Adult ADHD

Baltrux

Hi, I've looked for threads on adhd but there doesn't seen to be anything recent, Is there anyone that has experience with adult adhd, I have recently been diagnosed and am not sure where to go from here!

Valmont

What are you curious about, specifically?

deandean

Suggest you get a book or two on the subject.

e.g. amazon.co.uk and search for 'adult adhd' in books. Loads of them!

Baltrux

I suppose my biggest issues are motivation and procrastination, I have been told that "driven to distraction" is one of the best books to learn about it. Does anyone have any experience with the ADHD coaches?

Valmont

Baltrux wrote: »

I suppose my biggest issues are motivation and procrastination, I have been told that "driven to distraction" is one of the best books to learn about it. Does anyone have any experience with the ADHD coaches?

What does ADHD tell us about motivation and procrastination?

oppenheimer1

I was convinced I had adult ADHD as I am so fidgety, can't keep concentration and tend to never shut up when I really should. I went to a doctor and she just said it's normal and I shouldn't be looking for excuses for bad behaviour and to cop on more or less

Valmont

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

I was convinced I had adult ADHD as I am so fidgety, can't keep concentration and tend to never shut up when I really should. I went to a doctor and she just said it's normal and I shouldn't be looking for excuses for bad behaviour and to cop on more or less

What did you make of the doctor's opinion in this instance, oppenheimer? I'm just curious as another poster took offense to a similar statement by his own GP in a now locked thread.

Dave47

Did you ask for a referral to psych? They're the only people in Ireland that can prescribe any meds, and I find it hard to believe a GP would refuse to refer you to one if asked. Say you're depressed as well if that what it takes to get a referral- just look up the textbook symptoms of each- quite simple really

Valmont

Dave47 wrote: »

Say you're depressed as well if that what it takes to get a referral- just look up the textbook symptoms of each- quite simple really

This is quite a profound observation really; one that we all intuitively recognise but fail to appreciate out of deference to the faddish notion that 'mental illnesses are just like physical illnesses'. Objectively and scientifically speaking there is no difference whatsoever between the person in your example above and somebody who is genuinely depressed; this is because our main method of diagnosing mental illnesses is simply accepting what we are told. I am depressed. I hear voices. I have high moods, then low moods. A highly trained psychiatrist or psychologist has no grounds to definitively contradict how a person says they feel; similarly they have no grounds to say this person is genuinely 'sick' either, unless we render the concept of disease so flexible as to be almost meaningless.

Of course your example points to the obvious fact that the mental health system can be thoroughly abused to gain access to drugs or welfare if a person so desires but you would wonder then whether the whole system is in fact encouraging the very syndromes it is supposed to eradicate. I suppose that is a separate argument.

huberto

Due for publication in March: "ADHD Does Not Exist", by Richard Saul. Previewed in the Times recently, and seems interesting.

Valmont

huberto wrote: »

Due for publication in March: "ADHD Does Not Exist", by Richard Saul. Previewed in the Times recently, and seems interesting.

Without having read the book, I'm wondering how he is going to approach the subject. It is very difficult to criticise a mental illness (or the concept in general) without coming across as simply denying someone's problems, feelings or distress.

I would say the behaviours, attitudes, and thoughts which characterise what we call ADHD very much exist but that ADHD as a discrete illness like cancer or diabetes does not exist.

*EDIT* From reading his synopsis this seems to be part of Saul's argument! I think I will definitely buy his book.

Dave47

Valmont wrote: »

This is quite a profound observation really; one that we all intuitively recognise but fail to appreciate out of deference to the faddish notion that 'mental illnesses are just like physical illnesses'. Objectively and scientifically speaking there is no difference whatsoever between the person in your example above and somebody who is genuinely depressed; this is because our main method of diagnosing mental illnesses is simply accepting what we are told. I am depressed. I hear voices. I have high moods, then low moods. A highly trained psychiatrist or psychologist has no grounds to definitively contradict how a person says they feel; similarly they have no grounds to say this person is genuinely 'sick' either, unless we render the concept of disease so flexible as to be almost meaningless.

Of course your example points to the obvious fact that the mental health system can be thoroughly abused to gain access to drugs or welfare if a person so desires but you would wonder then whether the whole system is in fact encouraging the very syndromes it is supposed to eradicate. I suppose that is a separate argument.

Well ultimately it's all going to end up with neurological scans and medication- the results for therapy by itself don't seem all that great. As for diagnoses I've noticed there's an obvious lean towards textbook responses- the psychiatrist has no incentive to deviate from standard practice whatsoever- in fact that's probably the primary reason why severe ADHD is diagnosed in only .5% of patients- a staggeringly small number.

Also the fact strattera is the only drug available for adult sufferers is outrageous and the byproduct of decades of continuous lobbying by big-pharma- theres dozens of non-patent drugs that have the exact same effect if not better- ultimately the system is broken and will remain that way until patient's interests are put further at the top :P

Dave47

Valmont wrote: »

Without having read the book, I'm wondering how he is going to approach the subject. It is very difficult to criticise a mental illness (or the concept in general) without coming across as simply denying someone's problems, feelings or distress.

