A woman's response/rant against "real men" posts on the internet

iptba

I thought this was an interesting post that could be interesting to have a thread on:
http://hausfraud.blogspot.ie/2013/11/hey-women-men-are-people-too.html

donfers

very insightful, yet so few are aware that sexism is a two-way street especially in their quest to excuse any kind of behaviour, no matter how appalling as "empowering" or cry victim and blame anything but themselves when something goes wrong

"In today's culture, a man's chief duty is to everyone else, while a woman's foremost duty is to herself. A woman is entitled to a good man, while a man must fight, jump through hoops, beg for and otherwise "earn" a good woman."

Morf

Interesting coming from a woman.

It seems to cover pretty well arguments that a lot of men have been making for quite a while.

Santa Cruz

I recall seeing a man holding a door open for a woman in the office and she said "Just because I am a woman dosent mean I can't open the door myself" He hit back " I'm not holding it because of your gender. I'm holding it open because of your age"
1 nil

Wibbs

Makes some great points alright. I'd say a lot of that is more applicable to the US. You certainly read more entitlement/I want it both ways and both in my favour type stuff coming from there. Far more men actively avoiding marriage because of their divorce setup and that sort of thing. Yea there can be some of that going on in Ireland, but not nearly to the same degree IMH.

The comment section was interesting. The commenter who spelled women as womyn. Jesus. Get a grip love.

GalwayGuy2

@Wibbs

I did always get a chivalric vibe off American Feminist movements. If you read between the lines, there's does seem to be a men protect the woman vibe.

She raises some good point. From an arguing point of view, I wish she didn't say the only have sex when I feel like it line. That really is waving a red flag to a bull and opening yourself to accusations of condoning rape.

whupdedo

GalwayGuy2 wrote: »

@Wibbs

I did always get a chivalric vibe off American Feminist movements. If you read between the lines, there's does seem to be a men protect the woman vibe.

She raises some good point. From an arguing point of view, I wish she didn't say the only have sex when I feel like it line. That really is waving a red flag to a bull and opening yourself to accusations of condoning rape.

How in the name of God could you possibly get accusations of condoning rape from that article

GalwayGuy2

I didn't, and I wouldn't, get that from the article, but some people would.

Someone could make the argument that this sentence:

Sex? Only if she feels like it.

Implies that a woman should have sex if she doesn't feel like it. And this would be argued back to male entitlement and, as it's one theory for rape, back to condoning rape.

Again, I do not believe the argument above. At all. But, I guarantee the above argument could be used to discredit the whole piece.

whupdedo

GalwayGuy2 wrote: »

I didn't, and I wouldn't, get that from the article, but some people would.

Someone could make the argument that this sentence:



Implies that a woman should have sex if she doesn't feel like it. And this would be argued back to male entitlement and, as it's one theory for rape, back to condoning rape.

Again, I do not believe the argument above. At all. But, I guarantee the above argument could be used to discredit the whole piece.

Fair enough and when put like that, theirs always someone that will twist it i guess

py2006

Have to agree with this:

If a woman bullies a man, she's fighting off her male oppressors. Good for her. If a man bullies a woman, lock him up. If a woman abandons her family, she probably wasn't happy at home. If a man abandons his family, he's a deadbeat. If a girl breaks a guy's heart, she deserved better anyway. If a guy breaks a girl's heart, he let a good thing go. If a girl want's out of the friend zone, she's following her heart. If a guy wants out of the friend zone, he's got ulterior motives.

py2006

and this says it all:

In spite of the popular idea that women want to be equals, they also still want to be princesses. That is to say, they want the best that chivalry and equality have to offer with none of the responsibility to anyone but themselves. Every woman hopes and expects to be treated like a princess by her man, but none of them want to treat their man like a king. In a world where women can own property, support themselves and otherwise live independently, they still quantify their relationships according to what the man can offer. Does he take you on nice dates? Did he buy you a big rock? Does he patiently wait out all your emotional tirades? Does he think you're beautiful all the time? Is he emotionally available? Is he a good father? Does he have a good job? And, most importantly, DOES HE EXPECT NOTHING IN RETURN?

beano345

I was always for equality....but that goes all across the board not bits and pieces that some choose to pick when they want or suits them

CrinkElite

I was listening to RTE radio one afternoon this week (can't remember the show) to a long discussion of the plight of female convicts in Ireland.

There was a vox-pop type piece with interview bytes from several recidivist females.

They all openly stated that their reasons for repeat offending stemmed directly from their desire to remain in prison.

