Teacher behaviour

Prodigal Son

My son was taken out of class today, alone in the corridor with a teacher (not his own) and shouted at and accused of something he didn't do, until he cried. (He's 11 and doesn't cry easily).

He was then threatened with a further punishment tomorrow and returned to his class where he was still crying. His own teacher carried on as normal and ignored everything.

Is this still acceptable in our schools? Is there no code of conduct for teachers? Are they allowed to be alone with a child like this? Can anyone advise my child's rights before I approach the school ?

davo2001

How about talking yourself to the teacher in question? There are 2 sides to every story.

biko

Ask for a meeting with said teacher and headteacher.
Keep an open mind and see if you can find out what happened that made the class teacher think this was necessary.

taxus_baccata

Prodigal Son wrote: »

My son was taken out of class today, alone in the corridor with a teacher (not his own) and shouted at and accused of something he didn't do, until he cried. (He's 11 and doesn't cry easily).

He was then threatened with a further punishment tomorrow and returned to his class where he was still crying. His own teacher carried on as normal and ignored everything.

Is this still acceptable in our schools? Is there no code of conduct for teachers? Are they allowed to be alone with a child like this? Can anyone advise my child's rights before I approach the school ?[/QUOTE

This is no way to treat a child. Try to talk to your son this evening, make notes. Then arrange an appointmentbwith the principal and teacher(s).
In response to the poster that says there are two sides - fair enough there are always two sides to every story but humiliation has no place in school.

My heart aches for you OP must be so hard to see your son upset like this.

Prodigal Son

biko wrote: »

Ask for a meeting with said teacher and headteacher.
Keep an open mind and see if you can find out what happened that made the class teacher think this was necessary.

Thanks folks. Will do that in the first instance.

My worry is that I now have a child afraid to go back to school, so something defo has gone badly wrong....

afkasurfjunkie

Prodigal Son wrote: »

Thanks folks. Will do that in the first instance.

My worry is that I now have a child afraid to go back to school, so something defo has gone badly wrong....

It's a hard one to get right from a teachers point if view. If he was spoken to in front of the class, parents would be annoyed that he was embarrassed in front of his classmates. If teacher had another adult present, parents could accuse adults of 'ganging up on and intimidating' their child, as happened in my workplace a few years ago. He wasn't brought into a room on his own with the door closed, he was in an open, public corridor which is the best option of the above. Now if he was accused in the wrong that's very unfair but as previous poster said, there are two sides to every story so make sure you speak to the teacher involved.
A teacher spoke to one of my students in the corridor about misbehaviour on the yard recently. I didn't mention it when he returned to the classroom as it would only have drawn more attention to the situation and the issue had been dealt with by that teacher.

paleo muinteoir

I agree that this is a tough one for teachers to get around - can be a lose/lose situation.
Obviously, we can't comment on whether or not the correction/punishment was deserved in this particular case, but it definitely does occur in schools that children sometimes need a bit of a 'talking too'. Talking to the child in the corridor can sometimes be the less humiliating option, especially for a child who has a tendency to be in trouble a lot.

I would say that screaming at a child until they cry is taking things a step too far.
Also (and OP, i'm not stating that this is necessarily the case in your situation), sometimes a child may go home and say that a teacher was shouting at them - where the reality maybe was that the teacher was questioning them in a raised voice and maybe with an admonishing tone.

Children are children after all, and as such can sometimes misinterpret situations of all types.
As a teacher, I would suggest that you initially speak directly to the teacher - trying not to be hostile. If you should walk away from that conversation still unhappy with the situation, then by all means bring the principal into the equation etc.

