Wiseguys.

WilyCoyote

crockholm wrote: »

I hear they've got good pizza in Chicago,or if that's too far,try Philly:D
(no retorts using any jon stewart guff)

And no returns accepted!

FTA69

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Many Italians of that era will tell you though that they did more good than bad to their areas, for instance the mob used to the pay the rent of struggling Italian families in arrears.

They're a shower of f*cking parasites who sought to extort any semblance of local business initiative and who for years, preyed on their own people who were often vulnerable migrants. You see the same carry on in the Chinese community and Eastern Europeans etc etc. I hate this glorification of criminals lark.

Any gangster types I ever knew were vicious thugs who profited off the misery of others.

MonstaMash

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

'Ndrangheta in Sicily and the Camorra and Sacra Corana Unita of mainland Italy and have no such rules.

Ndrangheta are Calabrian region, not Sicily, Camorra are Campannia region, Stidda are southern Italy, Sacra Corana Unita are based in Apulia.

The Sicilian Mafia are the only criminal syndicate known as 'La Cosa Nostra' which means 'our concern'.

I am pie

MonstaMash wrote: »

The Sicilian Mafia are the only criminal syndicate known as 'La Cosa Nostra' which means 'our concern'.

It can be translated as "our thing" or more literally "the thing of ours", you'll hear in the sopranos various people saying "this thing of ours" ...it is a fairly informal expression which has taking on a more formal meaning. "cosa" is a very informal noun which is used for anything which doesn't really have a name in common conversation, in the same way we would use thing. Really the criminals would consider themselves (crime) family members rather than members of La Cosa Nostra.

old hippy

clairefontaine wrote: »

Italian Americans will not have much to do with those descended from Calabria and Sicily. They are often referred to as trash. You will hear this out of the mouths of Italian Americans who never stepped foot in Italy.

There is a degree of snobbery, that's true. I never heard it from my own family there but sometimes you just can't get away from the snooty sorts; no matter what country.

MonstaMash

I am pie wrote: »

It can be translated as "our thing" or more literally "the thing of ours", you'll hear in the sopranos various people saying "this thing of ours" ...it is a fairly informal expression which has taking on a more formal meaning. "cosa" is a very informal noun which is used for anything which doesn't really have a name in common conversation, in the same way we would use thing. Really the criminals would consider themselves (crime) family members rather than members of La Cosa Nostra.

Tell that to my uncles, one in Agrigento the other in Mazara Del Vallo, they will beg to differ

I am pie

MonstaMash wrote: »

Tell that to my uncles, one in Agrigento the other in Mazara Del Vallo, they will beg to differ

I will, get them to log in. No problem...

Irish Stones

I am pie wrote: »

It can be translated as "our thing" or more literally "the thing of ours", you'll hear in the sopranos various people saying "this thing of ours" ...

I'd say that "Cosa Nostra" (drop the "La") is better translated as "Business of ours". At least this is the meaning that comes to my mind every time (everyday) I hear of them.

clairefontaine

old hippy wrote: »

There is a degree of snobbery, that's true. I never heard it from my own family there but sometimes you just can't get away from the snooty sorts; no matter what country.

In fairness it's hard not to be snobby about all those virgin on the half shells peppering front lawns.

Also Jersey Shore? Oh dear god.

Mr.McLovin

beano345 wrote: »

Never seen it just heard a few people on about it, obviously it wasnt a box office hit

I don't think it got a release on this side of the Atlantic but you can watch it on various streaming sites. It wasn't very good, I had high hopes when I seen Christopher Walken cast in it.

Its worth watching just for Vinnie Jones's most atrocious Irish accent ever!

Mr.McLovin

BillyMitchel wrote: »

To kill an Irishman.

Big Irish hard man. Worked for the mafia, got high up, killed the mafia - on his own!
Killed by the mafia after taken out half of the mafia in that state. If the stories are true he is one crazy mofo!!

Film is no goodfellas but its watchable.

Yes the story was true, I read the book on which the film was based, there are some documentaries on youtube too which will follow his exploits which are pretty accurate and don't stray too far from the events in the film.

mariano rivera

Ginny Mother F*****

old hippy

MonstaMash wrote: »

Tell that to my uncles, one in Agrigento the other in Mazara Del Vallo, they will beg to differ

Agrigento is magnificent; such history.

The Corinthian

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Why is it that Italy have such a reverence for criminals. Is it like the way some people here still support dissident Republican groups? The Irish are often compared to the Italians by US history professors. The Mafia developed from the uneasy development of modern day Italy.

Not as simple as that. The Mafia pre-dated the unification of Italy in 1861, and was the product of weak government in the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies; when local is too weak, corrupt and ineffectual to protect you, such groups inevitably spring up to take up the slack. To this day, la Cosa Nostra, Camorra, 'Ndrangheta and so on are all southern Italian, from regions that were part of this kingdom.

