World Class Maternity services, YEAH RIGHT!

Morag

Dhara Kivlehan, Savita Halappanavar & Bimbo Onanuga when will we start talking about migrant women dying in our hospitals due to medical staff ignoring and neglecting them?

http://www.thejournal.ie/dhara-kivlehan-hse-pregnancy-1204009-Dec2013/

Seriously WTF, I know our hospitals esp maternity ones have not enough staff and they are run off their feet, but in this day and age no one should die cos
no one checked the test results or checked the charts.

Over flow happens and often means patients are less checked on, but it should not be a bloody death sentence.

Femme_Fatale

I see from that rag article/comments this tragedy being used as a political football, a stick to beat the public sector with, the usual.

Classy. But not surprising.

Fr_Dougal

Morag wrote: »

Dhara Kivlehan, Savita Halappanavar & Bimbo Onanuga when will we start talking about migrant women dying in our hospitals due to medical staff ignoring and neglecting them?

http://www.thejournal.ie/dhara-kivlehan-hse-pregnancy-1204009-Dec2013/

Seriously WTF, I know our hospitals esp maternity ones have not enough staff and they are run off their feet, but in this day and age no one should die cos
no one checked the test results or checked the charts.

Over flow happens and often means patients are less checked on, but it should not be a bloody death sentence.

3 out of how many hundred thousand? TheJournal.ie is a rag, on the same level as the Daily Mail.

Our maternity hospitals may be under pressure, but they still provide excellent care and it IS world class.

For Forks Sake

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

3 out of how many hundred thousand? TheJournal.ie is a rag, on the same level as the Daily Mail.
.

Lower even. Takes some doing, but the cretinous nonsense passed off as content there is beyond a joke.

As for those who spend their days commenting ill-informed bullsh1t on there all day, the less said the better.

Karl Stein

Isn't Ireland one of the best places in the world to have a baby as regards medical outcomes?

Morag

Here's a different link so

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/hse-to-pay-800-000-to-family-of-woman-who-died-after-birth-1.1615552

"
HSE to pay €800,000 to family of woman who died after birth
Ms Justice Mary Irvine hits out at HSE again for delay in admitting fault
"

World class my arse.

Femme_Fatale

For Forks Sake wrote: »

Lower even. Takes some doing, but the cretinous nonsense passed off as content there is beyond a joke.

As for those who spend their days commenting ill-informed bullsh1t on there all day, the less said the better.

Lunatics running asylum. Seriously, some of them seem to have hopped off the sanity boat long ago...

Morag

Carlos Roca wrote: »

Isn't Ireland one of the best places in the world to have a baby as regards medical outcomes?

If your medical outcomes only have two critea a live woman and a live child and you don't record properly the number of maternal deaths, then yes.


http://www.irishhealth.com/article.html?id=22882

Eight maternal deaths took place at maternity units around the country last year, seven more than the figure recorded by the Central Statistics Office (CSO), it has emerged.

hansfrei

Agenda lead thread has agenda.

MadsL

The Medical industry kills thousand if not millions each year. They kill people through malpractice, wrong meds, wrong treatment, wrong data, lack of basic hygiene and failure to invest in quality control.

On top of that 106,000 people a year die from improperly tested medicines.

Yet Healthcare and Pharmaceutical costs keep rising.

No-one in Healthcare wants to talk about how many people they killed that day. Welcome to Healthcare's dirty little secret.

suicide_circus

Burn down the maternity wards!!

dxhound2005

MadsL wrote: »

The Medical industry kills thousand if not millions each year. They kill people through malpractice, wrong meds, wrong treatment, wrong data, lack of basic hygiene and failure to invest in quality control.

On top of that 106,000 people a year die from improperly tested medicines.

Yet Healthcare and Pharmaceutical costs keep rising.

No-one in Healthcare wants to talk about how many people they killed that day. Welcome to Healthcare's dirty little secret.

Be a bit more specific.

Morag

Morag wrote: »

Here's a different link so

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/hse-to-pay-800-000-to-family-of-woman-who-died-after-birth-1.1615552

"
HSE to pay €800,000 to family of woman who died after birth
Ms Justice Mary Irvine hits out at HSE again for delay in admitting fault
"

World class my arse.

.

Officer Eddie: (reading Steve Sax's license) Well well, Steve Sax, from New York City.
Officer Lou: I heard some guy got killed in New York City and they never solved the case. But you wouldn't know anything about that now, would you, Steve?(Lou and Eddie laugh)
Steve Sax: But there are hundreds of unsolved murders in New York City.
Officer Lou: You don't know when to keep your mouth shut, do you, Saxxy Boy?

dan1895

Morag wrote: »

If your medical outcomes only have two critea a live woman and a live child and you don't record properly the number of maternal deaths, then yes.


http://www.irishhealth.com/article.html?id=22882

Can you provide us with the stats of what you would consider a world class country in this area?

As said above, I thought Ireland was one of the best places for having a baby in.

dxhound2005

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Be a bit more specific.