I would say the behaviours, attitudes, and thoughts which characterise what we call ADHD very much exist but that ADHD as a discrete illness like cancer or diabetes does not exist.

*EDIT* From reading his synopsis this seems to be part of Saul's argument! I think I will definitely buy his book.

If ADHD was not a discrete illness patients would respond FAR less effectively to medication- also fwiw the medication is quite similar to that used to treat illnesses such as psychosis, schizophrenia and alzeimers- dopamine uptake issues are associated with each one of those illnesses.

Also this guy is similar to the climate change deniers- cite a whole bunch of anecdotes and crude records for a laissez-faire argument and you're bound to make some press- serious lack of scientific literature for his claim.

Valmont

Dave47 wrote: »

If ADHD was not a discrete illness patients would respond FAR less effectively to medication

If my sleeplessness responds effectively to medication, does that mean being unable to sleep is a mental illness in and of itself? It could be neurological, it could be stress-related, it could be too much caffeine, it could be anything causing the sleeplessness. Would you therefore say my sleeplessness is a mental illness associated with GABA transmission issues even if I have lots of troubling things on my mind? Of course you wouldn't, but that is your argument for ADHD.

The 'patients' respond to the medication because when you hop anybody up on amphetamines they are going to become more focused, more attentive, and less fidgety; that is what amphetamines do. The 'effectiveness' of the medication doesn't prove anything about the alleged biological pathology of the diverse group of behaviours commonly referred to as ADHD -- it only tells us what we already know about amphetamines.

Dave47 wrote:

- also fwiw the medication is quite similar to that used to treat illnesses such as psychosis, schizophrenia and alzeimers- dopamine uptake issues are associated with each one of those illnesses.

You're all mixed up here. Alzheimer's disease is an actual (biological) disease; the disease is the characteristic plaques and tangles that build up throughout the brain. The cognitive problems associated with Alzheimer's are a result of this physical pathology. Schizophrenia, unlike real (scientifically discovered and objectively identified) illnesses, does not refer to any biological pathology which necessarily causes certain signs and symptoms, but is simply a label that was created for an extremely diverse group of behaviours that couldn't possibly be thought of as representing one condition.

Dave47 wrote:

Also this guy is similar to the climate change deniers- cite a whole bunch of anecdotes and crude records for a laissez-faire argument and you're bound to make some press- serious lack of scientific literature for his claim.

Perhaps you should read the book and process his argument before engaging in the ad hominems. The burden of proof is on those saying that ADHD is a 'real illness'. In order to substantiate this claim it would be nice to see some actual evidence pointing to a strong biological pathology; all we have now is the medicalisation of misbehaviour which is as about as unscientific as you can get.

Dave47

Okay Valmont I should have clarified that the hypothetical basis for ADHD has similarities to the aforementioned disorders/illnesses (I was beginning argument with viewpoint that it exists- my bad)- I absolutely agree that there is not a proven biological basis to the disorder however since certain items such as people having an indicated genetic pre-disposition towards the disorder plus the response to medication (ADHD sufferers seem to respond differently based on what I've read- again not conclusive proof- to my knowledge not many studies supporting either contention- I do know of instances where amphetamines were used on a general group however any ADHD sufferers were not divulged or discussed). As for conclusive evidence of its physical cause obviously that has not been found- there are however numerous indications of it being a biological disease

Where I would probably have agreement with you is ADHD is definitely over-diagnosed in children especially- 70% of children in the US have had their symptoms disappear by adulthood which is obviously indicative of a large degree of misdiagnosis.

I read reviews and a synopsis of the book- he does cite anecdotes to uphold his argument- which might make for a nice read but do not hold up to scientific scrutiny at all - not saying it's a bad book, just saying these kind of left-field works are done all the time- guaranteed a few sales also

edit: as regards stimulant experiments I do know one involving modafinil (prescribed for ADHA sometimes as provigil) in relation to memory- improvements in subjects who had average memory was quite minimal- people with poorer memory responded better- people with impaired dopamine uptake in the pre-frontal cortex respond to stimulants in a different way imo :P

bananatoast

I display all adult add symtoms. I am so nervous about going to the doctor though, years ago I went to the doctor about depression and she said "you don't look depressed." SOUND, thanks Doc! I moved doctors and haven't had issues since but there is a glimmer of fear of being misrepresented as a hypochondriac...

I think it's kinda like OCD eveyone claims to have it so it means real sufferers experience is foo-foo'd as dramatic. "we all have ocd"

So instead of making an appointment I am here.

I don't feel meds would help but a label would. My memory function is embarassing and being able to explain to someone "sorry I didn't take in that clear instruction/information you gave me because i have add not because I am an ignorant assholio that is not paying attention" would give me some social relief.

*panics quietly while suppin' tea*

Is there anyone on here that has been diagnosed and was it scary to attend the doctor? And also hi.