If you live or grow up in the south, you'll see and know about them. You'll almost certainly have second hand dealings, if not direct one's. If you're from further north (Umbria and up) you'll probably never have any experience of them, unless you specifically go out to look for them (e.g. you're a factory owner who wants to get rid of industrial waste on the cheap).

As for why they're still around, you can probably blame lack of southern industrialization and World War II for that. Mussolini (more correctly Cesare Mori) had largely reduced the power of la Cosa Nostra, the process was put on hold and then reversed by the Americans, who actively worked with the Italian American Mafia as part of the allied invasion plans for Italy. The post war republic, failed to make any progress and it was only in the 1980's and 1990's that the problem could not be ignored any more; the Cosa Nostra is very much weakened today as a result.

Why do they retain 'support'? It's not really support, it's just that the Italian state has largely ignored the problem, which means they can still get away with whatever they want.

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

I've heard the Camorra are still the most prominent group in Italy.

No, the 'Ndrangheta is apparantly. Apparantly the Camorra's has taken a good few hits over the last few years - not only due to law enforcement, but also because their clan (basically a glorified gang) based structure tends to lend itself to a lot of splits and infighting. Good movie to watch on them is Gomorrah; the whole thing is in Neapolitan dialect, so even I need subtitles.

The 'Ndrangheta, on the other hand, was less powerful than la Cosa Nostra or Camorra, but as the power of the other two has decreased, they've filled the gap. They've been a very hard nut to crack, I've read, as membership (unlike the other groups) is based on blood ties, making infiltration or turning of existing members very difficult.

It must be hard for country like Italy to run sans corruption and crime, it seems to be ingrained in some of the southerners. It makes our problems here in Ireland seem very light

Northern Italy is much the same as Ireland. Actually, I've seen more envelopes pass hands in Ireland than I have in northern Italy.

Irish Stones wrote: »

I'd say that "Cosa Nostra" (drop the "La") is better translated as "Business of ours". At least this is the meaning that comes to my mind every time (everyday) I hear of them.

Actually, a cosa is a thing. So the phrase actually translates as 'the thing of ours' or 'our thing'.

old hippy wrote: »

Agrigento is magnificent; such history.

Yes, I agree. Great fish too.

Irish Stones

The Corinthian wrote: »

Good movie to watch on them is Gomorrah; the whole thing is in Neapolitan dialect, so even I need subtitles.

That movie is uncomprehensible to all northern Italians, unless those nothern Italians have southern origins
I live in the north, but my parents were from the south, so to me it's as easy as my official language
My wife couldn't understand it though, she's 100% northern

Actually, a cosa is a thing. So the phrase actually translates as 'the thing of ours' or 'our thing'.

Yes, "cosa" means "thing", but can also mean "business".
The sentence "it's not business of yours" can be translated with "non sono affari tuoi", ma anche con "non è una cosa che ti riguarda", where "cosa" e "affari" are completely interchangeable.
To my ears "Cosa Nostra" sounds like "business of ours" though it might mean "thing of ours".

pookiesboo

Ever since I can remember I've always wanted to be an Italian stereotype

The Corinthian

Irish Stones wrote: »

That movie is uncomprehensible to all northern Italians, unless those nothern Italians have southern origins

One of my ex's was from Caserta, and I used to hear her talking with her mother on the phone in Neapolitan every now and then with fascination and bewilderment; I'd kind of get the gist, recognise the odd word and spot words that seemed to have perhaps Greek origins, but ultimately it was all gibberish to me.

Yes, "cosa" means "thing", but can also mean "business".
The sentence "it's not business of yours" can be translated with "non sono affari tuoi", ma anche con "non è una cosa che ti riguarda", where "cosa" e "affari" are completely interchangeable.
To my ears "Cosa Nostra" sounds like "business of ours" though it might mean "thing of ours".

I'm sure it can also mean "business" in common parlance in Sicily, but I don't think the word officially is a synonym for it.

'Thing' is an often misused in a lot of languages and Italian is no exception. As a Tuscan I'm all too aware of this given the Tuscan habit to use it lazily in conversation, not only a noun, but even as a verb or adjective - "oggi devo cosare la cosa"

pookiesboo wrote: »

Ever since I can remember I've always wanted to be an Italian stereotype

Doesn't work as well in Ireland with the ladies as it used to before the Celtic Tiger and the influx of foreigners who are more exotic than Italians

Irish Stones

pookiesboo wrote: »

Ever since I can remember I've always wanted to be an Italian stereotype

As a child until I was 25 I wanted to be an American.
In the last 15 years I have always wished I was an Irish.
Everybody wants to be somebody else

Irish Stones

The Corinthian wrote: »

As a Tuscan I'm all too aware of this given the Tuscan habit to use it lazily in conversation, not only a noun, but even as a verb or adjective - "oggi devo cosare la cosa"

So, if you're Tuscan you also know that a male version of 'cosa' exists, 'il coso', when you don't to put the minimum effort in finding the right word for even the most common object you use everyday, like a toothbrush
But I'm completely OT now.