anneree

Hi guys I too am in a bit of a dilemma. My 12 yr old son was talking in class and his punishment was to clean the classroom floor along with another boy. He also got an essay and was quite upset coming home. I rang and made apt to speak to teacher regarding the incident and went in next day to find my son upset as he was taken from his PE class to complete the essay even though I had arranged to speak with the teacher regarding this. Obviously I was annoyed on finding my son upset the second day but even more upset that my wishes were ignored and she continuted to punish knowing I wanted to discuss the issue.
I spoke to the principle outlining how upset I was that the teacher in question carried on regardless. I would have encouraged the essay had I felt the situation had been handled professionaly but cleaning the floor (not his section) in my opinion is humiliating to anybody when done in that manner.
I spoke to the teacher sternly I said how annoyed I was but that we would draw a line under it and move forward. I asked my son to go in the next day apologise and move on. He agreed and did that.
Later that morning I got a call from the school principal who said he didnt take lightly to a member of his staff being threatned.. I almost died. At no point did I threaten or abuse her, I told her I was his parent and I felt that she had no right to ignore our wishes to discuss the issue I said his father was also unhappy and would be in touch regarding the matter as he was at work that day. I did ask if cleaning the floor as punishment was acceptable where she was trained, which was probably a bit bold but that was the extent of my anger. We shook hands and I left feeling ready to move on. My son was waiting at the principles office downstairs and when I entered the office to collect him I thought he would ask was everything ok but he totally ignored me and didnt even look up from his desk!. Needless to say my faith in my sons school has vanished and I am at my wits end as what to do next. He is in 6th class so he doesnt have much time but my trust has gone and I really want to remove my child. There has been another incident where another boy brought a laser to class, my son did handle it and they were shining it but now the principle tells me their solictior has to be informed as another adult in the smoking area needed to get a doctor to his eye. I know this is hard to believe but the first incident a few weeks ago was his very first time in trouble and my first time having to approach the school regarding any problem with my son. , the previous acting principle was a lovely and had a great way with both children & parents, my son was very happy prior to this year. His new teacher and principle are both in their first year at his school. My trust is completely gone and im very unedge sending my son in every day.

Prodigal Son

Thats so much worse than my case (which is now resolved with apology from school & teachers). Many thanks to the various posters for advice & teachers perspective.

Your son is in primary school, not the marines - under no circumstances should he be cleaning a floor. I image there's breaches of any number of laws and regulations on that. I'd put the complaint in writing to the principal in order for him to take it seriously and if you don't get satisfaction, write to the board.

anneree

Id say at this stage its the board but I still feel il get no where and am afraid they will pick on my son for it afterwards. Yes your right a definite breech of regulations but the principal is backing his teacher and we have had no explaination regarding any of our concerns.. really glad u have come to an agreement on your end as at the end of the day its easier on everyone involved to come to a resolution that everyone is happy about.

pooch90

Just out of interest, when you say clean the floor-do you mean sweep the floor?
I'd often get the kids in my class to sweep up. Helps them take some responsibility for their own mess.
I know it was a punishment for your child, I was just wondering if you meant scrub or sweep floor.

byhookorbycrook

Smoking area???

spurious

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Smoking area???

That's what I thought. What country are you in OP?

I'm also not clear on why he did not complete the punishment essay the day he got it. Did you tell him he didn't have to?

anneree

Hi it was to pick up crumbs and stuff but it wasnt a case of he made the mess it was go down on his knees picking stuff up that shpuld have been hoovered.. basically not papers or a mess he had made.
It was degrading in my opinion.

Re the smoking area they share a building with fas type trainees so yes the smokers are in view of the kids another not so impressive idea but its a small school they have moved to this building this year. Hopefully that will change soon though. Well I would imagine it will I wasnt aware of it either untill this week. Im v stressed out about the whole situation really. Untill this year it was a pleasure of a school but new building new principle and new teacher has done a total turn .. I dont know weather to remove him or just pray june comes quick and we have no more dealings with them

Insect Overlord

Maybe he should have just stopped talking in class...

anneree

I told him I was going to speak with her first and we would do the essay that evening instead as he was crying over the cleaning and had refused to go on his knees cleaning. Teacher took it as cheek and gave him the essay so I decided to see what was going on before I made him do it. I can see how she took it as him standing up to her I would have continued with the essay but didnt like the cleaning incident so called a halt on essay till we got a chance to see what was going on. I do realise that teachers need to have control and not be stood up to but it was everything together I needed to speak to her first. He spoke in class I didnt feel it was major misbehaviour.

moc moc a moc

anneree wrote: »

Hi guys I too am in a bit of a dilemma. My 12 yr old son was talking in class and his punishment was to clean the classroom floor

This is no dilemma; you're overly sensitive.

It's not all that long ago that kids were cracked across the knuckles with a ruler or whipped with a cane for misbehaving in class, and you're up in arms because your son had to clean a floor?? Incredible.