Valmont

bananatoast wrote: »

I don't feel meds would help but a label would

Wouldn't a label just excuse the problems you are experiencing right now rather than help you to fix them? I mean this in the sense that the labeling effect associated with mental illness is generally considered to be a bad thing. Thomas Scheff's book 'Being Mentally Ill' explores this idea in great detail, perhaps it would interest you.

bananatoast

Heya Valmont,

Thanks for reply, personally being labelled has always helped me. Indentifying factors that make up me help me personally.

I'm not looking for an excuse for my problems, definitly not. I am looking for a way to explain certian behaviours that have been a part of me since day one that I find hard to explain to others. Often in employment I would have to work in different ways than others to learn and progress and while I have always got the job done and well I feel being able to explain myself with this particular label would help me express certain difficulties I have and then explain the things I do to overcome them.

Its about opening a dialogue. One where everyone speaks the same language.

Valmont

bananatoast wrote: »

I'm not looking for an excuse for my problems, definitly not. I am looking for a way to explain certian behaviours that have been a part of me since day one that I find hard to explain to others.

Often in employment I would have to work in different ways than others to learn and progress and while I have always got the job done and well I feel being able to explain myself with this particular label would help me express certain difficulties I have and then explain the things I do to overcome them.

Its about opening a dialogue. One where everyone speaks the same language.

Ok I see where you are coming from but I think this is where the stigma and discrimination come into play. The bottom line of explaining an individual in terms of any particular mental illness is that one is admitting that they sometimes have no control over what they do, say, or feel. The theory is that mental illnesses are brain diseases which compel people to experience what we call ADD or schizophrenia. If one openly presents as bipolar or ODD people will assume correctly (if they follow mainstream interpretations of mental illness) that this person in front of me is not in full control of his person, and he may act or experience thoughts over which he has no control. That people are afraid and/or discriminate against the mentally ill on these grounds is, unfortunately, perfectly rational.

I also sometimes wonder whether labels entrench the behaviour they are supposed to help people overcome. As behaviour is often reflexive and habitual it stands to reason that people will sometimes acquire behaviour that causes distress to themselves or others and which will be very difficult for them to overcome. Taking the necessary steps to rub out a bad habit or to slowly alter one's cognition in a positive direction must involve an active recognition of responsibility and individuality; indeed, many of the most successful psychotherapies involve such a process in one way or the other. However, to the extent that one explains certain features of themselves in terms of a putative brain disorder, they absolve themselves of responsibility for that behaviour. It could be responsibility for letting certain actions become engrained habits or it could be responsibility for taking active steps to change and to overcome certain behavioural obstacles. The responsibility is absolved because the 'disease' is now responsible and we can't really blame someone for catching a cold. The problem, as I see it then, is that 'recovering' from a mental illness involves taking absolute responsibility for all of one's actions and seeking help accordingly but the idea of mental illness itself presumes a negation of responsibility. Cutting one's ego off to spite the ID we could say.

I think an example could help clarify my point. Some time ago BBC Radio 4 had Professor Bryan Lask on to discuss anorexia nervosa; specifcally the case of Melanie Spooner, the young doctor who died from heart failure after losing a serious amount of weight from refusing to eat. Bryan Lask adamantly propounds the conventional, stock-and-trade, professional belief about mental illness which I'm sure you've heard before:

Bryan Lask's interview wrote:

And one of the myths that still persists is that people with anorexia choose to go on a diet, choose to remain the way they are, choose to have all these features and that’s just as nonsensical as saying someone with pneumonia chooses to have a fever, to be short of breath, to cough and to be in pain when they breathe - none of that’s a choice and none of what happens in anorexia is a choice. So trying to convince someone with anorexia that they are thin not fat, that they should eat, all those things, it doesn’t work because it’s like trying to tell someone with pneumonia don’t cough, don’t have a fever. Their illness is a very manipulative and controlling illness but they are not manipulative or controlling.

Now for a shocking contradiction which to me typifies any discussion on mental health:

Bryan Lask wrote:

One of the most important types of therapy is motivational therapy, where we work on the patients’ motivation to help them to gradually reverse the balance - the balance is so much in favour of the illness, the pros of the illness, and we try and help them work towards the cons outweighing the pros rather than pros outweighing the cons.

Professor Lask is advocating that patients need to draw up a list of pros and cons and choose to eat or to change, something which he said was impossible in his previous breath. He is saying that with the help of a therapist, people with anorexia need to convince themselves that eating is better than not eating. Indeed, motivationally therapy is all about affirming an individual's ability to choose. Further, by referring to the list of pros and cons, Lask is tacitly admitting that his patients are choosing not to eat. He is saying they have a list of pros and cons and for the moment the pros to not eating outweigh the cons. It is the therapist's job to simply try and change the patient's mind!

