The Game By Neil strauss

Czarcasm

old hippy wrote: »

Not at all, I was waiting for an actual pseud to come along and loftily pass judgement. Mind you, on a topic such as this one, I didn't have to wait long at all. It seems to attract a certain sort from the pro and anti camp.

Next!

Nothing pseud or lofty about it hippy, I'd read the back of a cornflake box if put in front of me, I read all sorts of stupid shìt. Only this morning I was in a well known book store intending to buy the complete works of Shakespeare in bound book form for my young lad for €30 for Christmas (He has them as an app on his tablet, but you can't beat a book!), but then I spotted the complete works of Oscar Wilde for €8 and the complete novels of James Joyce for €15, bargain and bargain, then I spotted a Seamus Heaney box set and thought "I can't walk out without that!", but upon checking the price I nearly dropped on the spot - €80!! :eek:

I like Seamus Heaney's writings, and I'd love to have got them for the young lad, but that price gave me butterflies in my wallet :pac:

old hippy

Czarcasm wrote: »

Nothing pseud or lofty about it hippy, I'd read the back of a cornflake box if put in front of me, I read all sorts of stupid shìt. Only this morning I was in a well known book store intending to buy the complete works of Shakespeare in bound book form for my young lad for €30 for Christmas (He has them as an app on his tablet, but you can't beat a book!), but then I spotted the complete works of Oscar Wilde for €8 and the complete novels of James Joyce for €15, bargain and bargain, then I spotted a Seamus Heaney box set and thought "I can't walk out without that!", but upon checking the price I nearly dropped on the spot - €80!! :eek:

I like Seamus Heaney's writings, and I'd love to have got them for the young lad, but that price gave me butterflies in my wallet :pac:

80 quid???? Jeez! Your boy has excellent taste; am impressed.

I don't often buy new - we have a wealth of charity shops and I can get good condition books from 50p to £3. Not that I'm suggesting you buy second hand gifts for xmas, mind.

Pug160

I was flicking through a book earlier and read a few interesting things. The author drew comparisons between men who are unsuccessful with women and gay men who feel as though they are not living up to expectations. So it's basically the same feelings of inadequacy and of being less of a man as a consequence. Of course, the main difference is that one is self inflicted (to a certain degree at least) and one is not.

Pen.Island

Pug160 wrote: »

I was flicking through a book earlier and read a few interesting things. The author drew comparisons between men who are unsuccessful with women and gay men who feel as though they are not living up to expectations. So it's basically the same feelings of inadequacy and of being less of a man as a consequence. Of course, the main difference is that one is self inflicted (to a certain degree at least) and one is not.

Why take one books views over another?

You obviously had your mind made up to begin with.

Pug160

Pen.Island wrote: »

Why take one books views over another?

You obviously had your mind made up to begin with.

About what? It all seems perfectly logical to me. Certainly nothing that's controversial (I would have thought).

Pen.Island

Pug160 wrote: »

About what? It all seems perfectly logical to me. Certainly nothing that's controversial (I would have thought).

You just read someones opinion in a book and took it as fact.

Pug160

Daveysil15

This topic has been covered a few times. I remember a couple of years ago there was a similar thread and there was a guy who had aspergers who said it had worked well for him. I think there are some decent guys who can take away the good points from this PUA material (if there are any), and discard the rest. Not everyone takes it as gospel. Then you have guys like balaclava who probably have issues with women before ever picking up a book. You're either a prat or you're not. I don't think any PUA book is automatically going to turn you into a conniving misogynist.

I haven't read much of the PUA myself, but I have seen some videos on youtube of guys practicing their "day game." It just seems very American and not the sot of thing that would work well here where approaching people outside of the pub/club scene is not the norm.

And that brings me to the nights out, and this is the bit I don't get. How do you employ these techniques in a crowded noisy envoirnment where people are pissed and you almost have to resort to shouting in someone's ear to have a conversation? And yes I'm aware of the saying, "if its too loud you're too old" so don't bother pointing that out.

Someone mentioned earlier about guys using PUA to lie and manipulate women into bed, but plenty of men do this anyway, and they're not all pick up artists. As I said, you're either a prat or you're not. What's worrying to me is that women are starting to become more aware of this which may make them even more defensive and wary of a guys intentions. This in turn could make things more difficult for the decent men who actually want to meet women and are not just treating them as objects. But I suppose the attraction is either there or it isn't.