Boskowski

Thinking the same thing here.
Now I have no kids myself but teachers in the family and while not accusing the OP here (although the username speaks volumes) parents are a nightmare these days. Nothing but attitude and my precious little darlings.
Of course its never their prodigal kids fault and how dare the teachers trying to maintain some sort of discipline in the classroom. :rolleyes:

Look OP he got a good talking to. What would classroom discipline come to if teachers couldn't even do that anymore?
And even if he didn't do it (whatever it was) you weren't there and depend on the word of an 11 year old. Of course he's your prodigal son and wouldn't ever lie to you :rolleyes: but he got a talking to this time and probably got away on other occasions and such is life.

What are you even trying to say when you're saying 'is he even allowed to be alone with my son like this'? I know you're probably angry but its that kind of shoite talk that starts to turn this society into a fkn nightmare for everyone. What are you even hinting at with that comment? Thats totally out of order, think about it.

Wickerman1

moc moc a moc wrote: »

This is no dilemma; you're overly sensitive.

It's not all that long ago that kids were cracked across the knuckles with a ruler or whipped with a cane for misbehaving in class, and you're up in arms because your son had to clean a floor?? Incredible.

Ya it's so much better just to humiliate a child instead of physically beating them :rolleyes:

anneree

I wouldnt have a problem with any child cleaning its the manner in how it was done ie to humiliate rather than constructive . As I said already I spoke to the teacher and it was fine. Its that she went back and said I had threatened her to the principle that really got me worried about what type of a person does that. Humiliates a child then blatently lies to her boss to get herself out of the issue. That whats upsetting me. Children need disipline of that I totally agree. My issue is not the punishment.

Bananatop

anneree wrote: »

It was degrading in my opinion.

Perfectly fine to have that opinion. But to hint that 'This is not over yet' by getting your husband to come in would leave a bad taste in anyone's mouth. Questioning the teacher's professionalism was also not on. Quite surprising that you felt the need to talk to the teacher in this way despite your son never having any trouble before. And to go from 'no trouble at all' to 'I want to take my son out of the school' over one incident is bizarre to be quite frank.

seavill

anneree wrote: »

I told him I was going to speak with her first and we would do the essay that evening instead as he was crying over the cleaning and had refused to go on his knees cleaning. Teacher took it as cheek and gave him the essay so I decided to see what was going on before I made him do it. I can see how she took it as him standing up to her I would have continued with the essay but didnt like the cleaning incident so called a halt on essay till we got a chance to see what was going on. I do realise that teachers need to have control and not be stood up to but it was everything together I needed to speak to her first. He spoke in class I didnt feel it was major misbehaviour.

There in lies the problem.

I will state that I am a teacher for clarity.

I am not for a second saying cleaning the floor is appropriate or not so I'm not getting into that issue (I will say in our school, secondary, kids are asked to pick up litter, clean the school regularly, either as a class group or individuals, could also be in lieu of a detention)

The problem is you don't know the context of the talking in class. Taking a step back it is clear that you say that your child has not been in trouble before so we can take it that this particular teacher (liked or not) has not had a record this year of giving out punishment to your son for no particular reason. So we can only presume that there was a little more to it.
Being a teacher i will say that it is important that the teacher has control of the classroom at all times. Sometimes you will have to exercise that control to make a point or to nip certain behavior in the bud as it may be getting out of hand (and before I'm jumped on I'm not saying the teacher should be a bully or anything of the sorts).
Now looking at your situation if we have determined that the teacher doesn't have a track record of giving your son needless punishment for no reason something must have happened. There are several things that may have happened.
It could be a persistent problem with your son/a couple of kids where things have been ignored for a while but now have come to a head and need to be stopped, for something like talking in class it would be seen by me as unnecessary to call or call in a parent over this so I would give a punishment to the child to do instead. Perhaps this teacher felt that rather than give him a long essay or written task to do just picking up a bit of dirt/rubbish was a lesser punishment and would suffice (I'm not saying they are correct but it's always good to look at things from the other side even if we don't agree)
It could have been that it was a once off but this teacher is very/overly strict and wanted to stop it the first time it happened
It could have been that your son spoke out at a very bad time e.g. disrupted a very important explanation or something like that.

If I were a betting man looking at the situation you have described I would guess that it was probably just what we call low level disruption that the teacher may have felt needed to be stopped before it got out of hand but not something that needed a phone call home.

