Wiseguys.

DEFTLEFTHAND

To this day Made men in the Mafia statestide are respected, they run their rackets(The numbers, protection, loan sharking etc) and hold their influence in the likes of Howard Beach and other areas in NYC. Unless you fcuk with them they won't interfere with you outside of the running of their rackets. The NY mob run a version of the La Cosa Nostra where a code of "honour" is adopted (You can't kill or attempt to take the life of any "un made citizen" police officer or Lawyer.) 'Ndrangheta in Sicily and the Camorra and Sacra Corana Unita of mainland Italy and have no such rules.

Why is it that Italy have such a reverence for criminals. Is it like the way some people here still support dissident Republican groups? The Irish are often compared to the Italians by US history professors. The Mafia developed from the uneasy development of modern day Italy.

The Backwards Man

Any Italians I've met hate criminals just like everyone else.

Daqster

Puts horse's head under OP's duvet.

Bipolar Joe

As far as I know, the Mafia doesn't have nearly as much power as it did. Street gangs and stuff came along and took away most of their dealings, or at the very least made them much smaller. The thousands of small local gangs were enough to drive out most of the rackets, and these days it's drug importing and not much else.

AH answer: I blame Mussolini.

WilyCoyote

Try reading The Unification Of Italy. That will give a bit of gen

DEFTLEFTHAND

Bipolar Joe wrote: »

As far as I know, the Mafia doesn't have nearly as much power as it did. Street gangs and stuff came along and took away most of their dealings, or at the very least made them much smaller. The thousands of small local gangs were enough to drive out most of the rackets, and these days it's drug importing and not much else.

AH answer: I blame Mussolini.

The Five Mafia families of NYC still exist, Gambino, Lucchese, Columbo, Bonnano and Genovese.

The 'RICO Act' has put them under fierce pressure and reduced their influence, now any boss of a Mafia family can be sent down for the acts of their underlings. This is far removed from their golden age in the 30s 40s 50s where they even influenced Judicial elections in NY.

Many Italians of that era will tell you though that they did more good than bad to their areas, for instance the mob used to the pay the rent of struggling Italian families in arrears.

Sunglasses Ron

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

To this day Made men in the Mafia statestide are respected, they run their rackets(The numbers, protection, loan sharking etc) and hold their influence in the likes of Howard Beach and other areas in NYC. Unless you fcuk with them they won't interfere with you outside of the running of their rackets. The NY mob run a version of the La Cosa Nostra where a code of "honour" is adopted (You can't kill or attempt to take the life of any "un made citizen" police officer or Lawyer.) 'Ndrangheta in Sicily and the Camorra and Sacra Corana Unita of mainland Italy and have no such rules.

How many mob hits per year are still happening in NYC/ New Jersey? I remember a report on a hit in Philadelphia a while back that said there had not been one there for something like 12 years!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/06/nypd-report-details-crime_n_1862771.html

That would seem to suggest not a lot, but then again a fair amount of mob activity presumably happens out on Long Island these days.

Why is it that Italy have such a reverence for criminals. Is it like the way some people here still support dissident Republican groups? .

I don't think the North Italians are fond of them. Nor are the more educated upper class Italian Americans if the Sopranos is to be believed.

DEFTLEFTHAND

The northern Italians of Milan and Turin view Sicily and the south as peasants, their brown eyes dark hair and swarthy complexions gave rise to the famous 'Guinea' insult which travelled across the Atlantic and was used by WASPS on the east coast of the States. (suggesting that they weren't full whites) even though they look like every other Mediterranean Caucasian people.

clairefontaine

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

The northern Italians of Milan and Turin view Sicily and the south as peasants, their brown eyes dark hair and swarthy complexions gave rise to the famous 'Guinea' insult which travelled across the Atlantic and was used by WASPS on the east coast of the States. (suggesting that they weren't full whites) even though they look like every other Mediterranean Caucasian people.

Italian Americans will not have much to do with those descended from Calabria and Sicily. They are often referred to as trash. You will hear this out of the mouths of Italian Americans who never stepped foot in Italy.

MadsL

I was gonna read this thread in more detail, but....Fugget About It!