Balaclava1991

Easily one of the best PUA coaches is Richard Le Ruina who teaches natural game.

wp_rathead

I really despise the term "friend zone"

Jesus Wept

Balaclava1991 wrote: »

Easily one of the best PUA coaches is Richard Le Ruina who teaches natural game.

How to get back with your ex girlfriend,
Step 1, break up with her.

...makes sense.

Balaclava1991 wrote: »

Not having a go at you whatsoever, his advice seems piss poor.
'make an excuse to go to the bedroom like there is a mouse or your brother in law in the living room.'

mmhm.

The very first step is missing:

Step one: find an incredible dim and credulous target...

Wibbs

Balaclava1991 wrote: »

Easily one of the best PUA coaches is Richard Le Ruina who teaches natural game.

He's a good looking guy. The chances are a lot of the guys buying his pitch are well... not.

***Caveat for following*** when I say "men" or "women" I'm talking in generalisations. It does not apply specifically to individuals. PITA to have to point this out but....

Having a think about this the other day, I did have a weird notion why this negging/alpha guff may work on some women. Particularly young women. While young males will be competitive to get the attention of young women, women tend to smooth out the rough edges of young males. Classing them as immature has an effect. They say women mature faster than men. I'm not so sure(certainly not emotionally). But they do mature socially much earlier as a general thing. They start to act like proto adults and expect that in the men. Men have to at least act more like adults around women. There is an element in the female psyche that plugs into the notion of taming men. The Beauty and the Beast archetype/meme. In such cases the already "tamed" quieter men are less attractive to those women who plug into that meme. The untamed "bad boys" on the other hand are like catnip for a woman who feels that kinda need. I've even seen this in my own life. Way back in the day(early 20's) I was seeing this woman. I was going through a bit of a dickish phase TBH(I know, hard to believe). Anyway I overheard her and her mates chatting and them saying "oh he's such a dick etc". Her response was "oh he's so different with me" and it was a near boast. I wasn't BTW. I'll also say at that age I got far more attention from women the more disinterested in them I acted. Not being a dick BTW. I mean just not pursuing them much if at all. I've found at that age anyway women are like cats and men are like dogs. The latter come a running the more encouragement you give, with the former, it's usually more successful to stand stock still while they come over to you.

As women get older they lose this need to socialise men as the men have gotten older and have calmed down. So you see far fewer women going for badboys in their 30's. Even among women whose near sole type when they were 25 was a bad boy.

My take anyway and AGAIN THESE ARE GENERALISATIONS lest boxers or knickers get bunched.

Wibbs

Our Year wrote: »

How to get back with your ex girlfriend,
Step 1, break up with her.

...makes sense.

Actually it does OY. I've seen it work. I couldn't "pick up" to save my life :) but I have had success with getting mates girlfriends/boyfriends to come back. I mainly did it not so they'd be happy ever after, but more so my mates could see that ye broke up cos it was broken so this way with a bit of a rematch you can lose a fair chunk of the "what if" and then move on.

Anyway, that step 1 is a good one IME. Works on men and women BTW. Reverse psychology and all that. Person thinking of leaving may be in the "I'm not sure/confused" stage so calls a "break". if the one getting dumped spots this and calls a break before the dumper this can rattle cages. If they are sure at least the dumped won't be left wondering if a break is a breakup. It (almost) always is. If someone is running away the natural tendency is to run after them, even if you're not quite sure why. Standing still or walking away first often has the other party doing the running. Ditto if someone calls for a break to see... blah blah. Call their bluff and say nope lets breakup for good. In an agreeable way of course. Again if it's a breakup you'll find out on the spot. If not they'll come back. However why would you want them back? If they don't know their own emotional state then they're hardly worth hanging around for, are they? On that score, in each case(but one) of the couples I helped who got back together they split for good within 6 months anyway and half the time it was the original dumpee that became the dumper.

I didn't watch the rest TBH.

Czarcasm

Wibbs wrote: »

He's a good looking guy. The chances are a lot of the guys buying his pitch are well... not.

I know Wibbs looks are subjective and all, and I said it'd be unfair to comment on these guys looks, but as Oscar Wilde would say - "I can resist anything but temptation"...

The guy looks like a French Dean Gaffney!

Rest of your post is spot on though, immature girls do love their drama. and immature guys do love to rack 'em up 'n' knock 'em down. Most people DO grow out of that mindset though as they get into their 20's and learn that there's more to life than putting up with head melts, things like actually making a career for themselves or some other long term life goals besides chasing after a guy to tame them or guys notching up nicks on the bedpost.