Again not saying the rights or wrongs of picking up the rubbish, but when I was in primary school in the 90's we were made scrub the floor of the hall with brillo pads, and that wasnt even a punishment it was a reward, haha, no joke how naive were we.

I personally very rarely accept notes from parents as nowadays parents will write notes for every little thing (not saying this is the case for you just saying my experience in my school) If I give a punishment I gave it for a reason, that punishment has to be completed note or no note (unless extreme circumstances)
I have had parents write notes saying they do not feel that Johnny should have to do detention becuase of the story they were given, however the reality was different and I would stand over Johnny having to do the detention.

Obviously I don't know the school/teacher involved but from my experience as a teacher (although secondary) I would suspect that the teacher maybe felt that picking up the rubbish was a lesser/quicker punishment and maybe the crime didn't necessitate an essay. I personally wouldn't see it as the end of the world but that doesn't mean the child didn't take it the wrong way or indeed the family.

In relation to you speaking to the teacher again did the school say you threatened the teacher or the teacher felt threatened. Like a similar thread in this section in any case like that your best bet is always to arrange a meeting and go in level headed speaking to any other adult "sternly" as you put it, will get you no where whether you are right or not. had the teacher spoken to you like that,which they clearly didnt as you didnt mention it or even you go into a shop and speak to a member of staff like that it usually donesnt end well

vamos!

seavill wrote: »

There in lies the problem.

I will state that I am a teacher for clarity.

I am not for a second saying cleaning the floor is appropriate or not so I'm not getting into that issue (I will say in our school, secondary, kids are asked to pick up litter, clean the school regularly, either as a class group or individuals, could also be in lieu of a detention)

The problem is you don't know the context of the talking in class. Taking a step back it is clear that you say that your child has not been in trouble before so we can take it that this particular teacher (liked or not) has not had a record this year of giving out punishment to your son for no particular reason. So we can only presume that there was a little more to it.
Being a teacher i will say that it is important that the teacher has control of the classroom at all times. Sometimes you will have to exercise that control to make a point or to nip certain behavior in the bud as it may be getting out of hand (and before I'm jumped on I'm not saying the teacher should be a bully or anything of the sorts).
Now looking at your situation if we have determined that the teacher doesn't have a track record of giving your son needless punishment for no reason something must have happened. There are several things that may have happened.
It could be a persistent problem with your son/a couple of kids where things have been ignored for a while but now have come to a head and need to be stopped, for something like talking in class it would be seen by me as unnecessary to call or call in a parent over this so I would give a punishment to the child to do instead. Perhaps this teacher felt that rather than give him a long essay or written task to do just picking up a bit of dirt/rubbish was a lesser punishment and would suffice (I'm not saying they are correct but it's always good to look at things from the other side even if we don't agree)
It could have been that it was a once off but this teacher is very/overly strict and wanted to stop it the first time it happened
It could have been that your son spoke out at a very bad time e.g. disrupted a very important explanation or something like that.

If I were a betting man looking at the situation you have described I would guess that it was probably just what we call low level disruption that the teacher may have felt needed to be stopped before it got out of hand but not something that needed a phone call home.

Again not saying the rights or wrongs of picking up the rubbish, but when I was in primary school in the 90's we were made scrub the floor of the hall with brillo pads, and that wasnt even a punishment it was a reward, haha, no joke how naive were we.

I personally very rarely accept notes from parents as nowadays parents will write notes for every little thing (not saying this is the case for you just saying my experience in my school) If I give a punishment I gave it for a reason, that punishment has to be completed note or no note (unless extreme circumstances)
I have had parents write notes saying they do not feel that Johnny should have to do detention becuase of the story they were given, however the reality was different and I would stand over Johnny having to do the detention.

Obviously I don't know the school/teacher involved but from my experience as a teacher (although secondary) I would suspect that the teacher maybe felt that picking up the rubbish was a lesser/quicker punishment and maybe the crime didn't necessitate an essay. I personally wouldn't see it as the end of the world but that doesn't mean the child didn't take it the wrong way or indeed the family.