DEFTLEFTHAND

Sunglasses Ron wrote: »

How many mob hits per year are still happening in NYC/ New Jersey? I remember a report on a hit in Philadelphia a while back that said there had not been one there for something like 12 years!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/06/nypd-report-details-crime_n_1862771.html

That would seem to suggest not a lot, but then again a fair amount of mob activity presumably happens out on Long Island these days.



I don't think the North Italians are fond of them. Nor are the more educated upper class Italian Americans if the Sopranos is to be believed.

Two Gambino made men were jailed over extortion claims on the Freedom Tower site last year, two modern day Westies (Irish Mob) also were implicated. This revealed to FBI agents that the Westies/Gambino alliance still exists in NYC.

Type 'Mafia Today' into Google and you'll get a good site reporting on the current activities of the 5 families in NY.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Really good modern day interview for anyone with an interest in Wiseguys. John Angelo Gotti Jnr, ex boss of the Gambinos and son of the infamous John Gotti Sr.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTmX9omTTGY

Sunnyisland

I am reading a book about called Mafia republic by john dickie, Italy's criminal curse, Cosa Nostra, Camorra , Ndrangheta from 1946 to present, very interesting OP, think you would like it :-)

moy83

Italian's , balls like stallions

clairefontaine

This thread is making me want pizza.

Jake Rugby Walrus666

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

To this day Made men in the Mafia statestide are respected

When there's a mob tax on everything. When every business, and every part of the supply chain has the give the local oc their cut. This is ultimately passed on to the consumer. So everything in the united states is slightly dearer - might only be a couple of % - to finance this big parasite.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Jake Rugby Walrus666 wrote: »

When there's a mob tax on everything. When every business, and every part of the supply chain has the give the local oc their cut. This is ultimately passed on to the consumer. So everything in the united states is slightly dearer - might only be a couple of % - to finance this big parasite.

That's the nature of the beast, the mob will prey on any legitimate business they can get their claws into. For instance Gaetano Lucchese (lou kayze) who gave his name to the Lucchese crime family infiltrated the lucrative Jewish kosher chicken business. They got control of the union of kosher butchers and suppliers and took their cut. The money they took was passed on to the Jewish consumers.

It's sneaky how they operate, that's why it's hard to catch them, everything is kept low profile.

Irish Stones

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

'Ndrangheta in Sicily and the Camorra and Sacra Corana Unita of mainland Italy and have no such rules.

'Ndrangheta is not in Sicily, it's in Calabria.
Camorra is in Campania, Sacra Corona Unita is in Puglia and Cosa Nostra (or Mafia) is in Sicily.
'Ndrangheta is the most dangerous, because it's the criminal organization that succeded in "exporting" its business to all other regions of Italy and it's very much present in the North, especially in Lombardia, the region where Milan is, because in that region there are the biggest business.
But all cities and towns have some 'Ndrangheta men in useful positions.

What could we do about this and other organizations? Nothing!
They are everywhere, even in the very high places, and rumours are that there have been agreements between the State and those organizations in the past to keep a balance between the hunt for the bad men and the terror and killings they could do.
When in 1992 two huge explosions killed two magistrates who were investigating on Mafia and all, the State replied with severe punishment measures in jail to the culprits. In order to alleviate these unbearable prison measures and try to bend the State to their will, new bombs were put by the Mafia in touristic places and killed many innocent people.
It's a complicated story. Very prominent politicians were allegedly involved, but no clear evidence of this agreement ever came to light.
One of these politicians died some months ago, and nobody talked about him since. The name of the present President of the Republic has been involved as well and it seems there was a taped conversation of him with some Mafia man, but because nobody can investigate on the President, then those tapes were destroyed earlier this year.
How can we be saved from this situation? There's no other way than cut this country away along the Alps border, undermine our foundations and let us float away or sink in the Mediterranean Sea. The latter is preferable.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Irish Stones wrote: »

'Ndrangheta is not in Sicily, it's in Calabria.
Camorra is in Campania, Sacra Corona Unita is in Puglia and Cosa Nostra (or Mafia) is in Sicily.
'Ndrangheta is the most dangerous, because it's the criminal organization that succeded in "exporting" its business to all other regions of Italy and it's very much present in the North, especially in Lombardia, the region where Milan is, because in that region there are the biggest business.
But all cities and towns have some 'Ndrangheta men in useful positions.

