That tells me that currently the *percieved* danger of wind turbines is high, and that certain wealthy folk disagree with turbines and are willing to threaten to move their money as a result of the turbines.

(ironic given certain arguments against the wind developers)

Greensleeves wrote: »

Am feeling very ill-disposed towards the turbines this morning after reading this quote from Eddie O'Connor:

“Building wind farms is actually a very low-risk activity,” O’Connor said. After construction “it’s a cash pump.”

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-12-11/mainstream-renewable-taps-pensions-insurers-for-4-billion-plan.html

I fail to see how this is a problem?

Greensleeves

Cliste I think you've picked me up wrong. I think the whole horse thing is bizarre. I have no knowledge of the racing/horse breeding industry so it just seems odd to me that they would waste the time and money on this if it wasn't a problem. It may well be that they just don't like the look of turbines but for whatever reason they are spending money on this. As for people being bought off by the oil industry that is also possible I suppose; anything is possible.

That's fine that you don't have a problem with Eddie O'Connor talking about wind turbines as "cash pumps" but it is a far cry from the saving-the-planet lecture the people of the midlands keep getting from Eamon Ryan and Eddie O'Connor.

Grudaire

Greensleeves wrote: »

That's fine that you don't have a problem with Eddie O'Connor talking about wind turbines as "cash pumps" but it is a far cry from the saving-the-planet lecture the people of the midlands keep getting from Eamon Ryan and Eddie O'Connor.

Can things not be both good for the environment and economically viable?

Greensleeves

Cliste wrote: »

Can things not be both good for the environment and economically viable?

I'm sure some things can but industrial wind farms don't seem to be one of them; they need the "cash pump" of subsidies to make them viable.

Frank Lee Midere

You people are hilarious. Anti scientific pseudo science trumps saving the planet. Curtesy of environmentalists.

Old diesel

Greensleeves wrote: »

Cliste I think you've picked me up wrong. I think the whole horse thing is bizarre. I have no knowledge of the racing/horse breeding industry so it just seems odd to me that they would waste the time and money on this if it wasn't a problem. It may well be that they just don't like the look of turbines but for whatever reason they are spending money on this. As for people being bought off by the oil industry that is also possible I suppose; anything is possible.

That's fine that you don't have a problem with Eddie O'Connor talking about wind turbines as "cash pumps" but it is a far cry from the saving-the-planet lecture the people of the midlands keep getting from Eamon Ryan and Eddie O'Connor.

im no expert on horses either - although as far as I am aware - they can be very sensitive to surroundings.

I can't say how much the turbines would actually impact on horses - because like I say im not an expert.

I however do think the horse industry concerns should be listened to and taken on board because

1) They provide 14,000 jobs - why put those at risk needlessly

2) Horse industry is worth 1.1 bn to the economy - again should not be jeopardised needlessly.

3) The wind turbine companies are looking for planning - their application would be strengthened if the horse industry concerns can be addressed.

4) Id like to see the eventual wind turbine plan - being one that fits in very well with nice pleasant community living - and with everything that's going on in the community at present.

5) Getting to the bottom of the issue would be helpful in achieving a good solution in the end to the wind turbine issue.

6) Wind energy companies should try to be good neighbours - this is actually good for their business.

7) losing an industry in order to gain another one - is not good practice - especially if wind can't deliver the extra jobs to offset the loss of another industry.

8) Ireland does well in terms of horses - in terms of the world stage - this is a good thing and id like to see it continue - and it should continue.

Im not saying the horse industry is right here - but I feel that dismissing concerns from an industry when said industry feels that the issues at hand are a threat to its future here - is not good.

If we investigate the issues - and establish they are without foundation - then great - we can continue planning wind turbines in that knowledge.

But better to get issues addressed now - rather then be saying - we should have done this or that - when an industry is lost.

Greensleeves

Interesting input from the Heritage Council on wind energy policy...