In relation to you speaking to the teacher again did the school say you threatened the teacher or the teacher felt threatened. Like a similar thread in this section in any case like that your best bet is always to arrange a meeting and go in level headed speaking to any other adult "sternly" as you put it, will get you no where whether you are right or not. had the teacher spoken to you like that,which they clearly didnt as you didnt mention it or even you go into a shop and speak to a member of staff like that it usually donesnt end well

Notes from parents are driving me crazy this year. I have one particular class where I get at least 3 notes from home excusing homework every single time I give a challenging task. The little darlings neglect to mention that I give a week or more for the completion of said tasks. I started to ignore that notes and impose punishment for homework not done and have had two phone calls from parents since. Both in the vein of how dare you override my rights as a parent by ignoring my letter (Mary left her book in school and couldn't do her work- not bereavement,emergency or illness). One parent was polite when I explained the story and also explained that it was her 5th note that year, that she was being played by her child.

The other parents gave me abuse, questioned my authority, my subject knowledge and my age. She contacted the principal and I met for a meeting where she continued to abuse me as her poor husband cringed. Principal wouldn't tolerate abuse as it was ridiculous so the woman is demanding the child be removed from my class. There is nowhere else for them to go without moving all of their options so the child is currently sitting down the back of my room doing her homework. Parents who can't listen and don't want to realise that being responsible for the education and well-being of 28 children every 40 minutes is different to parenting are killing schools. I would wonder about a child having to clean a floor as punishment but an essay is standard. The parents is responsible for the child being upset the following day- if the essay had been done and chalked up as a life lesson there would have been no need to drag into a second day. I can only imagine the anxiety the child felt that evening worrying about not doing the punishment essay. If every child spoke when they felt like it, even if only once or twice there would be complete chaos. I would imagine some of the helicopter, over-zealous, American-TV style Moms would be first in to complain about the drop in standards. Hell they might even sue!

*To the mother of the second child: Saying that your husband will be in is a threat. What teacher or principal needs to hear from two parents separately regarding one issue. Your child is one of 30. If you felt incapable of controlling your emotions without resorting to digs at the teacher you should have brought your husband with you. The issue has been blown out of all proportion. Not a life lesson your son needs. He won't be able to ignore a caution for speeding or parking i a loading bay later in life. Actions have consequences even when they aren't fun.

anneree

I agree with what you both have said in the sense of the disruption and fitted punishment as im well aware little johnnys are no angels all the time. I suppose im aggrieved mostly as the principle acussed me of threatning his teacher which I did not and also I felt he was demeaning in the way he purposfully ignored me on my way out. No matter how you look at it we were treated with total disrespect by that principal. To even ring me with he said she said when he could have sat in on the meeting.. and before you say hes busy etc etc why wasnt he to busy to call me the next morning accusing me of something I did not do. I do appreciate the responses though im trying to see things from both sides which I can see there is a grey area. Im still uphappy about the way it went and for the record his words were he will not have a member of staff threatened so therefore she told him that is what I did. I respect teachers and know they have their hands full a lot of the time but I haveto say I found this all very uunprofessional and has left a sour taste in my mouth. Why did he not ask me even on the phone how did the meeting go instead of jumping to accusations and making the situation worse. I left the meeting with the teacher on a friendly level that day. There are procedures for complaints and the way I was dealt with was agressive and rude and not of any principle ive ever dealt with previously. Both these people have just arrived in this school this incident happened in october one month into the school year.. why did they not ask what type of child he was or was he a troublemaker etc also the teacher in question makes them sit at their desks during lunch break and while they are allowed speak yo the person next to them they are not allowed to sit or talk to their friends so that will answer the talking in class question because that was the first thing I said to my son was that he wasnt allowed speak in class only at lunch time when he told me he wasnt allowed at lunch either and the teacher confirmed this saying she needed to have control.. in all my years ive never come across that.. lunch is lunch, free time catch up get the energy out etc etc. Ive 3 sons this lad is the youngest so im not blinded by any little johnny stories. I work dealing with the public myself and feel this whole ordeal was wrong on every level. That is why my trust in these people is gone. I do take onboard all of your responses and do admit I was worked up I did say this to the teacher at the end of our meeting tho and thanked her and left I felt on good terms but she obviously needed to dramatise thr incident to her superiors who in turn reacted so badly that ive lost all faith in both.

seavill

I'll be honest.

Your issue was the punishment etc. Mainly. However from your last post this is not actually your issue. This is what lead to your issue.