What could we do about this and other organizations? Nothing!
They are everywhere, even in the very high places, and rumours are that there have been agreements between the State and those organizations in the past to keep a balance between the hunt for the bad men and the terror and killings they could do.
When in 1992 two huge explosions killed two magistrates who were investigating on Mafia and all, the State replied with severe punishment measures in jail to the culprits. In order to alleviate these unbearable prison measures and try to bend the State to their will, new bombs were put by the Mafia in touristic places and killed many innocent people.
It's a complicated story. Very prominent politicians were allegedly involved, but no clear evidence of this agreement ever came to light.
One of these politicians died some months ago, and nobody talked about him since. The name of the present President of the Republic has been involved as well and it seems there was a taped conversation of him with some Mafia man, but because nobody can investigate on the President, then those tapes were destroyed earlier this year.
How can we be saved from this situation? There's no other way than cut this country away along the Alps border, undermine our foundations and let us float away or sink in the Mediterranean Sea. The latter is preferable.

I've heard the Camorra are still the most prominent group in Italy. I remember years ago the Mafia blew up a section of motorway outside of Palermo killing Mafia prosecutor Giovanni Falcone his wife and bodyguards in their cavalcade in the process, I think thats the 92 incident you mentioned. This was ordered by Salvatore 'Toto' Riina and was seen as a message to anti organised crime law enforcement.

It must be hard for country like Italy to run sans corruption and crime, it seems to be ingrained in some of the southerners. It makes our problems here in Ireland seem very light.

MRnotlob606

you think im funny , funny how ?

mattjack

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

To this day Made men in the Mafia statestide are respected, they run their rackets(The numbers, protection, loan sharking etc) and hold their influence in the likes of Howard Beach and other areas in NYC. Unless you fcuk with them they won't interfere with you outside of the running of their rackets. The NY mob run a version of the La Cosa Nostra where a code of "honour" is adopted (You can't kill or attempt to take the life of any "un made citizen" police officer or Lawyer.) 'Ndrangheta in Sicily and the Camorra and Sacra Corana Unita of mainland Italy and have no such rules.

Why is it that Italy have such a reverence for criminals. Is it like the way some people here still support dissident Republican groups? The Irish are often compared to the Italians by US history professors. The Mafia developed from the uneasy development of modern day Italy.

"That you again Lefty , tell 'em what happened to your right hand."

DEFTLEFTHAND

mattjack wrote: »

"That you again Lefty , tell 'em what happened to your right hand."

Go get your shinebox matty!

elefant

Who says I got a mother?

Irish Stones

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

I've heard the Camorra are still the most prominent group in Italy.

Yes, it's very prominent, but its presence is felt especially in Campania (Naples and around). They are famous for the "waste business". Since disposing of waste is an expensive burden for everybody, and since big (northern) industries produce the largest amount of waste, sometimes toxic or special waste, these industries should pay a lot of money for the correct (and lawful) disposal of it. So that's where Camorra steps in. They can manage those waste in a "cheaper way"... They bury it in some plot of land that they own, they don't own or they lend from someone. This waste management is cheaper fro industries and source of huge gain for the criminals. They've been burying toxic and dangerous, sometimes nuclear, waste for decades and now all of this is coming out.
This has led to the almost irreversible pollution of huge areas where the cancer rate in the population, especially yaoung children, is the highest of Italy. Poluuted lands produce polluted food, cattle graze those lands, their meat and milk is polluted. The worst thing is that the food from that area is exported all over. Tomatoes and cabbeges are amongst the main product of that area, but the most affected product is the Buffalo Mozzarella (mozzarella made from water buffalo milk), whose sales have dropped dramatically.

I remember years ago the Mafia blew up a section of motorway outside of Palermo killing Mafia prosecutor Giovanni Falcone his wife and bodyguards in their cavalcade in the process, I think thats the 92 incident you mentioned. This was ordered by Salvatore 'Toto' Riina and was seen as a message to anti organised crime law enforcement.

