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Adult ADHD

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  • slowburner wrote: »
    The article you linked to is unreferenced, opinionated and unscientific. It has no value in supporting your claim.

    I have read over this thread, and I have seen many extraordinary claims made by posters (and absolutely incorrect claims), with no demand that they provide references or citations. It seems the exception is only applied to my comments. You can check the thread yourself, you'll see I'm not imagining things.

    This thread is about ADD, not bipolar disorders.

    There is great difficulty in achieving correct clinical diagnoses. People can go for years with the wrong diagnosis, and wrong medications. Difficulty in concentrating and regulating emotions, plus depression and anxiety, can be the symptoms of a variety of distinctly different conditions. In the manic phase of bipolar, the person will have difficulty concentrating and regulating their emotions, and similarly in the depressive phase. But they're likely to only report the depressive phase as problematic to their doctors, which can lead to prescriptions that exacerbate the manic phase.

    A person with a personality disorder may only seek help for their depression; their other behaviours which are pathological may seem completely rational and justified. For example, a person with BPD, or NPD, will tend to have a distressing sense of inferiority. If they perceive someone in the external world to be superior to them, they experience this as an attack. To which they launch a counterattack. And because the cycle of distress then attack, gives them relief, makes them feel good, they feel it's rational and justified. In their mind the innocent person they have attacked, is guilty, and has goaded them into attacking. But all that will remain hidden in a short consultation with a GP.




  • I would like to point out that the medical treatment for attention disorders is, as a matter of fact, speed. Couple this with another fact: that the diagnosis of ADD and ADHD has risen sharply (the same is true for the UK but I have not seen figures from Ireland) over the past ten to fifteen years.

    We have ballooning diagnoses of an alleged medical condition whose objective neurological existence cannot be demonstrated in any person said to be 'suffering' from it. This means there is no way to know that any diagnostic methods used are valid. We are in a situation where childhood misbehaviour is being medicalised and the children are being prescribed speed as a solution. While Labarbapostiza was off the mark, the reality is still bafflingly ludicrious.




  • Valmont wrote: »
    I would like to point out that the medical treatment for attention disorders is, as a matter of fact, speed. Couple this with another fact: that the diagnosis of ADD and ADHD has risen sharply (the same is true for the UK but I have not seen figures from Ireland) over the past ten to fifteen years.

    We have ballooning diagnoses of an alleged medical condition whose objective neurological existence cannot be demonstrated in any person said to be 'suffering' from it. This means there is no way to know that any diagnostic methods used are valid. We are in a situation where childhood misbehaviour is being medicalised and the children are being prescribed speed as a solution. While Labarbapostiza was off the mark, the reality is still bafflingly ludicrious.

    "Hi, I've looked for threads on adhd but there doesn't seen to be anything recent, Is there anyone that has experience with adult adhd, I have recently been diagnosed and am not sure where to go from here!"

    As a reminder this is how the thread started and now look what it's turned into. People are advancing the same disproven arguments consistently. You guys don't realise how offensive and hurtful it is to be spouting the same disproven arguments. Thread should be deleted at this point. I'd advise anyone suffering from ADHD and has questions to bring them to r/ADHD on reddit. I recognise people can say whatever they want on ADHD but this thread started as an attempt at a helpful resource.

    "I would like to point out that the medical treatment for attention disorders is, as a matter of fact, speed."

    I mean this part is so incorrect it's pointless to respond. $200 million in sales of Strattera for 2013 alone in the US and this is the statement you make? You consistently lose all credibility by the first sentence lmao.




  • Incorrect? The 200 million spent on Atomoxetine pales in comparison to the 2 BILLION spent on Methyphenidate (that's speed to you and me). Look at facts please before you start deriding other posters.




  • Valmont wrote: »
    Incorrect? The 200 million spent on Atomoxetine pales in comparison to the 2 BILLION spent on Methyphenidate (that's speed to you and me). Look at facts please before you start deriding other posters.

    I'm so done with the thread lol. Speed is a methamphetamine, completely different chemical structure- keep spouting away though, the level of ignorance is entertaining at this point.


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  • Dave47 wrote: »
    I'm so done with the thread lol. Speed is a methamphetamine, completely different chemical structure- keep spouting away though, the level of ignorance is entertaining at this point.
    Speed is an amphetamine, not a metamphetamine. Amphetamines are part of the phenethylamine class of drugs which are CNS stimulators, regardless of their individual chemical structures. I'll leave it to you to figure out what class of drugs methylphenidate belongs to.:) (Meth is also a phenethylamine).




  • Valmont wrote: »
    Speed is an amphetamine, not a metamphetamine. Amphetamines are part of the phenethylamine class of drugs which are CNS stimulators, regardless of their individual chemical structures. I'll leave it to you to figure out what class of drugs methylphenidate belongs to.:) (Meth is also a phenethylamine).

    "Speed (methamphetamine, C10H15N) is a potent and addictive central nervous system stimulant, chemically related to amphetamine, but with greater central nervous system side effects. It is a white, odorless, bitter-tasting powder that easily dissolves in water or alcohol."

    From drugs.com

    Methylphenidate meanwhile is a piperidine

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piperidine

    Amphetamine is a vastly misused word so I see where you're coming from, but equating speed to methylphenidate is enormously flawed.




  • Dave47 wrote:
    Methylphenidate meanwhile is a piperidine
    This is like saying that a lion is not an apex predator, it is a large cat. You cannot try to deny basic chemistry by claiming that methylphenidate is not a stimulant of the same class as speed or meth. And just before you try any more distraction techniques I can tell you that methylphenidate is also a carboxylate ester, methyl ester, nootropic, norepinephrine-dopamine reuptake inhibitor, sympathomimetic amine, euphoriant, and a vasoconstrictor.

    Ultimately, your missing the point here, Dave, in some sort of effort to deny that children alleged to have ADHD are given potent CNS stimulators that don't differ all that much from street drugs. Speed, Methamphetamine, amphetamine, and methylphenidate are all phenethylamines - CNS stimulators. Given that methylphenidate is the highest selling ADHD 'treatment', it is not incorrect to say that people are given speed as a treatment - indeed it is precisely the focusing effects of speed and other amphetamines that methylphenidate producers sought to purify during the numerous animal studies which proved that rats on amphetamines solve mazes faster. Hey presto, hyperactive children focus more too.




  • I have the smoking gun to put this to rest once and for all:

    From Methylphenidate Abuse and Psychiatric Side-Effects:
    A well-known pharmacology text states that the pharmacologic properties of methylphenidate “are essentially the same as those of the amphetamines.”30(p221) Another reference states that “the pharmacologic actions of methylphenidate are qualitatively similar to the amphetamines,”16(p2038) while another describes methylphenidate as “a mild CNS stimulant with actions similar to the amphetamines.”15(p773) These same texts also warn of an abuse potential similar to that of the amphetamines,30 as well as the potential overuse and abuse of methylphenidate, especially in patients with “a history of drug dependence or alcoholism.”15(p773),16(p2040) This warning is also clearly stated in the product information statement.9 These brief reminders of the abuse potential of methylphenidate may need stronger emphasis to sensitize practitioners to the high risk of abuse in certain patient populations.

    Also from the University of Utah Health Sciences Centre:
    Like cocaine, Ritalin is a powerful stimulant that increases alertness and productivity. Ritalin and cocaine also look and act very much alike. They have a similar chemical structure, and both increase dopamine levels in the brain. They do this by blocking a dopamine transporter protein, which normally takes up dopamine from the synapse.

    ADHD children are typically taken off of Ritalin when they reach adulthood. Interestingly, these individuals seem to be more prone to cocaine addiction. Why is that? Because Ritalin and cocaine are similar drugs, it's possible that ADHD adults are unknowingly using cocaine as a replacement for Ritalin. In other words, it may be an attempt to self-medicate. Cocaine may help individuals with ADHD focus and feel calm and in control.




  • Caffeine is also a potent CNS stimulant. Ultimately I'd just say I take concerta, I'm quite happy with it, and when the 18 hour release methylphenidate (name one street drug that has an 18 hour release mechanism) being trialled in the US comes here I'll be happier again. It's certainly not wrong to say it's very similar to cocaine or meth etc. all I'd be saying is that it was FDA approved for treating the disorder and indications are that it helps people far more than therapy or any other treatment. Stimulants have been used in medicine since at least the 1950's, equating them to street drugs is ridiculous. Ideally, yes ADHD sufferers would not have to take stimulants but it seems like they will be the primary medication until well into the 2020's, based on what is currently being developed.

    Also I would say I take 18mg of concerta a day- if I took equivalent street drug doses of it yes it would cause long-term brain damage. There's no debate it is neurotoxic in certain doses, but 18mg is a therapeutic dose. Same goes for amphetamines being used to treat it. Also adhd drug abuse is far, far more unlikely today due to their design.

    As a final point it is worth noting that several studies this year suggest that methylphenidate actually reverses some of the permanent damage caused by adhd and this could be one of the reasons why it seems to increase IQ scores slightly in sufferers


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  • I think this little discussion of what speed is and isn't, is more than a little pointless. Speed is just a street name for stimulants, which can vary a lot in their composition. Users and dealers are not particular, as long as the stuff does the trick.

    Valmont wrote: »
    ADHD children are typically taken off of Ritalin when they reach adulthood.
    Interestingly, these individuals seem to be more prone to cocaine addiction. Why
    is that? Because Ritalin and cocaine are similar drugs, it's possible that ADHD
    adults are unknowingly using cocaine as a replacement for Ritalin. In other
    words, it may be an attempt to self-medicate. Cocaine may help individuals with
    ADHD focus and feel calm and in control.:

    This is interesting though. People with ADHD have a paradoxical response to stimulants. Cocaine does not make the average person feel calm and in control, neither does it make them focussed. It makes them agitated, hyped up and ready to party. It makes them hyper active. And the more you take the less calm and focussed you become. And prolonged use will lead to psychosis.

    With ADHD, it could be that extra dopamine is needed to keep up with the level of the other brain chemicals. Like Oliver Sack's first used l-dopa to treat Encephalitis lethargica (I'm sure you've seen the film Awakenings). It worked at first, then the patients began to exhibit amphetamine like psychosis, and the L-dopa lost its' magic. Much later on it was realised that it wasn't that the dopamine levels were too low in the patients, but that the rest of their brain chemistry was too high. So now paradoxically a sleeping pill, like Ambien, is used to treat Encephalitis lethargica.


    Two paradoxes

    Give a stimulant to someone with ADHD, and they calm down.

    For someone with the sleeping sickness; Encephalitis lethargica, give them a sleeping pill and they wake up.




  • Give a stimulant to someone with ADHD, and they calm down.
    If I recall correctly the stimulant increases activity in an area of the brain that controls attention which is allegedly under-active in hyperactive people. I say allegedly because no pathophysiological disease process has been conclusively identified and there are other drugs which work through different biological mechanisms and also have a therapeutic effect.




  • Valmont wrote: »
    If I recall correctly the stimulant increases activity in an area of the brain that controls attention which is allegedly under-active in hyperactive people.

    Think of the levels of stimulation as three states. Under-stimulated; excessive sleepiness, inability to concentrate. Stimulated; wakefulness, calmness, able to concentrate. Over-stimulated; inability to concentrate, restlessness, easily distracted, poor judgement.

    Give an amphetamine to an under-stimulated person, they will wake up; become stimulated. Give an amphetamine to an over-stimulated person, typically, they'll go nuts. Kids with ADHD have an untypical reaction to amphetamines.

    The brain chemistry has to work in concert. Sometimes targeting one area will work. Modafinil is a stimulant, and it's used to treat narcolepsy. But paradoxically, Encephalitis lethargica, is treated with a sleeping pill, Ambien. We may have drugs we call stimulants, but the whole mechanism of stimulation, isn't simply the activity of one monoamine.
    I say allegedly because no pathophysiological disease process has been conclusively identified and there are other drugs which work through different biological mechanisms and also have a therapeutic effect.