Every woman interviewed cited the prospect of free rent, private room (with private TV), free meals, free heating etc as their primary motivation for re-offending .

Now I'm no incarceration enthusiast and I certainly lean towards rehabilitation rather than punishment
but what amazed me was the utter one-sided nature of the conversation that followed.

The presenter and his guests proceeded to wring their hands about the lack of support for these women and the failure of the state to provide adequately for them when they're released.

I couldn't help but laugh as I imagined the conversation they'd be having if the interviewees had been male. The rightous indignation that they'd be pouring over the prisoners and the prison system that makes things too easy on them.

Desperate and blatant gender inequality IMO.

Galwayguy35

Interesting read all right.

raze_them_all_

I have to sya for the most part Irish women aren't that bad, but I remember once I hooked up with a girl and she actually came out with the line of " I have the pussy you have to do what I say" like I was a slave to sex. Some women honestly believe that men are walking penises with no cohearent thoughts of sex and your one had literally no clue as to why I told her to leave my house

Femme_Fatale

Lots of us women are aware of the double standard. It'd be nice if we didn't all get blamed for it, and if it were acknowledged that it's not always women who are responsible for it. This woman says absolutely nothing new or insightful, and it's not unusual coming from a woman. Loads of us women are very aware of it - try to work against it, but are constantly up against being shoved in with less aware women.

py2006 wrote: »

and this says it all:

Says what "all"?

And yes, people (male or female) should have sex only when they feel like it.

iptba

py2006 wrote: »

and this says it all:

In spite of the popular idea that women want to be equals, they also still want to be princesses. That is to say, they want the best that chivalry and equality have to offer with none of the responsibility to anyone but themselves. Every woman hopes and expects to be treated like a princess by her man, but none of them want to treat their man like a king. In a world where women can own property, support themselves and otherwise live independently, they still quantify their relationships according to what the man can offer. Does he take you on nice dates? Did he buy you a big rock? Does he patiently wait out all your emotional tirades? Does he think you're beautiful all the time? Is he emotionally available? Is he a good father? Does he have a good job? And, most importantly, DOES HE EXPECT NOTHING IN RETURN?

One thing I wonder about is the division of labour in the home. It seems ok for a woman to ask her male partner to do various jobs around the house. What chores/tasks are men allowed ask their female partner to do for them? There seems to be an attitude promoted by some that men shouldn't ask for things, or certainly some things. So that a woman would be entitled to react angrily if they were asked to do something (and given one might not know what they would react to, a man might then be wary of ever asking).

py2006

iptba wrote: »

One thing I wonder about is the division of labour in the home. It seems ok for a woman to ask her male partner to do various jobs around the house. What chores/tasks are men allowed ask their female partner to do for them? There seems to be an attitude promoted by some that men shouldn't ask for things, or certainly some things.

I haven't really experienced a division of labour. To me once you clean up after yourself everybody is happy.

iptba

py2006 wrote: »

I haven't really experienced a division of labour. To me once you clean up after yourself everybody is happy.

So women do the same amount of DIY as men, for example? That's not my impression in lots of houses.

Soft Falling Rain

Wibbs wrote: »

Makes some great points alright. I'd say a lot of that is more applicable to the US. You certainly read more entitlement/I want it both ways and both in my favour type stuff coming from there. Far more men actively avoiding marriage because of their divorce setup and that sort of thing. Yea there can be some of that going on in Ireland, but not nearly to the same degree IMH.

The comment section was interesting. The commenter who spelled women as womyn. Jesus. Get a grip love.

Oh it happens here alright, just the other night a female colleague had a drunken go at me for being too soft/sensitive. Even though I was never in a situation that would make her think that, it was just something she perceived in me.

But the way she was speaking felt very much like an attack on my manliness, cos real men are hard and shouldn't display any softness.

Of course, when I happily asked her what she meant as I was genuinely interested in why she thought that, I got "See! You wouldn't be asking what I meant if you weren't sensitive!" in response. :rolleyes:

Femme_Fatale

py2006 wrote: »

I haven't really experienced a division of labour. To me once you clean up after yourself everybody is happy.

But you do agree "every" woman hopes and expects to be treated like a princess by her man, but none of them want to treat their man like a king.

py2006

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Says what "all"?

While your input is appreciated, please don't try to belittle the very real experiences of a lot of men. For far too long men have been perceived as the 'bad' gender in all avenues of life. Its rare we are allowed to point the finger in the other direction and there are some genuine reasons to do so and this forum allows is the discuss some of those.

I'm delighted you are not one of these women.