Exactly, it was May 1992. Falcone was working with Borsellino, another prosecutor who was later killed in July 1992, only two months later, with a car loaded with explosive and parked in front of Borsellino's mother's house. It was a Sunday, he went to visit her mother with all his bodyguards. As soon he arrived the bomb went off and killed him and five of his six bodyguards. The building, a condo building, suffered severe damages.
I remember I was coming home after a bike tour on that afternoon and heard all the TV's around echoing the news of a bomb with several victims. That was the year of the war in Yugoslavia and I thought that something happened over there, but as soon as I went inside I realized that the truth was much different...

It must be hard for country like Italy to run sans corruption and crime, it seems to be ingrained in some of the southerners. It makes our problems here in Ireland seem very light.

I don't how important and hard your problems are, and I think that you have your hardships as well, but I may presume that we have a little worse life over here...
Organized crime, corruption, bribery, politicians that think for themselves, lazy attitude towards work, we moan and whine for our situation but we do nothing to improve our lives. We are useless

beano345

Wasnt their an irish mobster responsible for taking down the cleveland mob they made a film about it ,killing the irishman think its called

anncoates

It's easier to eulogize criminality when it's tastefully filmed with a decent soundtrack.

Dancor

beano345 wrote: »

Wasnt their an irish mobster responsible for taking down the cleveland mob they made a film about it ,killing the irishman think its called

Danny Green. ****e film.

BillyMitchel

beano345 wrote: »

Wasnt their an irish mobster responsible for taking down the cleveland mob they made a film about it ,killing the irishman think its called

To kill an Irishman.

Big Irish hard man. Worked for the mafia, got high up, killed the mafia - on his own!
Killed by the mafia after taken out half of the mafia in that state. If the stories are true he is one crazy mofo!!

Film is no goodfellas but its watchable.

beano345

Never seen it just heard a few people on about it, obviously it wasnt a box office hit

SEPT 23 1989

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6G6yVIHvsIE

crockholm

clairefontaine wrote: »

This thread is making me want pizza.

I hear they've got good pizza in Chicago,or if that's too far,try Philly:D
(no retorts using any jon stewart guff)

WilyCoyote

crockholm wrote: »

I hear they've got good pizza in Chicago,or if that's too far,try Philly:D
(no retorts using any jon stewart guff)

And no returns accepted!

FTA69

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Many Italians of that era will tell you though that they did more good than bad to their areas, for instance the mob used to the pay the rent of struggling Italian families in arrears.

They're a shower of f*cking parasites who sought to extort any semblance of local business initiative and who for years, preyed on their own people who were often vulnerable migrants. You see the same carry on in the Chinese community and Eastern Europeans etc etc. I hate this glorification of criminals lark.

Any gangster types I ever knew were vicious thugs who profited off the misery of others.

MonstaMash

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

'Ndrangheta in Sicily and the Camorra and Sacra Corana Unita of mainland Italy and have no such rules.

Ndrangheta are Calabrian region, not Sicily, Camorra are Campannia region, Stidda are southern Italy, Sacra Corana Unita are based in Apulia.

The Sicilian Mafia are the only criminal syndicate known as 'La Cosa Nostra' which means 'our concern'.

I am pie

MonstaMash wrote: »

The Sicilian Mafia are the only criminal syndicate known as 'La Cosa Nostra' which means 'our concern'.

It can be translated as "our thing" or more literally "the thing of ours", you'll hear in the sopranos various people saying "this thing of ours" ...it is a fairly informal expression which has taking on a more formal meaning. "cosa" is a very informal noun which is used for anything which doesn't really have a name in common conversation, in the same way we would use thing. Really the criminals would consider themselves (crime) family members rather than members of La Cosa Nostra.

old hippy

clairefontaine wrote: »

Italian Americans will not have much to do with those descended from Calabria and Sicily. They are often referred to as trash. You will hear this out of the mouths of Italian Americans who never stepped foot in Italy.

There is a degree of snobbery, that's true. I never heard it from my own family there but sometimes you just can't get away from the snooty sorts; no matter what country.

MonstaMash

I am pie wrote: »

It can be translated as "our thing" or more literally "the thing of ours", you'll hear in the sopranos various people saying "this thing of ours" ...it is a fairly informal expression which has taking on a more formal meaning. "cosa" is a very informal noun which is used for anything which doesn't really have a name in common conversation, in the same way we would use thing. Really the criminals would consider themselves (crime) family members rather than members of La Cosa Nostra.

Tell that to my uncles, one in Agrigento the other in Mazara Del Vallo, they will beg to differ

I am pie

MonstaMash wrote: »

Tell that to my uncles, one in Agrigento the other in Mazara Del Vallo, they will beg to differ

I will, get them to log in. No problem...

Irish Stones

I am pie wrote: »

It can be translated as "our thing" or more literally "the thing of ours", you'll hear in the sopranos various people saying "this thing of ours" ...

I'd say that "Cosa Nostra" (drop the "La") is better translated as "Business of ours". At least this is the meaning that comes to my mind every time (everyday) I hear of them.

clairefontaine

old hippy wrote: »

There is a degree of snobbery, that's true. I never heard it from my own family there but sometimes you just can't get away from the snooty sorts; no matter what country.

In fairness it's hard not to be snobby about all those virgin on the half shells peppering front lawns.

Also Jersey Shore? Oh dear god.

Mr.McLovin

beano345 wrote: »

Never seen it just heard a few people on about it, obviously it wasnt a box office hit

I don't think it got a release on this side of the Atlantic but you can watch it on various streaming sites. It wasn't very good, I had high hopes when I seen Christopher Walken cast in it.

Its worth watching just for Vinnie Jones's most atrocious Irish accent ever!

Mr.McLovin

BillyMitchel wrote: »

To kill an Irishman.

Big Irish hard man. Worked for the mafia, got high up, killed the mafia - on his own!
Killed by the mafia after taken out half of the mafia in that state. If the stories are true he is one crazy mofo!!

Film is no goodfellas but its watchable.

Yes the story was true, I read the book on which the film was based, there are some documentaries on youtube too which will follow his exploits which are pretty accurate and don't stray too far from the events in the film.

mariano rivera

Ginny Mother F*****

old hippy

MonstaMash wrote: »

Tell that to my uncles, one in Agrigento the other in Mazara Del Vallo, they will beg to differ

Agrigento is magnificent; such history.

The Corinthian

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Why is it that Italy have such a reverence for criminals. Is it like the way some people here still support dissident Republican groups? The Irish are often compared to the Italians by US history professors. The Mafia developed from the uneasy development of modern day Italy.

Not as simple as that. The Mafia pre-dated the unification of Italy in 1861, and was the product of weak government in the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies; when local is too weak, corrupt and ineffectual to protect you, such groups inevitably spring up to take up the slack. To this day, la Cosa Nostra, Camorra, 'Ndrangheta and so on are all southern Italian, from regions that were part of this kingdom.

If you live or grow up in the south, you'll see and know about them. You'll almost certainly have second hand dealings, if not direct one's. If you're from further north (Umbria and up) you'll probably never have any experience of them, unless you specifically go out to look for them (e.g. you're a factory owner who wants to get rid of industrial waste on the cheap).

As for why they're still around, you can probably blame lack of southern industrialization and World War II for that. Mussolini (more correctly Cesare Mori) had largely reduced the power of la Cosa Nostra, the process was put on hold and then reversed by the Americans, who actively worked with the Italian American Mafia as part of the allied invasion plans for Italy. The post war republic, failed to make any progress and it was only in the 1980's and 1990's that the problem could not be ignored any more; the Cosa Nostra is very much weakened today as a result.

Why do they retain 'support'? It's not really support, it's just that the Italian state has largely ignored the problem, which means they can still get away with whatever they want.

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

I've heard the Camorra are still the most prominent group in Italy.

No, the 'Ndrangheta is apparantly. Apparantly the Camorra's has taken a good few hits over the last few years - not only due to law enforcement, but also because their clan (basically a glorified gang) based structure tends to lend itself to a lot of splits and infighting. Good movie to watch on them is Gomorrah; the whole thing is in Neapolitan dialect, so even I need subtitles.

The 'Ndrangheta, on the other hand, was less powerful than la Cosa Nostra or Camorra, but as the power of the other two has decreased, they've filled the gap. They've been a very hard nut to crack, I've read, as membership (unlike the other groups) is based on blood ties, making infiltration or turning of existing members very difficult.

It must be hard for country like Italy to run sans corruption and crime, it seems to be ingrained in some of the southerners. It makes our problems here in Ireland seem very light

Northern Italy is much the same as Ireland. Actually, I've seen more envelopes pass hands in Ireland than I have in northern Italy.

Irish Stones wrote: »

I'd say that "Cosa Nostra" (drop the "La") is better translated as "Business of ours". At least this is the meaning that comes to my mind every time (everyday) I hear of them.

Actually, a cosa is a thing. So the phrase actually translates as 'the thing of ours' or 'our thing'.

old hippy wrote: »

Agrigento is magnificent; such history.

Yes, I agree. Great fish too.

Irish Stones

The Corinthian wrote: »

Good movie to watch on them is Gomorrah; the whole thing is in Neapolitan dialect, so even I need subtitles.

That movie is uncomprehensible to all northern Italians, unless those nothern Italians have southern origins
I live in the north, but my parents were from the south, so to me it's as easy as my official language
My wife couldn't understand it though, she's 100% northern

Actually, a cosa is a thing. So the phrase actually translates as 'the thing of ours' or 'our thing'.

Yes, "cosa" means "thing", but can also mean "business".
The sentence "it's not business of yours" can be translated with "non sono affari tuoi", ma anche con "non è una cosa che ti riguarda", where "cosa" e "affari" are completely interchangeable.
To my ears "Cosa Nostra" sounds like "business of ours" though it might mean "thing of ours".

pookiesboo

Ever since I can remember I've always wanted to be an Italian stereotype

The Corinthian

Irish Stones wrote: »

That movie is uncomprehensible to all northern Italians, unless those nothern Italians have southern origins

One of my ex's was from Caserta, and I used to hear her talking with her mother on the phone in Neapolitan every now and then with fascination and bewilderment; I'd kind of get the gist, recognise the odd word and spot words that seemed to have perhaps Greek origins, but ultimately it was all gibberish to me.

Yes, "cosa" means "thing", but can also mean "business".
The sentence "it's not business of yours" can be translated with "non sono affari tuoi", ma anche con "non è una cosa che ti riguarda", where "cosa" e "affari" are completely interchangeable.
To my ears "Cosa Nostra" sounds like "business of ours" though it might mean "thing of ours".

I'm sure it can also mean "business" in common parlance in Sicily, but I don't think the word officially is a synonym for it.

'Thing' is an often misused in a lot of languages and Italian is no exception. As a Tuscan I'm all too aware of this given the Tuscan habit to use it lazily in conversation, not only a noun, but even as a verb or adjective - "oggi devo cosare la cosa"

pookiesboo wrote: »

Ever since I can remember I've always wanted to be an Italian stereotype

Doesn't work as well in Ireland with the ladies as it used to before the Celtic Tiger and the influx of foreigners who are more exotic than Italians

Irish Stones

pookiesboo wrote: »

Ever since I can remember I've always wanted to be an Italian stereotype

As a child until I was 25 I wanted to be an American.
In the last 15 years I have always wished I was an Irish.
Everybody wants to be somebody else

Irish Stones

The Corinthian wrote: »

As a Tuscan I'm all too aware of this given the Tuscan habit to use it lazily in conversation, not only a noun, but even as a verb or adjective - "oggi devo cosare la cosa"

So, if you're Tuscan you also know that a male version of 'cosa' exists, 'il coso', when you don't to put the minimum effort in finding the right word for even the most common object you use everyday, like a toothbrush
But I'm completely OT now.

The Corinthian

Irish Stones wrote: »

So, if you're Tuscan you also know that a male version of 'cosa' exists, 'il coso', when you don't to put the minimum effort in finding the right word for even the most common object you use everyday, like a toothbrush

Indeed. It's a very versatile word, especially when abused this way. Last year I remember overhearing someone in Florence using 'cosa' about six times in the one sentence - now imagine that with a Florentine accent...