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/heritage-council-urges-national-planning-policy-for-onshore-wind-1.1629727#.UrAjsk0ggMJ.twitter

Old diesel

Greensleeves wrote: »

Interesting input from the Heritage Council on wind energy policy...

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/heritage-council-urges-national-planning-policy-for-onshore-wind-1.1629727#.UrAjsk0ggMJ.twitter

Silly question - who are the heritage council - have they any power to do anthing .

Im not criticising them - in fact i agree with their thinking that's presented in that article.

In fact the reason i want to know if they have any power or real input into decision making - is that i want to write a letter to them if they have power or input

Thanks a million

Greensleeves

Toothless but worthy custodians of all aspects of our natural and built environment that trot out nice glossy brochures?

According to their website their interests are very broad...

"It includes monuments, archaeological objects, heritage objects such as art and industrial works, documents and genealogical records, architectural heritage, flora, fauna, wildlife habitats, landscapes, seascapes, wrecks, geology, heritage gardens, parks and inland waterways."

http://www.heritagecouncil.ie/

Old diesel

Greensleeves wrote: »

Toothless but worthy custodians of all aspects of our natural and built environment that trot out nice glossy brochures?

According to their website their interests are very broad...

"It includes monuments, archaeological objects, heritage objects such as art and industrial works, documents and genealogical records, architectural heritage, flora, fauna, wildlife habitats, landscapes, seascapes, wrecks, geology, heritage gardens, parks and inland waterways."

http://www.heritagecouncil.ie/

Thought as much -

Saves me wasting my time on a letter to them any way

Greensleeves

Roscommon Councillors have made an amendment to the county development plan stipulating that wind turbines must be located at least 1,500 metres from peoples homes.

I wonder whether this has any legal standing? If the national guidelines say 500m surely An Bord Pleanala will ignore the county council rules.

http://www.midlandsradio.fm/news/turbine-local-copy-rcpk

Old diesel

Greensleeves wrote: »

Roscommon Councillors have made an amendment to the county development plan stipulating that wind turbines must be located at least 1,500 metres from peoples homes.

I wonder whether this has any legal standing? If the national guidelines say 500m surely An Bord Pleanala will ignore the county council rules.

http://www.midlandsradio.fm/news/turbine-local-copy-rcpk

A good point - to my mind - a lot would rest on the strength of the case that Roscommon Co Council puts forward for a 1,500 metre setback from homes.

If the case is strong, well argued - and solid evidence is put forward - then An Bord Pleanala should listen to it - although not because its in the county Development plan.

But based on the case that's put forward - how good a case it is - and whether the evidence put forward warrants - in the Bords view - a 1500 metre setback

If im honest though - I can't see the 1500 metres been applied in practice - unless theres a very strong case from Roscommon Co Council.

Obviously - I assume - that if I were to apply for planning permission to Roscommon Co Council for a windfarm - and some of the turbines were less then 1500 metres from houses - theyd turn me down.

But then I could go to An Bord Pleanala - and theyd be the ones deciding whether the wind farm goes ahead and gets planning.

What is the legal basis for a stipulation in - or an amendment to a county development plan.

I understand Westmeath Councillers passed a motion saying that wind turbines couldn't be put on agricultural land - or something like that.

In both cases - the case is potentially strengthened by an amendment to County Development plan - or a motion been passed by Councillors.

However the national legislation or guidelines are likely to take precedence I would say - I can see An Bord Pleanala saying that 1500 metres setback is unreasonably restrictive when the legal requirement (with Jan O Sullivans proposals if they go through) is 500 metres

fclauson

You only have until the 21st - speak now to make your voice heard - you must have some opinion !!


Wind Farm Submissions

http://www.environ.ie/en/DevelopmentHousing/PlanningDevelopment/Planning/PublicConsultations/

My submission
http://www.environ.ie/en/DevelopmentHousing/PlanningDevelopment/Planning/PublicConsultations/Submissions-WindEnergy/Wexford/FileDownLoad,35292,en.pdf