Femme_Fatale

py2006 wrote: »

While your input is appreciated, please don't try to belittle the very real experiences of a lot of men. For far too long men have been perceived as the 'bad' gender in all avenues of life.

Why can't this very valid issue be discussed without all the hostility towards women and the "Every woman" stuff?

By the way, I am not belittling the experiences of men - I'm well aware of the crap men can have to deal with purely just for being men. This woman's approach is wrong though, IMO - it's very provocative in order to stir. Let alone the staggering irony of her being a woman and saying no woman wants to treat her man like a king in return for him treating her like a princess (so she applies that to herself?) and it's out of order for a woman to have sex only when she feels like it... what the actual fuk...? Again, is she applying this to herself too? Or is it just all other women? I suspect the latter.

py2006

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

But you do agree "every" woman hopes and expects to be treated like a princess by her man, but none of them want to treat their man like a king.

To a certain extent yes. Some are obviously far worse than others.


EDIT: Ok I was drunk when posting that. Ok the King treatment is way out there but yes there are a lot of women out there that expect a lot of 'gentlemanly' behaviour from men.

GalwayGuy2

Why can't this very valid issue be discussed without all the hostility towards women and the "Every woman" stuff?

Meh, I don't reckon there's hostility towards women in this thread. People talking about serious issues, with seriously dedicated advocates on both sides, get a little bit riled up and snarky. As a man, you do have to be careful and not be misconstrued as a misogynist. But it does seem to be going that way for women as well.

I have to admit, I hope you complain about 'hostility towards men' when you see it?

Femme_Fatale

GalwayGuy2 wrote: »

Meh, I don't reckon there's hostility towards women in this thread.

Not even a person saying no woman wants to treat her man like a king in return for him treating her like a princess despite never knowing all women?

I have to admit, I hope you complain about 'hostility towards men' when you see it?

I absolutely do. And I'm not sure what led to you asking the question.

Santa Cruz

Why is it ok for a woman to give a man a present of toolbox, spanner set etc. for Christmas but if he gives her a nice new iron and ironing board he is the worst in the world

Morf

GalwayGuy2 wrote: »

@Wibbs

I did always get a chivalric vibe off American Feminist movements. If you read between the lines, there's does seem to be a men protect the woman vibe.

She raises some good point. From an arguing point of view, I wish she didn't say the only have sex when I feel like it line. That really is waving a red flag to a bull and opening yourself to accusations of condoning rape.

6 posts in and we already have men being associated with rape.

I'm not sure women need to be extreme feminists any more with lads coming to these conclusions.

Femme_Fatale

Morf wrote: »

6 posts in and we already have men being associated with rape.

I'm not sure women need to be extreme feminists any more with lads coming to these conclusions.

You're only reading what you want to read. The sentence, written by a woman, "Women only have sex when they feel like it" is questionable - and GalwayGuy merely pointed that out, adding that he wouldn't read condoning of rape into it, but it's a sentence that doesn't do the writer any favours.

And he's right. It's an utterly bizarre thing to say that it's unreasonable for anyone, male or female, to have sex only when they feel like it...
Does she mean people should have sex even when they don't feel like it? Because that's what she seems to be saying.

Gentleman Octopus

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

It's an utterly bizarre thing to say that it's unreasonable for anyone, male or female, to have sex only when they feel like it...
Does she mean people should have sex even when they don't feel like it? Because that's what she seems to be saying.

I think she means between people within a relationship, rather than after meeting someone on a night out or something like that.
I will have sex with my girlfriend when she wants to but I'm not really in the mood (not every time of course) and vice versa. Compromise is an importantaspect of a relationship and I think that's one of the points she was trying to make, the women she was referring to seem so entitled to take but are unwilling to give back in return.

Wibbs

raze_them_all_ wrote: »

I have to sya for the most part Irish women aren't that bad, but I remember once I hooked up with a girl and she actually came out with the line of " I have the pussy you have to do what I say" like I was a slave to sex. Some women honestly believe that men are walking penises with no cohearent thoughts of sex and your one had literally no clue as to why I told her to leave my house

IME that mindset to one degree or other is common enough among some women, but usually only with younger women is it that overt(older, if so inclined tends to do the sex as a subtle bargaining tool dealio).

Why? Well an awful lot of it is down to young men*awaits flames*. These women feel entitled because they've seen the effect in real terms, of young(usually) men jumping through hoops to get into their knickers. Men who will continue to jump through hoops even if they're not getting any sexual/romance stuff in return. The "friendzone" dudes. They're giving away support/favours for free as it were and even if it's only subconsciously some women see this and use this*. If the woman is above average in looks among her peers she'll see this effect even more. Caveat. this is only a subsection of women, just like boorish gobshytes are a subsection of men. It's most certainly not all women. Not by a long shot. Plus they're easy to spot for the most part.