Femme_Fatale

Guys, ignore Balaclava.

wprathead wrote: »

I really despise the term "friend zone"

Yep, a whingey phrase made up by guys who reckon the woman they fancy owes them sex.

Legs.Eleven

Is the idea of PUA to score very young women i.e. under 23, say?

Czarcasm

Wibbs wrote: »

Actually it does OY. I've seen it work. I couldn't "pick up" to save my life :) but I have had success with getting mates girlfriends/boyfriends to come back. I mainly did it not so they'd be happy ever after, but more so my mates could see that ye broke up cos it was broken so this way with a bit of a rematch you can lose a fair chunk of the "what if" and then move on.

I can certainly relate to that one anyway, and it was actually thinking about this thread that I was reminded early on of a guy I worked with a couple of years back who's girlfriend worked in the same company, and she cheated on him to hook up with another guy (I know, 'twas a virtual hotbed of hormones this place, disgraceful behaviour ). Completely crushed the chap.

I genuinely felt bad for the guy so I invited him out for a few drinks. We were giving it welly that night in the club when he started looking over my shoulder and I looked round to see what was catching his attention. Stunning looking girl, so I said "Off you go!"...

"I can't, I can't!" he says. Windows of opportunity and all that and his reluctance was ticking me off, so I went over to the girl and said "My mate over there has the hots for you but he just broke up with a girl and his confidence is after taking a knock, would you do me a favour and go over and have a chat with him?". Now he was a good looking guy so I knew this would be a piece of cake (I wasn't gonna put my own balls in a sling for nothing! :pac:).

They ended up going out anyway. Couple of weeks later anyway he was back with the ex! I was fairly curious so I asked him what happened between himself and the other girl?

"Oh she turned out to be a head melt after!". I just looked at him, and he goes "What? You'd swear I'd dumped YOU or something!". I thought to say "You arrogant little prick!", but then I figured the arrogant little prick that he was (now he'd got his ex back), he'd only love it.


Karma's a bitch though, and a couple of weeks later he was back with "We must go out for a drink, we haven't been out in a while?". Without so much as blinking I told him to fcuk right off out of my sight!

Pen.Island

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Guys, ignore Balaclava.

Yep, a whingey phrase made up by guys who reckon the woman they fancy owes them sex.

Some women eh? :rolleyes:

How about it's girls who lead guys on but then only want them as friends.

Femme_Fatale

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Guys, ignore Balaclava.

Yep, a whingey phrase made up by guys who reckon the woman they fancy owes them sex.

It's a way of apportioning blame imo.

'I got friendzoned' = I fancied her and didn't tell her, now we're friends and she has no idea how resentful I feel, but still - it's HER fault!

Czarcasm

Legs.Eleven wrote: »

Is the idea of PUA to score very young women i.e. under 23, say?

That's exactly it Legs, and it helps if they're incredibly naive too! The target demographic of the PUA audience is also naive men in their 20's who don't have a whole lot of social interaction instincts nor people skills, and like most men with a sense of entitlement in their 20's - they want everything dropped in their lap, including women!

When it doesn't happen, an ideology like PUA provides a convenient explanation and, erm, "solution".

Pen.Island

Pen.Island wrote: »

Some women eh? :rolleyes:

How about it's girls who lead guys on but then only want them as friends.

There are guys who think you're leading them on if you smile at them, or tell them the time, or don't tell them to fcuk off the first time you speak to them.

Femme_Fatale

Pen.Island wrote: »

Some women eh? :rolleyes:

How about it's girls who lead guys on but then only want them as friends.

Fair enough if it's deliberate leading on (which I know can happen to both sexes indeed) but sometimes what's deemed "leading on" is just being nice. She'd be deemed a bitch if she wasn't nice.

Mokuba

Have no time for PUA at all, except for guys like Whatever and LAHWF on Youtube who do funny pick up videos that I often watch. And laugh at. A lot.

Legs.Eleven

Czarcasm wrote: »

That's exactly it Legs, and it helps if they're incredibly naive too! The target demographic of the PUA audience is also naive men in their 20's who don't have a whole lot of social interaction instincts nor people skills, and like most men with a sense of entitlement in their 20's - they want everything dropped in their lap, including women!

When it doesn't happen, an ideology like PUA provides a convenient explanation and, erm, "solution".

I'm reading and watching (some) of this stuff and genuinely wondering how it could work on someone over that age unless they were incredibly dim (not suggesting young women are dim at all but I was quite innocent at that age and would fall for this guff).