The Corinthian

Irish Stones wrote: »

So, if you're Tuscan you also know that a male version of 'cosa' exists, 'il coso', when you don't to put the minimum effort in finding the right word for even the most common object you use everyday, like a toothbrush

Indeed. It's a very versatile word, especially when abused this way. Last year I remember overhearing someone in Florence using 'cosa' about six times in the one sentence - now imagine that with a Florentine accent...

TheMilkyPirate

Can we get away from the Rosetta stone stuff and back to the guns and mobsters please

DEFTLEFTHAND

Who'd be the most famous Italian gangster? Capone is probably the most well known, founder of the "Chicago Outfit" famous for inventing the drive by shooting.

I'd go with Salvatore Luciana who had smarts about him, he took out the old Sicilian 'mustache petes' and formed a new version of the the American mob, he decided to divide the city and form five families among his allies, the system which still exists today.

Luciana changed his last name to Luciano because his father disowned him for being involved with the Mafia, he also anglicised Salvatore to Charles in later years. His nickname dates from way back in the 20s when the old school Cosa Nostra tried to killl him and he escaped. 'Lucky Luciano'.

In modern times his family out of the five is known as the Genovese. (Vito Genovese who took over after Lucky was released from prison and deported to Sicily in 1946.)

Sunnyisland

John gotti ?

DEFTLEFTHAND

realies wrote: »

John gotti ?

Gotti was the modern day Capone I suppose, the suits the overcoat, the wise guy jip out of him.

He also brought untold heat on the Gambinos though with his extravagance.
The FBI targeted him and the Gambinos ahead of the other four families. It was personal, Gotti was the 'Teflon Don' but they and the prosecutors were determined to make the charges stick. Even in the end it took a rat bastard in Sammy Gravano to put him away for life.

camel jockey

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Even in the end it took a rat bastard in Sammy Gravano to put him away for life.

/

Sulla Felix

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

The northern Italians of Milan and Turin view Sicily and the south as peasants, their brown eyes dark hair and swarthy complexions gave rise to the famous 'Guinea' insult which travelled across the Atlantic and was used by WASPS on the east coast of the States. (suggesting that they weren't full whites) even though they look like every other Mediterranean Caucasian people.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3yon2GyoiM

NuckingFacker

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

To this day Made men in the Mafia statestide are respected, they run their rackets(The numbers, protection, loan sharking etc) and hold their influence in the likes of Howard Beach and other areas in NYC. Unless you fcuk with them they won't interfere with you outside of the running of their rackets. The NY mob run a version of the La Cosa Nostra where a code of "honour" is adopted (You can't kill or attempt to take the life of any "un made citizen" police officer or Lawyer.) 'Ndrangheta in Sicily and the Camorra and Sacra Corana Unita of mainland Italy and have no such rules.

Why is it that Italy have such a reverence for criminals. Is it like the way some people here still support dissident Republican groups? The Irish are often compared to the Italians by US history professors. The Mafia developed from the uneasy development of modern day Italy.

You do know there's a thriving Murphyia in London and the Boss is treated like a lord? It's not one bit different to the Italian set-up except they dress a little bit worse and have crap tans. There's also a massive Cosa-Nosa presence in London, some in Dublin and a pretty big Lithuanian Mafia operating away here in good old Ireland. The Lithuanian version is waay scarier than the Italian version - they're a different breed altogether, very, very dangerous. The Italians tend to be pretty clear cut and businesslike, the Northern Europeans and Eastern Europeans just love fighting.

NuckingFacker

clairefontaine wrote: »

Italian Americans will not have much to do with those descended from Calabria and Sicily. They are often referred to as trash. You will hear this out of the mouths of Italian Americans who never stepped foot in Italy.

Managa. Which, if this was an Italian forum, would get me banned.

DEFTLEFTHAND

The eastern European crowd are a different breed, I was reading up on a lot of the ex soviet states recently and it seems that once the wall fell they came alive. Like Nuking mentioned the Baltic state groups who currently operate in Ireland or the Russian Mafia or 'Bratva' as they call themselves. Many crime experts speaking said that they're a different sort of threat, many of the Russian mobsters have post graduate qualifications in Commerce. They're educated, not your typical dumb street mobster

Here's a grainey version of a Russian Mob boss's wedding convoy, note how the police have shut down the highway.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bux36Ee4fAg

mad muffin

:eek: