Confiscating Free Travel Passes?

Morf

I would be happy with the proposed smartcard system with biometric data.

My only reservations would be about data collection of FTP-smartcard holders.

kumate_champ07

Gatling wrote: »

Be interesting to see what will happen to the apparently thousands of fake passes being currently been sold around the country,
Probably end up with masses of them been dumped on the market before there totally useless

sounds like an urban myth

kumate_champ07

I was at heuston station during the summer and some guy carrying and drinking a can of beer skips to the front of the que with his free travel pass, didnt show ID and the pass looked crumpled. suppose they were afraid to say anything to him

Gatling

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

sounds like an urban myth

No 12+ thousand recovered in the last few months alone in tallaght

Fred Swanson

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L1011

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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The major raid I heard of turned up blanks, unknown if fake or real - the current one is not hard to fake. Along with blank NCT and tax discs and similar.

There's been reported cases of real blank NCT certs being stolen so the supply of that sort of thing can be either false-on-real or fake.

Victor

Morf wrote: »

You make a good point.

It just rings with the agenda to have the working class round on people with state benefits, entitlements and unpleasant terms for people committing benefit fraud. It's a smokescreen for turning a blind-eye to white-collar crime, cronyism and deliberate inequality designed by the politicians, higher civil service, business leaders and so on.

It annoys me from this perspective.

Let's stay on topic.

Moderator

Bof No1

Morf wrote: »

I would be happy with the proposed smartcard system with biometric data.

My only reservations would be about data collection of FTP-smartcard holders.

I'd agree with having a smartcard FTP to make fraudulent use harder, both in use of and copying/cloning of the FTP. Where I'd have the problem, would be with the data collection from same. If the data was analysed and a percentage of cards were found to be unused/little used over a set period of time, it would allow the relevant dept. leeway to cancel/remove the FTP, in a similar way to what they're doing with the discretionary medical cards. I understand it's different criteria, but the basic principle is the same. "Use it or lose it."

donegal11

Bof No1 wrote: »

I'd agree with having a smartcard FTP to make fraudulent use harder, both in use of and copying/cloning of the FTP. Where I'd have the problem, would be with the data collection from same. If the data was analysed and a percentage of cards were found to be unused/little used over a set period of time, it would allow the relevacriteria, but thent dept. leeway to cancel/remove the FTP, in a similar way to what they're doing with the discretionary medical cards. I understand it's different basic principle is the same. "Use it or lose it."

Discretionary medical cards relate to level of means and nothing to do with "use it or lose it". The majority of FTP relate to you position whether your a carer/disabled/pensioner, if FTP was less then expected(unlikely) payments to CIE might be reduced but to say someone in say donegal or mayo would loss there travel pass over someone in dublin just because they had less access to public transport. There's no comparison.

Fred Swanson

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cdebru

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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How do you know ?
Just based on you don't use yours or have you actual data ?

Obviously as was stated previously if you live in a rural area your opportunity to use your free travel pass would be quite limited but in Dublin they are heavily used, certain routes and times those traveling on DSP passes would greatly outnumber those paying.

Bof No1

Bof No1 wrote: »

I'd agree with having a smartcard FTP to make fraudulent use harder, both in use of and copying/cloning of the FTP. Where I'd have the problem, would be with the data collection from same. If the data was analysed and a percentage of cards were found to be unused/little used over a set period of time, it would allow the relevant dept. leeway to cancel/remove the FTP, in a similar way to what they're doing with the discretionary medical cards. I understand it's different criteria, but the basic principle is the same. "Use it or lose it."

Donegal11, I refer you to part of the above quote, where it says," I understand it's different criteria". I'd suggest you read the above post again, as it's to do with information gathering through the means of a smartcard FTP and the possible uses of that information by the information gatherers. I fail to see where in that post I suggest that someone in Dublin not using/losing their FTP, impacts on another FTP holder in another part of the Country.

the groutch

shouldnt be use it or lose it, but should be a nominal annual fee (eg. €50 per year).

Fred Swanson

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suicide_circus

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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Indeed. Charge them full fees.

donegal11

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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If they can cut phone allowance and chip away at the medical card, introduce subscription charges, property tax and water rates I don't think nominal fees are out of the question.

They could also limited it by giving Pass holders an annual fare limit such as a topped up leap card and once used you have to pay for yourself. It would make people value there free travel more,limit needless travel,subvention would be directed at services actually used and limit fraud (couldn't pass card around or balance would be used up)

thebrick

donegal11 wrote: »

They could also limited it by giving Pass holders an annual fare limit such as a topped up leap card and once used you have to pay for yourself. It would make people value there free travel more,limit needless travel,subvention would be directed at services actually used and limit fraud (couldn't pass card around or balance would be used up)

Best idea ever posted in this forum, very hard to disagree with it.

Hilly Bill

donegal11 wrote: »

If they can cut phone allowance and chip away at the medical card, introduce subscription charges, property tax and water rates I don't think nominal fees are out of the question.

They could also limited it by giving Pass holders an annual fare limit such as a topped up leap card and once used you have to pay for yourself. It would make people value there free travel more,limit needless travel,subvention would be directed at services actually used and limit fraud (couldn't pass card around or balance would be used up)

That would cost more money rather than save anything as some wouldnt use it as much as others and some not at all. It would only work if its a virtual balance
for monitoring reasons and then charge after that providing they are not blind or a wheelchair user etc.

Sam Russell

donegal11 wrote: »

They could also limited it by giving Pass holders an annual fare limit such as a topped up leap card and once used you have to pay for yourself. It would make people value there free travel more,limit needless travel,subvention would be directed at services actually used and limit fraud (couldn't pass card around or balance would be used up)

If you put a cash limit on FTP use, then most users will try to get up to that amount without passing it - a bit like speed limits on roads.

FTP should be given to elderly people because a: They have a restriction on driving licences; b:it is better for their health to travel rather than be house bound; c: they provide a subsidy for public transport; d: they occupy otherwise vacant seats.

The only interference that would be likely is to restrict the start time for use of FTP, like after 9:30am. How that works for school kids, I assume would have to be tackled.

Too many people have the FTP with no restriction. A carer for Mrs Murphy down in Ballygobackwards gets one to vist Mrs Murphy but the carer can use it to go up to Dublin for the sales without Mrs. Murphy- no restriction. That is a problem. It is not fraud, but it is not right, and could be considered fraud.

Too few inspectors check the tickets - but even when they do, they do not check the travel pass itself.

Fred Swanson

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Bof No1

It would be interesting to know if the people posting over the last day or so, who are so worried about the use of the FTP, whether "fraudulent" or otherwise, actually have one? To start the ball rolling, I do, but I don't use it much, as is my right!

Gatling

Bof No1 wrote: »

It would be interesting to know if the people posting over the last day or so, who are so worried about the use of the FTP, whether "fraudulent" or otherwise, actually have one? To start the ball rolling, I do, but I don't use it much, as is my right!

Do you have your own transportation ie car / bike ?

Actually personally I believe it should only be given to people who have impaired mobility and need public transport to get around ,

If you have a car / bike and don't use public transport at all it shouldn't be issued then ,

Entitlement doesn't = necessity

And I'm a pass holder with several medical conditions

bmaxi

donegal11 wrote: »

They could also limited it by giving Pass holders an annual fare limit such as a topped up leap card and once used you have to pay for yourself. It would make people value there free travel more,limit needless travel,subvention would be directed at services actually used and limit fraud (couldn't pass card around or balance would be used up)

How would you quantify that? For example, Government are intent on closing hospitals in rural areas necessitating people travel long distances to hospitals in the cities. Do you get the same allowance if you live in Dublin or say, Tullow? For instance you can travel the entire length of the no 15 route from Ballycullen to Clongriffin for €3.05, the fare for a similar distance, say Enniscorthy to Gorey, is over €10.

Outer suburban fares on Dublin Bus are also higher than city fares. Some years ago, I can recall, the fare between Saggart and Rathcoole, a distance of about a mile, was the same as the fare between Dublin and Saggart, about ten miles. So not easy to set up an equitable system.

The free travel scheme should not be abandoned. At it's inception it was set up as a recognition of the people who built this country and it's infrastructure, during even more challenging times than we live in today. It saddens me to see the venom poured out in this forum towards those people, sure it should be means tested, it should be only for certain classes of people and not for the ne'er do wells and the dregs of society but to limit it in any way for the older generation and the disabled is a non runner IMO.

It never ceases to amaze me the way some people will go apoplectic at the mere idea of having a free travel scheme for the elderly and disabled but will happilly ignore the tens and hundreds of millions which go to line the pockets of consultants, advisers and our self styled betters.

punisher5112

I had a Passenger get on the bus Friday evening and show me a fairly new looking pass only the name, address and pass number were not very visible so took a closer look he handed it to me and goes it fell in a bucket of water.

All the details had been rubbed off as the pass was for a women and since he was a guy I knew straight away what he was at as he hadn't rubbed enough off as could barely make out miss on it.

I am sure he had another one on him for later because he just walked on but I will get him again as I know he is a messer and is stealing passes.

Sam Russell

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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Did you read my post? I said it was not fraud, but I did say I thought it was not right and could be considered abuse. Not the same thing.

donegal11

Hilly Bill wrote: »

That would cost more money rather than save anything as some wouldn't use it as much as others and some not at all. It would only work if its a virtual balance
for monitoring reasons and then charge after that providing they are not blind or a wheelchair user etc.

If run on fare bases the balance of current average cost of €70 wouldn't go far so it would have to notional balance(or 10c fares). But if the balance was used up and justified need for further travel was required a means tested provision could apply in a similar way there is food and heating supplements that are provided by SW/HSE. This way the right of some free travel is respected but recognise that it's use is not FREE and those who can afford to pay do. There's no unlimited fuel (means tested),electricity or phone(cut) allowance so in the future with the introduction of the new Public service cards I don't see how travel would be any different as the ability to do so will be there.

Even if the scheme did cost more it would go directly into public transport and costs associated with the scheme,extra use outside limit would bring in extra revenue and those in genuine need provided for. The extra revenue could provide more services or help reduce fares for everyone.

punisher5112

I know totally off topic but can anyone that reads this put in a complain t to Dublin Bus that the heating on their buses is non existent I am sick of telling them and I work there.

The whole travel scheme is going in the right direction with the new style smart pass but will be another 10 years I would say before implemented.

There will be a huge change in the coming months when driver's are given the chance to become checkers which will help cut out a small amount of these scammers and fraudsters but agree it will only be a drop in the ocean.

BuffyBot

Congratulations. Despite being warned not to, some of you managed to frogmarch the thread back into being a deabate on who/who should not have a FTP.