Lask, and in fact most mental health practitioners, tell us that one can't choose to engage in certain behaviours which are in fact caused by psychiatric illnesses, but they can choose not to. It cannot be both ways. We are told that negatively valued behaviours are not within the realm of individual responsibility (not eating) but positively valued behaviours (eating) are. This approach simply dehumanises the very people it is supposed to help. Listen to what Robert Spooner, Melanie's father, had to say on the same radio show:

Robert Spooner wrote:

And she didn’t believe in herself totally and she also felt pressured by the university itself. There was one of her supervisors told her she wouldn’t pass and that was the year that she came first. And that was a bit of a nail in a bit of a coffin for Mel because her driven person was even more driven. And part of the dealing with it was self-denial of food, this was where she could - there was a buzz from not eating and she was away from home.

I suppose I just wanted to bring up the existential entanglments involved in a label of mental illness. Responsibility, individuality, absolution, are all tied up in how we explain the way we are. Good luck!

bananatoast

To be honest man, I'm 32. A label isn't going to make ADD worse. It's the way my brain is wired. I think differently and respond diferently than the average joe but I have mastered ways of turning my "problems" or "behaviours" into positive things.

The amount of people who act in a socially retarded way who have no mental illness is shocking.

I overcame the constraints of body dismorphic discorder by being labelled as sufferring from it in my twenties. I would not have discovered cognitive behavioural therapy if I had not been labeled. I am now well with regards to BDD.

My auntie had schizophrenia and if she hadn't been labeled as such she wouldn't have got the treatment she needed.

My depression did not get worse when I identified as being a sufferer, it opened up a world of people who knew my journey and could relate and to this day I am strong because I have connected with people who have walked a mile in my shoes.

Labels help in my opinion. They help me challenge my restrictions and become a better person using the knowledge that I am in control of how I react to my future and they help me to push myself and find ways to power through (or around) difficulties that may arise because of the way my brain works.

I am not a victim and a label would not make me more of one.

IMO

Dave47

banana imo ur right on the money and best of luck with going in for a diagnosis- the experience is a scary one perhaps but will wind up being not all that bad at all

Yes labels are an artificial, somewhat crude construct wrt to mental illnesses however adhd is treatable hence seeking a diagnosis for it is imo a pretty good idea. While the meds require a large degree of improvement there are some exciting developments in the field and in obtaining prescriptions for these will require a label.

bananatoast

Dave47 thanks so much for your clear and helpful advice. I really appreciate it

Dave47

bananatoast wrote: »

Dave47 thanks so much for your clear and helpful advice. I really appreciate it

yeah i u got anything else ask away

was prescribed medication there the other week so hopefully it'll help a bit.

ditsyblonde

Baltrux wrote: »

I suppose my biggest issues are motivation and procrastination, I have been told that "driven to distraction" is one of the best books to learn about it. Does anyone have any experience with the ADHD coaches?

Linda Walker's book 'With Time to Spare:The Ultimate Guide to Peak Performance for Entrepreneurs, Adults with ADHD and Other Geniuses' has a really good chapter on procrastination - it gives some of the reasons why we ADHDers procrastinate and offers tips.

Labarbapostiza

bananatoast wrote: »

I display all adult add symtoms. I am so nervous about going to the doctor though, years ago I went to the doctor about depression and she said "you don't look depressed." SOUND, thanks Doc! I moved doctors and haven't had issues since but there is a glimmer of fear of being misrepresented as a hypochondriac...
.

It's cultural. The general psychiatric consensus in Ireland is that anyone who is presenting claiming adult add, is weedling for a speed prescription, with the purpose of partying.

In the US, adult ADD has exploded, and largely because of young people weedling for legal speed. A gram of street speed, or cocaine can result in a prison sentence, whereas the possession of even several grams of prescribed speed won't. There are close to 7 million prescriptions for speedy drugs currently in the US. College students use their prescriptions for partying.

From what I've read, children with ADD, and adults with ADD, have a paradoxical reaction to amphetamines. Without the amphetamines they behave as if they're on an amphetamine like stimulant, but when they ingest amphetamines, they find themselves calmed.

When it comes to psychiatry, GPs vary greatly in their intuition. If someone is periodically experiencing hyped up agitated states, and at other periods experiencing depression, that would most likely be bi-polar depression than ADD. Bi-polar is much more difficult to manage than mono-polar depression.

slowburner

Labarbapostiza wrote: »

It's cultural. The general psychiatric consensus in Ireland is that anyone who is presenting claiming adult add, is weedling for a speed prescription, with the purpose of partying.

In the US, adult ADD has exploded, and largely because of young people weedling for legal speed. A gram of street speed, or cocaine can result in a prison sentence, whereas the possession of even several grams of prescribed speed won't. There are close to 7 million prescriptions for speedy drugs currently in the US. College students use their prescriptions for partying.

From what I've read, children with ADD, and adults with ADD, have a paradoxical reaction to amphetamines. Without the amphetamines they behave as if they're on an amphetamine like stimulant, but when they ingest amphetamines, they find themselves calmed.

Evidence please.

Labarbapostiza

slowburner wrote: »

Evidence please.

Evidence concerning which specific point?........Or are you just being snotty with me.

Labarbapostiza

slowburner wrote: »

Evidence please.