Wibbs

Czarcasm wrote: »

I know Wibbs looks are subjective and all, and I said it'd be unfair to comment on these guys looks, but as Oscar Wilde would say - "I can resist anything but temptation"...

The guy looks like a French Dean Gaffney!

I dunno C, I'd reckon objectively speaking he'd appeal to a fair few women. He appears to be not short in height(going by the hired for the day models being likely 5 7 minus heels), symmetrical in face, not fat. Though we are arguing over the blokes looks C so maybe we'll draw a veil lest we stray into uncharted waters for us both.

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Yep, a whingey phrase made up by guys who reckon the woman they fancy owes them sex.

It certainly can be. It's almost always the man's fault for getting into the position too. However FF I have encountered more than once the type of woman that encourages and enables such behaviour. The types that have "satellite" men around them other than the boyfriend. Where they know the guy has feelings for them, but keep him around for other support, usually emotional. I've known a few who would even snog the guy once, then pull the "oh I think we made a mistake" stuff the next day. Adding in "I don't know how I feel, but not at the moment/you never know. I'm not in the right place". This ensures the bloke has some hope and sticks around. It's always BS though. Of course they can be in the right place a week later with the bloke that gets their engines revved. Like the blokes who come out with "I'm not ready for a relationship" when they actually mean "I'm not ready for a relationship with you".

I've seen/heard this one countless times. There are some right narcissistic bitches out there(then again I have a radar for the buggers so ). Hell more than once I was the "boyfriend/fling" while there was some other poor sap "friend" waiting in the wings listening to them(usually whinging about me :)). One guy I remember used to do this particular wagons course work for her, help her move gaff, put up shelves, bring her to dinner etc. All the while I was getting the bits he wanted and doing little enough beyond buying a few drinks and the odd dinner and night at the flix. This wan used to tell me about how she wasn't sure if she was hurting this bloke or not. I mean real narcissistic. All about her. Still she had a lovely arse. Yes I am that shallow or was at least. Plus early on I had my wagon detector going mad and had erected razorwire and watchtowers manned with spandaus around my emotions so was safe. TBH I buggered off when I just felt crap for this other poor bastard.

I'd also note that IME and IMHO narcissistic women never grow out of this kinda stuff. They get better at hiding it and it comes out in different ways, but it's always there in the background. I'd imagine similar of narcissistic men?

Legs.Eleven wrote: »

Is the idea of PUA to score very young women i.e. under 23, say?

Yea I'd reckon so. That's the age group of blokes it's primarily aimed at so... That said I mentioned earlier I did meet one of these UK "gurus" years ago and he was asking me what I reckoned to opening up the market(his words) to blokes my age(I was 40 at the time). Them and divorced guys who never learned "pickup" and "game". He reckoned it could have been a winner. I suggested unlikely as women the age group they'd be in would laugh at that stuff. Maybe socialising again how to books, but not PUA.

Wibbs

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Fair enough if it's deliberate leading on (which I know can happen to both sexes indeed) but sometimes what's deemed "leading on" is just being nice. She'd be deemed a bitch if she wasn't nice.

IMHO There's also another more deeply engrained primitive vibe at work FF. Women often have to thread a fine line of social interaction with men. Men tend to be more direct with each other and assume that's how women may think too. Women have to be more careful. An angry bloke has the capability to beat her up or worse, so that worry and potential risk can be in play, so some women may be noncommittal so they can dial him down until they can extract themselves. It's not that long ago in our cultural history as humans that beating the crap out of a woman wasn't that frowned upon. In some cultures today it's still the case. Go back in evolutionary history and a lone woman was fair game and in danger. It would make sense to have a system whereby women would seek to reduce those risks.

Legs.Eleven

Wibbs wrote: »

It certainly can be. It's almost always the man's fault for getting into the position too. However FF I have encountered more than once the type of woman that encourages and enables such behaviour. The types that have "satellite" men around them other than the boyfriend. Where they know the guy has feelings for them, but keep him around for other support, usually emotional. I've known a few who would even snog the guy once, then pull the "oh I think we made a mistake" stuff the next day. Adding in "I don't know how I feel, but not at the moment/you never know. I'm not in the right place". This ensures the bloke has some hope and sticks around. It's always BS though. Of course they can be in the right place a week later with the bloke that gets their engines revved. Like the blokes who come out with "I'm not ready for a relationship" when they actually mean "I'm not ready for a relationship with you".