    The simple answer is there is not enough known. Diseases like Parkinsons and Encephalitis lethargica are obviously pathological. And there was a ready supply of Parkinson brains for post mortem examination. (procuring brains of children with ADHD would be considered unethical). But there isn't a statistically normal brain to measure, to measure an abnormal or dysfunctional brain against. At least to the degree that you could get a definitive rock solid diagnosis of a condition like ADHD.

    In the 60s, no one knew why Sack's patients were immobilised. Had the virus effected a different part of the brain, maybe they could have become hyperactive, instead of hypoactive. In that instance, would it have been said there was nothing wrong with them as they were not hospitalised.




  • Nice post man. I would also point out that inattention disorders are not exclusive to those with adhd- people with ASD have them as well and stimulants are actually used there too (albeit more rarely).

    The primary neurochemical involved with concentration and attention is dopamine/nor-epinephrine levels in the pre-frontal cortex. ADHD sufferers seem to produce less of this and the stimulants increase those levels. As you say though, too much of an increase can cause anxiety/psychosis/schizophrenia etc.

    We won't have a rock solid understanding of ADHD for another few decades- how genes lead to the disorder, how the brain develops incorrectly... the co-morbidity between different disorders... Based on very recent data in fact it now looks like ADHD is describing potentially 20 or so different disorders which are different. There are currently about 5 or 6 different types atm that's only going to increase. I myself am more ADHD-PI so don't get the hyperactivity so much.




  • TO all the naysayers and sceptics who have not done any proper research, except reading tabloid style pieces about ADHD.......

    Diagnosed as an adult at 35 years old It is VERY VERY REAL.
    My life had been very difficult because of it.

    IT is underdiagnosed actually, especially in females.
    The issue is with medication be over prescribed, not over diagnosis.

    Do some research and do not speak about something you know nothing about.
    Prescribing drugs to children is the easy way out because long, drawn out psychoeducational help and occupational therapy is better, more helpful but also very expensive for the the HSE to fund.
    That is why people are medicated, IT helps but it is not the be all and end all.




  • We have ballooning diagnoses of an alleged medical condition whose objective neurological existence cannot be demonstrated in any person said to be 'suffering' from it.

    Did you read this from the mirror? Or was it the daily mail?
    There is a rise in diagnosis because adults and females are more recognised.

    Why did you put suffering in quotations??????????
    GO F yourself?
    TO be suffering has a major impact in ALL aspects of life. The generalized descriptions are used in hack job newspaper reports and it is the same rehtoric spouted by the same fools over and over again who pretend to know what they are talking about yet have no basis of experience or have never read a single medical paper or spoken to a person whos life is severely impacted by this neurological disorder.

    SO sick of this.
    YOu do not know what you are talking about.




  • Hi ,
    if you're replying to an earlier post , its worth clicking the 'reply' button underneath (otherwise its hard to work out who its a reply to).Also that post is over two years old .
    I'm 40 was diagnosed a few years back *, (and managed to get my life and career back on course once I had been)and have to say the medication helps a hell of a lot focus wise , but quite often people have different reactios to it.


    (* was diagnosed as a kid , but back then in Ireland there wasnt much treatment other than 'lay off the sugar and misbahave and you'll get a smack")




  • I just got very angry reading this.
    I had to lose the quotations as they contained some url and as i am not a regular poster I couldnt reply with a link in my post.

    Hi though, nice to see another diagnosed adult, some one who actually understands (maybe) how infuriating it is to come across such ignorant rehtoric.

    Even though this thread is old, I hope that some one who comes across this thread will see that there are adults who are struggling, looking for advice and that to come across this rubbish causes shame and not going to their GP for help.


    The medication has helped me massively along with occupational therapy.
    I am a year into diagnosis and my life had improved some what.


    My blood boiled reading that spouted nonsesense.

    Nice to meet you!

    I am going to create a new thread aimed specifically at helping adults who are newly diagnosed and/or looking for advice on getting a diagnosis.




  • cannex wrote: »
    I just got very angry reading this.
    I had to lose the quotations as they contained some url and as i am not a regular poster I couldnt reply with a link in my post.