I may have been wrong about the 7 million prescriptions. The article I'm linking to puts it at 18 million prescriptions of Aderall for 2010.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/high-times/adderall-amphetamine_b_4174297.html

JuliusCaesar

Labarbapostiza wrote: »

It's cultural. The general psychiatric consensus in Ireland is that anyone who is presenting claiming adult add, is weedling for a speed prescription, with the purpose of partying.

slowburner wrote: »

Evidence please.

Labarbapostiza wrote: »

In the US, adult ADD has exploded, and largely because of young people weedling for legal speed. .... College students use their prescriptions for partying.

slowburner wrote: »

Evidence please.

Labarbapostiza wrote: »

If someone is periodically experiencing hyped up agitated states, and at other periods experiencing depression, that would most likely be bi-polar depression than ADD. Bi-polar is much more difficult to manage than mono-polar depression.

What's that got to do with anything?


(Labarbapostiza - everytime you make a statement that you claim is a fact, you have to be able to back it up. That's what the request for evidence is asking.)

Labarbapostiza

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

What's that got to do with anything?


(Labarbapostiza - everytime you make a statement that you claim is a fact, you have to be able to back it up. That's what the request for evidence is asking.)

You know if I was a different kind of person, I might think you were being unnecessarily confrontational. But as luck would have it, I am not that kind of person.

Now....The way you pose your questions may invite a response that sounds condescending and sarcastic. Even though I'm not in the business of condescension or sarcasm.

If you have a specific query, ask a specific question. And please try to formulate it in such a way that it doesn't accidentally come across as sounding rude.

Do you have a specific question or a specific criticism?

slowburner

Psychology is a science and must adhere to a specific set of principles common to all sciences.
One of these principles is that any published assertion must be supported by data, experiment and peer review.
If a published statement or assertion purports to be scientific it must follow scientific standards. Any published statement that does not, is open to devastating criticism and even ridicule.

The article you linked to is unreferenced, opinionated and unscientific. It has no value in supporting your claim.

This thread is about ADD, not bipolar disorders.


Finally, your tone is decidedly arrogant, tiresome and unacceptable.

Labarbapostiza

slowburner wrote: »

The article you linked to is unreferenced, opinionated and unscientific. It has no value in supporting your claim.

I have read over this thread, and I have seen many extraordinary claims made by posters (and absolutely incorrect claims), with no demand that they provide references or citations. It seems the exception is only applied to my comments. You can check the thread yourself, you'll see I'm not imagining things.

This thread is about ADD, not bipolar disorders.

There is great difficulty in achieving correct clinical diagnoses. People can go for years with the wrong diagnosis, and wrong medications. Difficulty in concentrating and regulating emotions, plus depression and anxiety, can be the symptoms of a variety of distinctly different conditions. In the manic phase of bipolar, the person will have difficulty concentrating and regulating their emotions, and similarly in the depressive phase. But they're likely to only report the depressive phase as problematic to their doctors, which can lead to prescriptions that exacerbate the manic phase.

A person with a personality disorder may only seek help for their depression; their other behaviours which are pathological may seem completely rational and justified. For example, a person with BPD, or NPD, will tend to have a distressing sense of inferiority. If they perceive someone in the external world to be superior to them, they experience this as an attack. To which they launch a counterattack. And because the cycle of distress then attack, gives them relief, makes them feel good, they feel it's rational and justified. In their mind the innocent person they have attacked, is guilty, and has goaded them into attacking. But all that will remain hidden in a short consultation with a GP.

Valmont

I would like to point out that the medical treatment for attention disorders is, as a matter of fact, speed. Couple this with another fact: that the diagnosis of ADD and ADHD has risen sharply (the same is true for the UK but I have not seen figures from Ireland) over the past ten to fifteen years.

We have ballooning diagnoses of an alleged medical condition whose objective neurological existence cannot be demonstrated in any person said to be 'suffering' from it. This means there is no way to know that any diagnostic methods used are valid. We are in a situation where childhood misbehaviour is being medicalised and the children are being prescribed speed as a solution. While Labarbapostiza was off the mark, the reality is still bafflingly ludicrious.

Dave47

Valmont wrote: »

I would like to point out that the medical treatment for attention disorders is, as a matter of fact, speed. Couple this with another fact: that the diagnosis of ADD and ADHD has risen sharply (the same is true for the UK but I have not seen figures from Ireland) over the past ten to fifteen years.

We have ballooning diagnoses of an alleged medical condition whose objective neurological existence cannot be demonstrated in any person said to be 'suffering' from it. This means there is no way to know that any diagnostic methods used are valid. We are in a situation where childhood misbehaviour is being medicalised and the children are being prescribed speed as a solution. While Labarbapostiza was off the mark, the reality is still bafflingly ludicrious.

"Hi, I've looked for threads on adhd but there doesn't seen to be anything recent, Is there anyone that has experience with adult adhd, I have recently been diagnosed and am not sure where to go from here!"

As a reminder this is how the thread started and now look what it's turned into. People are advancing the same disproven arguments consistently. You guys don't realise how offensive and hurtful it is to be spouting the same disproven arguments. Thread should be deleted at this point. I'd advise anyone suffering from ADHD and has questions to bring them to r/ADHD on reddit. I recognise people can say whatever they want on ADHD but this thread started as an attempt at a helpful resource.

"I would like to point out that the medical treatment for attention disorders is, as a matter of fact, speed."

I mean this part is so incorrect it's pointless to respond. $200 million in sales of Strattera for 2013 alone in the US and this is the statement you make? You consistently lose all credibility by the first sentence lmao.

Valmont

Incorrect? The 200 million spent on Atomoxetine pales in comparison to the 2 BILLION spent on Methyphenidate (that's speed to you and me). Look at facts please before you start deriding other posters.

Dave47

Valmont wrote: »

Incorrect? The 200 million spent on Atomoxetine pales in comparison to the 2 BILLION spent on Methyphenidate (that's speed to you and me). Look at facts please before you start deriding other posters.

I'm so done with the thread lol. Speed is a methamphetamine, completely different chemical structure- keep spouting away though, the level of ignorance is entertaining at this point.

Valmont

Dave47 wrote: »

I'm so done with the thread lol. Speed is a methamphetamine, completely different chemical structure- keep spouting away though, the level of ignorance is entertaining at this point.

Speed is an amphetamine, not a metamphetamine. Amphetamines are part of the phenethylamine class of drugs which are CNS stimulators, regardless of their individual chemical structures. I'll leave it to you to figure out what class of drugs methylphenidate belongs to.:) (Meth is also a phenethylamine).

Dave47

Valmont wrote: »

Speed is an amphetamine, not a metamphetamine. Amphetamines are part of the phenethylamine class of drugs which are CNS stimulators, regardless of their individual chemical structures. I'll leave it to you to figure out what class of drugs methylphenidate belongs to.:) (Meth is also a phenethylamine).

"Speed (methamphetamine, C10H15N) is a potent and addictive central nervous system stimulant, chemically related to amphetamine, but with greater central nervous system side effects. It is a white, odorless, bitter-tasting powder that easily dissolves in water or alcohol."

From drugs.com

Methylphenidate meanwhile is a piperidine

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piperidine

Amphetamine is a vastly misused word so I see where you're coming from, but equating speed to methylphenidate is enormously flawed.

Valmont

Dave47 wrote:

Methylphenidate meanwhile is a piperidine

This is like saying that a lion is not an apex predator, it is a large cat. You cannot try to deny basic chemistry by claiming that methylphenidate is not a stimulant of the same class as speed or meth. And just before you try any more distraction techniques I can tell you that methylphenidate is also a carboxylate ester, methyl ester, nootropic, norepinephrine-dopamine reuptake inhibitor, sympathomimetic amine, euphoriant, and a vasoconstrictor.

Ultimately, your missing the point here, Dave, in some sort of effort to deny that children alleged to have ADHD are given potent CNS stimulators that don't differ all that much from street drugs. Speed, Methamphetamine, amphetamine, and methylphenidate are all phenethylamines - CNS stimulators. Given that methylphenidate is the highest selling ADHD 'treatment', it is not incorrect to say that people are given speed as a treatment - indeed it is precisely the focusing effects of speed and other amphetamines that methylphenidate producers sought to purify during the numerous animal studies which proved that rats on amphetamines solve mazes faster. Hey presto, hyperactive children focus more too.

Valmont

I have the smoking gun to put this to rest once and for all:

From Methylphenidate Abuse and Psychiatric Side-Effects:

Morton & Stockton J Clin Psychiatry, 2000 wrote:

A well-known pharmacology text states that the pharmacologic properties of methylphenidate “are essentially the same as those of the amphetamines.”30(p221) Another reference states that “the pharmacologic actions of methylphenidate are qualitatively similar to the amphetamines,”16(p2038) while another describes methylphenidate as “a mild CNS stimulant with actions similar to the amphetamines.”15(p773) These same texts also warn of an abuse potential similar to that of the amphetamines,30 as well as the potential overuse and abuse of methylphenidate, especially in patients with “a history of drug dependence or alcoholism.”15(p773),16(p2040) This warning is also clearly stated in the product information statement.9 These brief reminders of the abuse potential of methylphenidate may need stronger emphasis to sensitize practitioners to the high risk of abuse in certain patient populations.

Also from the University of Utah Health Sciences Centre:

University of Utah - Genetic Science Centre wrote:

Like cocaine, Ritalin is a powerful stimulant that increases alertness and productivity. Ritalin and cocaine also look and act very much alike. They have a similar chemical structure, and both increase dopamine levels in the brain. They do this by blocking a dopamine transporter protein, which normally takes up dopamine from the synapse.

ADHD children are typically taken off of Ritalin when they reach adulthood. Interestingly, these individuals seem to be more prone to cocaine addiction. Why is that? Because Ritalin and cocaine are similar drugs, it's possible that ADHD adults are unknowingly using cocaine as a replacement for Ritalin. In other words, it may be an attempt to self-medicate. Cocaine may help individuals with ADHD focus and feel calm and in control.