*I saw one sap get a call and drive all the way from Dublin to Cork to set up a TV sat dish thingie for this wan he had the unrequited hots for. And drove back that very day. She didn't even invite him to stay on the couch. No wonder she felt entitled. How I didn't lamp the head off him when I heard of this I'll never know.

GalwayGuy2

6 posts in and we already have men being associated with rape.

I'm not sure women need to be extreme feminists any more with lads coming to these conclusions.

Some extreme lad feminists will certainly come up with that argument. I was pointing it out and, in the post that you quoted, said I didn't think it was condoning rape.

Honestly, both sides will try to discredit the other side. There's no harm in being wary of being called a misogynist and, to a lesser extent, misandrist.

In retrospect, I think she was talking about a bit of a mixed message going on. If a woman does something to explicitly pleasure a man, then it's seen as oppressive. But if a man does something to explicitly pleasure a woman, then it is seen as progressive.

Mister R

Great piece I bookmarked it for future reference Sums up modern society perfectly. Also I can't deal with the second comment about how women see unrealistic expectations of themselves in the media. Men have body issues too which never get addressed, like I don't feel great about myself when I see guys with six packs, pecs and nice arms etc.

py2006

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Why can't this very valid issue be discussed without all the hostility towards women and the "Every woman" stuff?

By the way, I am not belittling the experiences of men - I'm well aware of the crap men can have to deal with purely just for being men.

I am not sure where you are getting the hostility but I am glad you are well aware of 'the crap men have to deal with' but unfortunately not everyone is aware of it.

cantdecide

Mister R wrote: »

Great piece I bookmarked it for future reference Sums up modern society perfectly. Also I can't deal with the second comment about how women see unrealistic expectations of themselves in the media. Men have body issues too which never get addressed, like I don't feel great about myself when I see guys with six packs, pecs and nice arms etc.

+1

eg, you have to laugh at this!

I've never had a great self image and I know that I'm probably never going to find myself surrounded by girl boners I know I can't stop myself being excessively hard on myself. However, where women who are being buffeted by pressure to look this, that and the other way, often by women's magazines and similar media, there is an opposing drive for women to not fall for the hysteria. However, it is increasingly acceptable these days for men to be pressured to be buff, ripped and a ton of other terms I don't understand.

Sleepy

raze_them_all_ wrote: »

I have to sya for the most part Irish women aren't that bad, but I remember once I hooked up with a girl and she actually came out with the line of " I have the pussy you have to do what I say" like I was a slave to sex. Some women honestly believe that men are walking penises with no cohearent thoughts of sex and your one had literally no clue as to why I told her to leave my house

A good friend of mine is with a girl like this. Only thing he seems to get out of the relationship is regular sex whilst she gets a taxi-driver, a babysitter, a house cleaner, someone to split the bills with and an all purpose skivvy... whilst pressuring him into not seeing his friends or pursuing his hobbies. She's one of those "any engagement ring would have to cost five figures" types and constantly drops "hints" about that and whining about how she wants more kids...

He's utterly pussy blinded though so all we can do is hope he finally sees sense before she has an "accident" with contraception.

Sauve

Sleepy wrote: »

A good friend of mine is with a girl like this. Only thing he seems to get out of the relationship is regular sex whilst she gets a taxi-driver, a babysitter, a house cleaner, someone to split the bills with and an all purpose skivvy... whilst pressuring him into not seeing his friends or pursuing his hobbies. She's one of those "any engagement ring would have to cost five figures" types and constantly drops "hints" about that and whining about how she wants more kids...

He's utterly pussy blinded though so all we can do is hope he finally sees sense before she has an "accident" with contraception.

I'd be sitting a friend like that down for a good long chat tbh. What you're describing borders on emotional abuse.

Sleepy

Unfortunately, a closer friend than me has had that chat already... he seems to think he can change her / help her grow up.

Sauve

Sleepy wrote: »

Unfortunately, a closer friend than me has had that chat already... he seems to think he can change her / help her grow up.

People like that don't change. Like you said, let's hope the penny drops for him.

Soft Falling Rain

Doesn't sound like she has to grow up, sounds like she knows exactly what she's doing. What you are describing is not a case of immaturity IMO.

clairefontaine

Santa Cruz wrote: »

Why is it ok for a woman to give a man a present of toolbox, spanner set etc. for Christmas but if he gives her a nice new iron and ironing board he is the worst in the world

Not true. Plenty of women would love a kitchen aid mixer. Or a gift cert to Sephora.