    Hi though, nice to see another diagnosed adult, some one who actually understands (maybe) how infuriating it is to come across such ignorant rehtoric.

    Even though this thread is old, I hope that some one who comes across this thread will see that there are adults who are struggling, looking for advice and that to come across this rubbish causes shame and not going to their GP for help.


    The medication has helped me massively along with occupational therapy.
    I am a year into diagnosis and my life had improved some what.


    My blood boiled reading that spouted nonsesense.

    Nice to meet you!

    I am going to create a new thread aimed specifically at helping adults who are newly diagnosed and/or looking for advice on getting a diagnosis.

    ...no worries , to be honest when I need to raise a bit of rightous anger I look for one of the 'oh its just bold kids, a smack will sort them out ' and the 'Its all a lie by Big Pharma!!" threads, and I'm furious within a minute ;)
    Meds help me , also if you're lucky you can get into working in an area that you love , and you can give it 250% , and hyperfocus on it, which is what I'm trying to do myself ;) .
    A thread is a great idea , but you need to double check that its not breaking any forum rules , (*especially with diagnosing or reccomending drugs...basically dont),




  • Just getting a handle on time management and routine for now and working towards managing outbursts and frustrations in the workplace, does not make me a popular co-worker. Was advised by the occupational therapist to not work in the previous career (restaurant kitchens - Have a lot of sensory issues too) so trying to gain experience and work toward my real love - video, multimedia, creative stuff.

    Just created that noew thread called Adult ADHD Advice, follow if you feel inclined and maybe you can pop in every now and again and give advice to some poor soul who is probably at the end of their tether. :)

    Cool wont be diagnosing or recommending drugs just support and someone to say its real and I believe you and this is where you can go from here etc...


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  • cannex wrote: »
    Just created that noew thread called Adult ADHD Advice, follow if you feel inclined and maybe you can pop in every now and again and give advice to some poor soul who is probably at the end of their tether. :)

    Cool wont be diagnosing or recommending drugs just support and someone to say its real and I believe you and this is where you can go from here etc...

    That thread has been moved to Long Term Illness forum.




  • cannex wrote: »
    We have ballooning diagnoses of an alleged medical condition whose objective neurological existence cannot be demonstrated in any person said to be 'suffering' from it.

    Oh please. This 'objective neurological existence cannot not be proved' nonsense. This claim has been made for everything from schizophrenia to bi-polar disorder. And it is in fact rubbish. It is not a scientific claim. But there is a social basis to the claim; the denial of the reality of psychiatric conditions being very popular among a certain kind of right-wing bullying blowhard; "They're just putting it on..what they need is fresh air and a kick up the arse...a kick up the arse". Funnily enough, the people most in need of a solid kick up the arse.

    When the medical profession began using the term bi-polar instead of manic-depression, the blowhard media had a slew of "It's just fashion nonsense...all they need is a..etc" articles.

    There's no doubt there are people who like to give themselves a fashionable ailment, gluten intolerance being quite fashionable of the moment, even though gluten isn't a thing (it's just a particular consistency of salt, water, yeast and flour, in dough for bread making...it's not a protein, it has no chemical properties that make it any different from any of its' components....it's simple your dough neither being too wet, or too dry, for forming a good loaf........And since it doesn't exist, brass necked manufacturers of everything from jelly babies to gravy powder, can make claims their product is gluten free).

    If you really have bi-polar, you may go your whole life without a diagnosis, but those around you are going to know about it. Attention deficit disorder in children has been known for forever; used to be called hyperactivity. There is misuse of the diagnosis. You'll have school teachers recommending to parents their child has ADHD, when they may just be not the social conformist the teacher wants them to be. But the same people in the past had children lobotomized for "homosexual tendencies". They don't do the lobotomies anymore, but in America millions of kids find themselves committed to "treatment" centres, by their parents....to smooth out the little bumps in their personhood...."conversion" therapy, the "curing" of homosexual tendencies, is not in fact illegal in America. And it's legal to inflict it on children with their parents' consent. The centres do not openly advertise this service, they're afraid of Big Gay coming after them. It's a "kick up the arse" therapy; involving psychological torture and brain washing.....Because you can't get away with bruising children's bodies anymore; just their minds.