Dave47

Caffeine is also a potent CNS stimulant. Ultimately I'd just say I take concerta, I'm quite happy with it, and when the 18 hour release methylphenidate (name one street drug that has an 18 hour release mechanism) being trialled in the US comes here I'll be happier again. It's certainly not wrong to say it's very similar to cocaine or meth etc. all I'd be saying is that it was FDA approved for treating the disorder and indications are that it helps people far more than therapy or any other treatment. Stimulants have been used in medicine since at least the 1950's, equating them to street drugs is ridiculous. Ideally, yes ADHD sufferers would not have to take stimulants but it seems like they will be the primary medication until well into the 2020's, based on what is currently being developed.

Also I would say I take 18mg of concerta a day- if I took equivalent street drug doses of it yes it would cause long-term brain damage. There's no debate it is neurotoxic in certain doses, but 18mg is a therapeutic dose. Same goes for amphetamines being used to treat it. Also adhd drug abuse is far, far more unlikely today due to their design.

As a final point it is worth noting that several studies this year suggest that methylphenidate actually reverses some of the permanent damage caused by adhd and this could be one of the reasons why it seems to increase IQ scores slightly in sufferers

Labarbapostiza

I think this little discussion of what speed is and isn't, is more than a little pointless. Speed is just a street name for stimulants, which can vary a lot in their composition. Users and dealers are not particular, as long as the stuff does the trick.

Valmont wrote: »

ADHD children are typically taken off of Ritalin when they reach adulthood.
Interestingly, these individuals seem to be more prone to cocaine addiction. Why
is that? Because Ritalin and cocaine are similar drugs, it's possible that ADHD
adults are unknowingly using cocaine as a replacement for Ritalin. In other
words, it may be an attempt to self-medicate. Cocaine may help individuals with
ADHD focus and feel calm and in control.:

This is interesting though. People with ADHD have a paradoxical response to stimulants. Cocaine does not make the average person feel calm and in control, neither does it make them focussed. It makes them agitated, hyped up and ready to party. It makes them hyper active. And the more you take the less calm and focussed you become. And prolonged use will lead to psychosis.

With ADHD, it could be that extra dopamine is needed to keep up with the level of the other brain chemicals. Like Oliver Sack's first used l-dopa to treat Encephalitis lethargica (I'm sure you've seen the film Awakenings). It worked at first, then the patients began to exhibit amphetamine like psychosis, and the L-dopa lost its' magic. Much later on it was realised that it wasn't that the dopamine levels were too low in the patients, but that the rest of their brain chemistry was too high. So now paradoxically a sleeping pill, like Ambien, is used to treat Encephalitis lethargica.


Two paradoxes

Give a stimulant to someone with ADHD, and they calm down.

For someone with the sleeping sickness; Encephalitis lethargica, give them a sleeping pill and they wake up.

Valmont

Labarbapostiza wrote: »

Give a stimulant to someone with ADHD, and they calm down.

If I recall correctly the stimulant increases activity in an area of the brain that controls attention which is allegedly under-active in hyperactive people. I say allegedly because no pathophysiological disease process has been conclusively identified and there are other drugs which work through different biological mechanisms and also have a therapeutic effect.

Labarbapostiza

Valmont wrote: »

If I recall correctly the stimulant increases activity in an area of the brain that controls attention which is allegedly under-active in hyperactive people.

Think of the levels of stimulation as three states. Under-stimulated; excessive sleepiness, inability to concentrate. Stimulated; wakefulness, calmness, able to concentrate. Over-stimulated; inability to concentrate, restlessness, easily distracted, poor judgement.

Give an amphetamine to an under-stimulated person, they will wake up; become stimulated. Give an amphetamine to an over-stimulated person, typically, they'll go nuts. Kids with ADHD have an untypical reaction to amphetamines.

The brain chemistry has to work in concert. Sometimes targeting one area will work. Modafinil is a stimulant, and it's used to treat narcolepsy. But paradoxically, Encephalitis lethargica, is treated with a sleeping pill, Ambien. We may have drugs we call stimulants, but the whole mechanism of stimulation, isn't simply the activity of one monoamine.

I say allegedly because no pathophysiological disease process has been conclusively identified and there are other drugs which work through different biological mechanisms and also have a therapeutic effect.

The simple answer is there is not enough known. Diseases like Parkinsons and Encephalitis lethargica are obviously pathological. And there was a ready supply of Parkinson brains for post mortem examination. (procuring brains of children with ADHD would be considered unethical). But there isn't a statistically normal brain to measure, to measure an abnormal or dysfunctional brain against. At least to the degree that you could get a definitive rock solid diagnosis of a condition like ADHD.

In the 60s, no one knew why Sack's patients were immobilised. Had the virus effected a different part of the brain, maybe they could have become hyperactive, instead of hypoactive. In that instance, would it have been said there was nothing wrong with them as they were not hospitalised.

Dave47

Nice post man. I would also point out that inattention disorders are not exclusive to those with adhd- people with ASD have them as well and stimulants are actually used there too (albeit more rarely).