Being honest again whether you agree or not the way you yourself described the conversation with the teacher it definitely reads as overly aggressive.
The teacher may have left what seemed calm but it would appear that they were just trying to avoid a larger confrontation.

If you had someone come into you "sternly" talk to you. Speak about how their husband is also not happy indicating that he will also he in. You were indeed overly aggressive and confrontational. No matter how the teacher reacted they may have felt threatened or upset after it. It usually is upsetting if a parent comes in being aggressive. Whatever brave face you initially put on.
I had a colleague in years yesterday to the boys face she stood her ground and defended herself but in the staff room she was in tears.

Whether you like it or not by your own description you came across aggressive and possibly disrespectful. And as we would teach the kids if that's the way you treat others that us the way you will be treated.

You may not agree with me but that is what I got from YOUR side of the story.

Hopefully it will all work out.

If there had been no issues up to now you admit he spoke out of turn in class he was involved in the laser incident. The school disciplined him.
I would personally leave it at that as your main issue is how you were spoken to not your kid at this stage.
Kids forgive and forget a few days later particularly boys unless they keep getting reminded of it. I would chalk it down to a life lesson and try move on. Get through one more week enjoy Christmas realise there is more to life than hanging onto these things and by jan just move on. He will certainly have moved on by then. Let him enjoy his last few months and by June you won't have to deal with the teacher or principAL again.

anneree

Yes I suppose you are right maybe she was upset that was not my intention I got cross on my way into the meeting when I saw my son crying again. If it were just the punishment there would be no reason to come here its more the collatrol damage that came afterwards. He had his parent teacher meeting a few weeks ago and I didnt go simply because my husband couldnt and I wouldnt meet her alone again. In fact im going to let his fater deal with them from now on as I would prefer not to. His dad did ring after the principle rang me and he said oh it must have been a misunderstang. Or crosswires somewhere. Still no apology . Im getting from you that it would be wrong to remove him esp when his brothers have gone there aswell but I will let his dad deal with things in future and hope that they are not going to start singling him out now because of this. I will have to wait and see I suppose. Can u give me ur opinion on the lunch situation ive never heard of it to be honest?

lily09

On the lunch thing, is this during eating time as i presume they play on yard for a break. I dont allow mine talk during eating time as i read to them. Otherwise they spend the whole time talking and then i have parents coming in to know why lunch is not eaten. They have a short time to eat as they need more time to play om yard.

paleo muinteoir

Lunch time is exactly the same for me. Eating time, inside, is short and i read to them too (mine are junior infants). They also remain seated at this time. Otherwise, nothing would get eaten and there would be food EVERYWHERE.

When they've finished, they then go outside and have plenty of time and space to chat / run around / etc.

I'd be fairly surprised if many primary students were allowed to move freely around the classroom during lunch (eating) time.

Big Bag of Chips

anneree wrote: »

I told him I was going to speak with her first and we would do the essay that evening instead as he was crying over the cleaning and had refused to go on his knees cleaning. Teacher took it as cheek and gave him the essay so I decided to see what was going on before I made him do it.

So he had refused to do one punishment given to him by the teacher, and then you told him not to do the other one.

Bad move. You should have made him do the essay, it wasn't going to kill him or have any lasting affects on him, and THEN you should have gone in to speak with the teacher about whether or not you thought the punishment was disproportionate. All you've done now is caused the teacher to lose authority over him. If she punishes him for something again, he'll just think "Sure I'll go home to mam, and she won't make me do it".

I have had my own issues with teachers, but as far as my kids are concerned, we are a united front! Same way as I'd never undermine their dad's authority in front of them, nor him mine, I wouldn't dream of undermining the teacher's authority in front of them either.

If the teacher punishes them, it's because they feel they have done wrong. If my child is insistent that I need to go in to explain, or clarify things, I do... but never ever at the expense of the teacher's authority. And, trying to understand what it is like to keep 30 kids under control, everyday, and educate and entertain them at the same time, I am always willing to give the teacher the benefit of the doubt over my child... unless problems become more than an isolated incident.

I think you handled this one badly.

clairefontaine

It was inappropriate discipline. He should not have been humiliated. If you bully your students they will lose respect for you.

byhookorbycrook

Humiliated how? Was he asked to get on his knees with a toothbrush in front of the whole school?