I've seen/heard this one countless times. There are some right narcissistic bitches out there(then again I have a radar for the buggers so ). Hell more than once I was the "boyfriend/fling" while there was some other poor sap "friend" waiting in the wings listening to them(usually whinging about me :)). One guy I remember used to do this particular wagons course work for her, help her move gaff, put up shelves, bring her to dinner etc. All the while I was getting the bits he wanted and doing little enough beyond buying a few drinks and the odd dinner and night at the flix. This wan used to tell me about how she wasn't sure if she was hurting this bloke or not. I mean real narcissistic. All about her. Still she had a lovely arse. Yes I am that shallow or was at least. Plus early on I had my wagon detector going mad and had erected razorwire and watchtowers manned with spandaus around my emotions so was safe. TBH I buggered off when I just felt crap for this other poor bastard.

I'd also note that IME and IMHO narcissistic women never grow out of this kinda stuff. They get better at hiding it and it comes out in different ways, but it's always there in the background. I'd imagine similar of narcissistic men?

There is that side too and I've seen it at work alright. I know someone in passing who would be what you describe above. Nasty stuff. Yes, it is the man's responsibility to cop on and get out of there and not be so lead by his willy but easier said than done and women like that shouldn't be carrying on that way. It's not nice. Funny cos this woman I know would complain when she was treated in the very same way she treats fellas (ignored, strung along etc.) but if someone tried to subtly point it out to her, she gets quite testy.

Vitaliorange

Women of all ages like men who are cool and exhibit high status behaviours, that's not an "under 23 thing". PUA can teach you how to be those things.

On a tangent, one thing that is interesting about very attractive women is how long they can hold eye contact. Second only to babies in that regard . As an experiment, next time you naturally make eye contact with a very attractive women don't break it first, and keep a neutral facial expression. It is absolutely crazy how long they keep eye contact, ( in your head you will be thinking, wtf, why are you still staring, this is fukcing weird, but perseve)eventually though they will smile. Once she smiles then you can smile back. At that point its easy to walk ever and say hello and chat away.

smurgen

Wibbs wrote: »

It certainly can be. It's almost always the man's fault for getting into the position too. However FF I have encountered more than once the type of woman that encourages and enables such behaviour. The types that have "satellite" men around them other than the boyfriend. Where they know the guy has feelings for them, but keep him around for other support, usually emotional. I've known a few who would even snog the guy once, then pull the "oh I think we made a mistake" stuff the next day. Adding in "I don't know how I feel, but not at the moment/you never know.
I've seen/heard this one countless times. There are some right narcissistic bitches out there(then again I have a radar for the buggers so ). Hell more than once I was the "boyfriend/fling" while there was some other poor sap "friend" waiting in the wings listening to them(usually whinging about me :)). One guy I remember used to do this particular wagons course work for her, help her move gaff, put up shelves, bring her to dinner etc. All the while I was getting the bits he wanted and doing little enough beyond buying a few drinks and the odd dinner and night at the flix. This wan used to tell me about how she wasn't sure if she was hurting this bloke or not. I mean real narcissistic. All about her. Still she had a lovely arse. Yes I am that shallow or was at least. Plus early on I had my wagon detector going mad and had erected razorwire and watchtowers manned with spandaus around my emotions so was safe. TBH I buggered off when I just felt crap for this other poor bastard.

I'd also note that IME and IMHO narcissistic women never grow out of this kinda stuff. They get better at hiding it and it comes out in different ways, but it's always there in the background. I'd imagine similar of narcissistic men? .

this is absolutely spot on,you just described my ex girlfriend to a t! she has a new boyfriend for about a year now and she is constantly looking for attention off me still,even though she was the one that sent me on.
It's a weird situation but I've her figured out pretty well at this stage.any time she gets bored I guess she messages me,she loves the attention and I guess it gives her an ego boost.if I don't message her back or whatever she asks if I'm odd with her.I've gone a fair bit to distance myself from her but she's such a lasher and a laugh that it's hard to ignore her. A few months ago she asked me to come to her house party but warned that the new guy would be there. I snapped and told her I still fancied her, told her that I wasn't some gay best friend or anything like that and would never want to see this dude hanging off her she just apologized and said sorry for suggesting it.
not three months before she stormed out of a club because a girl threw the head on me in front of her,totally wasn't my fault!
I guess her own insecurities make her seek compliments from other men.we broke up because she had been messaging her ex,it seems to be an ongoing thing with her. she only gets away with it because she's a knockout.