The primary neurochemical involved with concentration and attention is dopamine/nor-epinephrine levels in the pre-frontal cortex. ADHD sufferers seem to produce less of this and the stimulants increase those levels. As you say though, too much of an increase can cause anxiety/psychosis/schizophrenia etc.

We won't have a rock solid understanding of ADHD for another few decades- how genes lead to the disorder, how the brain develops incorrectly... the co-morbidity between different disorders... Based on very recent data in fact it now looks like ADHD is describing potentially 20 or so different disorders which are different. There are currently about 5 or 6 different types atm that's only going to increase. I myself am more ADHD-PI so don't get the hyperactivity so much.

cannex

TO all the naysayers and sceptics who have not done any proper research, except reading tabloid style pieces about ADHD.......

Diagnosed as an adult at 35 years old It is VERY VERY REAL.
My life had been very difficult because of it.

IT is underdiagnosed actually, especially in females.
The issue is with medication be over prescribed, not over diagnosis.

Do some research and do not speak about something you know nothing about.
Prescribing drugs to children is the easy way out because long, drawn out psychoeducational help and occupational therapy is better, more helpful but also very expensive for the the HSE to fund.
That is why people are medicated, IT helps but it is not the be all and end all.

cannex

We have ballooning diagnoses of an alleged medical condition whose objective neurological existence cannot be demonstrated in any person said to be 'suffering' from it.

Did you read this from the mirror? Or was it the daily mail?
There is a rise in diagnosis because adults and females are more recognised.

Why did you put suffering in quotations??????????
GO F yourself?
TO be suffering has a major impact in ALL aspects of life. The generalized descriptions are used in hack job newspaper reports and it is the same rehtoric spouted by the same fools over and over again who pretend to know what they are talking about yet have no basis of experience or have never read a single medical paper or spoken to a person whos life is severely impacted by this neurological disorder.

SO sick of this.
YOu do not know what you are talking about.

Dr Bob

Hi ,
if you're replying to an earlier post , its worth clicking the 'reply' button underneath (otherwise its hard to work out who its a reply to).Also that post is over two years old .
I'm 40 was diagnosed a few years back *, (and managed to get my life and career back on course once I had been)and have to say the medication helps a hell of a lot focus wise , but quite often people have different reactios to it.


(* was diagnosed as a kid , but back then in Ireland there wasnt much treatment other than 'lay off the sugar and misbahave and you'll get a smack")

cannex

I just got very angry reading this.
I had to lose the quotations as they contained some url and as i am not a regular poster I couldnt reply with a link in my post.

Hi though, nice to see another diagnosed adult, some one who actually understands (maybe) how infuriating it is to come across such ignorant rehtoric.

Even though this thread is old, I hope that some one who comes across this thread will see that there are adults who are struggling, looking for advice and that to come across this rubbish causes shame and not going to their GP for help.


The medication has helped me massively along with occupational therapy.
I am a year into diagnosis and my life had improved some what.


My blood boiled reading that spouted nonsesense.

Nice to meet you!

I am going to create a new thread aimed specifically at helping adults who are newly diagnosed and/or looking for advice on getting a diagnosis.

Dr Bob

cannex wrote: »

I just got very angry reading this.
I had to lose the quotations as they contained some url and as i am not a regular poster I couldnt reply with a link in my post.

Hi though, nice to see another diagnosed adult, some one who actually understands (maybe) how infuriating it is to come across such ignorant rehtoric.

Even though this thread is old, I hope that some one who comes across this thread will see that there are adults who are struggling, looking for advice and that to come across this rubbish causes shame and not going to their GP for help.


The medication has helped me massively along with occupational therapy.
I am a year into diagnosis and my life had improved some what.


My blood boiled reading that spouted nonsesense.

Nice to meet you!

I am going to create a new thread aimed specifically at helping adults who are newly diagnosed and/or looking for advice on getting a diagnosis.

...no worries , to be honest when I need to raise a bit of rightous anger I look for one of the 'oh its just bold kids, a smack will sort them out ' and the 'Its all a lie by Big Pharma!!" threads, and I'm furious within a minute
Meds help me , also if you're lucky you can get into working in an area that you love , and you can give it 250% , and hyperfocus on it, which is what I'm trying to do myself .
A thread is a great idea , but you need to double check that its not breaking any forum rules , (*especially with diagnosing or reccomending drugs...basically dont),

cannex

Just getting a handle on time management and routine for now and working towards managing outbursts and frustrations in the workplace, does not make me a popular co-worker. Was advised by the occupational therapist to not work in the previous career (restaurant kitchens - Have a lot of sensory issues too) so trying to gain experience and work toward my real love - video, multimedia, creative stuff.

Just created that noew thread called Adult ADHD Advice, follow if you feel inclined and maybe you can pop in every now and again and give advice to some poor soul who is probably at the end of their tether.

Cool wont be diagnosing or recommending drugs just support and someone to say its real and I believe you and this is where you can go from here etc...