  • Cannex was quoting somebody else...just didn't "quote" it




  • Heart is in the right place though :)

    Just for future reference though, gluten is a protein and a person who has celiac disease is missing the enzyme to break it down. It causes malnutrition and will have deadly effects later on in life on those who are celiac and continue to eat it anyway.

    Were you trying to be funny? Hmm

    Bi-polar disorder can only be diagnosed in teens, never in childhod and normally in early to late 20's.




  • cannex wrote: »

    Bi-polar disorder can only be diagnosed in teens, never in childhod and normally in early to late 20's.

    No, what there is a general convention not to give children or young teens a diagnostic label. Children naturally have difficulties controlling their emotions, but they can have genuine psychiatric conditions, and they receive treatment all the time.

    There is an issue with conditions becoming "fashionable". A parent or a school teacher, may read about ADHD in magazines and other media sources; all children are hyperactive and have trouble concentrating, but they don't all have ADHD. The parent may convince themselves and their doctor their child has ADHD.

    Something very similar happens to doctors. They read rubbish in magazines too, and they can get it confused with their medical training and experience. For example, when bi-polar was fashionable, in the 90s. It was so fashionable, Alanis Morrisette's multi-zillion selling album Jagged Little Pill..The jagged little pill referred to is a dose of prozac, where the pill has been split in two..hence, it's jagged on one side. Whinging navel gazing young women of today claim PTSD as their ailment of choice, in the 90s it was bipolar. Is there anything actually wrong with these girls....no....and yes....not being a very nice person, being tired, grumpy, and jealous, and being upset with your boyfriend and ex-best friend, for what they did behind your back....That's not a psychiatric condition.

    But I digress. To give an example of the influence of pop-culture fashionability of ailments on doctors. In the 90s, a 13 year-old girl presents to her GP, with wild mood swings and depression. His first line is to prescribe her antidepressants. This treatment is ineffective, but goes on for years, escalating and switching antidepressants. Completely wrong from the get-go. The girl's depression coincided with her beginning to have her periods. She wasn't in fact bipolar, she was just experiencing a more extreme hormonal dysregulation. This is quite common and usually the contraceptive pill fixes it.




  • Hi everyone. I'm a 22 year old and up until about 7/8 months ago I didn't even know what ADHD was, but ever since then I've been wandering whether I might have it! An ex-boyfriend of mine who had ADHD was pretty adamant that I had it too and considering his own diagnosis and the fact that we dated for 6/7 months, it got me wondering whether he might be right. (Also the fact that I seem to fit a Lot of the symptoms, relate to about 99% of the things that I've read/ watched online and my problems haven't gone away one bit since I started college and some other people who I'm close with seem to think that I might have it too). I casually asked my doctor about it one day while coming in for something else and she suggested DCU as a good place to be assessed, but then I looked at the pricing and there's just no way I can afford to pay 800- 1000 euros for a consultation! I also don't want to go through a whole rigorous testing process only to be potentially told at the end of it that I don't have it, after wasting all that time and money and mental energy. And I don't have a medical card and won't be able to get one for a little over 2 years, just to make matters worse. All I actually want at this point is to get an idea for whether I might have it or not, from a professional who has some basic training in recognising or diagnosing ADHD, even if it's not actually an official diagnosis, because I'm just so sick of wandering about it; the same question playing over and over in my mind in an obsessive loop; it's getting really old. Anyone have any ideas of places I could try for a diagnosis in Ireland that aren't as dare as 800 euros?




  • Lucky for you you are young enough to get your old school reports, get them from your primary and secondary school and then you can get assessed through the HSE, they will want to interview your parents or someone close to you (if you are still friends with your ex that would work)

    Your school reports will need to have mentioned trouble with paying attention or behavioral problems. In Ireland they do not believe you can have ADHD as an adult without someone having noticed it when you were a child

    https://www.hse.ie/eng/about/who/cspd/ncps/mental-health/adhd/


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