I need an iron if anyone wants to buy me one for Christmas. No promise that I'll use it though.

Blog is a crock of ****.

CdeC

GalwayGuy2 wrote: »

wrote:

Sex? Only if she feels like it.

Implies that a woman should have sex if she doesn't feel like it. And this would be argued back to male entitlement and, as it's one theory for rape, back to condoning rape.

Again, I do not believe the argument above. At all. But, I guarantee the above argument could be used to discredit the whole piece.

I might suggest that she was implying that the woman is the one who decides when sex is had in the relationship and that the man is viewed as a hungry dog who is always ready to hop to it.

This is wrong, sex should be when both are in the mood.

Ms. Pingui

Sleepy wrote: »

A good friend of mine is with a girl like this. Only thing he seems to get out of the relationship is regular sex whilst she gets a taxi-driver, a babysitter, a house cleaner, someone to split the bills with and an all purpose skivvy... whilst pressuring him into not seeing his friends or pursuing his hobbies. She's one of those "any engagement ring would have to cost five figures" types and constantly drops "hints" about that and whining about how she wants more kids...

He's utterly pussy blinded though so all we can do is hope he finally sees sense before she has an "accident" with contraception.

If it's his own child it's not babysitting, it's called parenting.

clairefontaine

Ms. Pingui wrote: »

If it's his own child it's not babysitting, it's called parenting.

I'd add the cleaning and the errand running to that too.

HansHolzel

I never liked Ally McBeal but I did spot something funny in it one night, while flicking.

A female lawyer representing the man in a divorce case accused the woman of having entered the marriage with an agenda. When the woman denied this the lawyer told her to be honest; that every woman enters a marriage with at least one basic agenda...

"To change his dress sense, cut him off from his friends and undermine his whole way of life."

Santa Cruz

Santa Cruz wrote: »

Why is it ok for a woman to give a man a present of toolbox, spanner set etc. for Christmas but if he gives her a nice new iron and ironing board he is the worst in the world

Lots of men will count DIY among their hobbies. I know a few guys who are into carpentry, for example.

Very few women will consider ironing a hobby.

iptba

clairefontaine wrote: »

Santa Cruz wrote:

View Post
Why is it ok for a woman to give a man a present of toolbox, spanner set etc. for Christmas but if he gives her a nice new iron and ironing board he is the worst in the world

Not true. Plenty of women would love a kitchen aid mixer. Or a gift cert to Sephora.

I need an iron if anyone wants to buy me one for Christmas. No promise that I'll use it though.

You say "anyone". However what I believe is being talked about is as a present from one's romantic partner. I think most men would be wary of giving kitchen utensils as the sole gift(s) for Christmas or a birthday; and the impression out there is that most women wouldn't be happy either (I recall jokes of women stabbing men for giving such gifts).

iptba

iptba wrote: »

You say "anyone". However what I believe is being talked about is as a present from one's romantic partner. I think most men would be wary of giving kitchen utensils as the sole gift(s) for Christmas or a birthday; and the impression out there is that most women wouldn't be happy either (I recall jokes of women stabbing men for giving such gifts).

I know women who've gratefully received cookware and sewing machines as gifts from partners, because of their interest in cooking and crafts.

Being given household essentials isn't much of a gift if you're not interested in it beyond necessity, but if it's about hobbies then I see no problem with toolkits or Le Creuset or whatever.

My dad likes woodwork, my mother likes cooking. They've happily exchanged gifts related to those hobbies.

Vacuum cleaners and irons aren't possible hobbyist items in the same way the above examples are, they're just household essentials, and so are fairly thoughtless gifts imo.

HansHolzel

How about giving a guy - who's into plumbing - a plunger and toilet brush?

HansHolzel

HansHolzel wrote: »

How about giving a guy - who's into plumbing - a plunger and toilet brush?

I can't imagine anyone being delighted with a gift of a toilet brush. Unless they have very niche interests indeed.

Femme_Fatale

HansHolzel wrote: »

I never liked Ally McBeal but I did spot something funny in it one night, while flicking.

A female lawyer representing the man in a divorce case accused the woman of having entered the marriage with an agenda. When the woman denied this the lawyer told her to be honest; that every woman enters a marriage with at least one basic agenda...

"To change his dress sense, cut him off from his friends and undermine his whole way of life."

The implication being, presumably, that the female lawyer was the type who'd enter a marriage with an agenda, and applied her outlook to all women rather than speaking for herself?