It's hundreds of thousands for sure, hard to know if it's in the millions because of how much of the world doesn't access proper medical services regularly.

Femme_Fatale

MadsL wrote: »

The Medical industry kills thousand if not millions each year. They kill people through malpractice, wrong meds, wrong treatment, wrong data, lack of basic hygiene and failure to invest in quality control.

On top of that 106,000 people a year die from improperly tested medicines.

Yet Healthcare and Pharmaceutical costs keep rising.

No-one in Healthcare wants to talk about how many people they killed that day. Welcome to Healthcare's dirty little secret.

Yeh I'm gonna need a bit more evidence than that. "Welcome to healthcare's dirty little secret" might sound intriguing, but it's not actually proving anything.

Plus, it's not a secret if you've just talked about it.

MadsL

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Be a bit more specific.

If they published accurate statistics we would know. The ICD-10 project globally should unify statistics and help compare rates, but best guess, preventable medical error kills 98,000 Americans a year.
http://www.justice.org/cps/rde/justice/hs.xsl/8677.htm

dxhound2005

Deleted User wrote: »

It's hundreds of thousands for sure, hard to know if it's in the millions because of how much of the world doesn't access proper medical services regularly.

It sounds like they are better off staying away from the "proper" medical services.

The_Morrigan

The problem with stories like this is that you only hear about the bad ones. You won't have any newspaper with a headline of maternity ward successfully delivers 20 babies today, they will only report on the tragic events of a death.
Same with every industry it is only the scandal that is reported not the day to day business.

MadsL

Proper investment in state of the art medical technology could save 100,000 lives a year.

They said patients treated in hospitals that ranked highest in use of health information technology to manage patient records and physician notes were 15 percent less likely to die compared with patients in hospitals that ranked lower.

"If these results were to hold for all hospitals in the United States, computerizing notes and records might have the potential to save 100,000 lives annually,"

Imagine being 15% more likely to die because your hospital uses paper records. :eek:

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

'preventable' is an unbelievably loaded term...

MadsL

The_Morrigan wrote: »

The problem with stories like this is that you only hear about the bad ones. You won't have any newspaper with a headline of maternity ward successfully delivers 20 babies today, they will only report on the tragic events of a death.
Same with every industry it is only the scandal that is reported not the day to day business.

I promise you there are a plenty of unreported negligent deaths, and the older you are the less likely it will be reported.

Hospitals kill people that they could have easily not killed every single day.

dxhound2005

dxhound2005 wrote: »

It sounds like they are better off staying away from the "proper" medical services.

Well it's swings and roundabouts for a lot of it. Most people need antibiotics a few times between the ages of 20 and 50, then move onto statins and the like. Another 20 years later and suddenly the time in hospital increases and the chance for some numbnuts to kill them increases massively.
Personally when I have a choice I'll always avoid hospital. If I have to go I'll get a taxi rather than an ambulance, faster, cheaper and at least someone will pay attention.

Morag

dan1895 wrote: »

Can you provide us with the stats of what you would consider a world class country in this area?

As said above, I thought Ireland was one of the best places for having a baby in.

Really? tell that one to the survivors of symphysiotomy or of Dr Neary.

A country which has revised it's policies in the last 50 years to start with.



http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/geographic-lottery-to-access-maternity-care-245939.html

Pregnant women are being subjected to a “geographic lottery” as a direct result of “outdated, patently unsafe” standards in Ireland’s maternity service.

“What is also of grave concern is the number of failures at national level identified in the report, including timely access to maternity services, inadequate staffing levels for safe care, a maternity care model that hasn’t been revised in 59 years and a lack of accountability and governance.

“The 2007 ‘safer childbirth’ document recommends midwife-to-woman staffing levels are never to exceed 1:28 for low risk women and 1:25 for high- risk women, in order to ensure women are safely looked after and not left alone in labour.

“Irish ratios drastically exceed these recommendations and were seen to be contributing factors into the deaths of Tania McCabe, Bimbo Onanuga, and now Savita Halappanavar.

MadsL

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

'preventable' is an unbelievably loaded term...

A friend of mine had treatment for hairy cell leukaemia at Tallagh Hosp. - during his first round of treatment he was given a drug that caused all his skin to de-laminate. He suffered terribly but was eventually give the all-clear to go home. A year and half later his remission reversed and he had to go back in.

They gave him the same drug again. His skin fell off, again.

Tell me that wasn't preventable either through pharmacy IT programs or reading his medical notes beyond a cursory glance. Had his adverse reaction been different to the drug he could have died.

Cause of death? Chalk one up for hairy cell leukaemia, none for medical incompetence.

Loaded? Not a bit of it, medical incompetence is unbelievably tolerated.

Morag

Morag wrote: »

Really? tell that one to the survivors of symphysiotomy or of Dr Neary.]

Don't let elderly relatives go to England, Shipman might get them.

dxhound2005

Deleted User wrote: »

Well it's swings and roundabouts for a lot of it. Most people need antibiotics a few times between the ages of 20 and 50, then move onto statins and the like. Another 20 years later and suddenly the time in hospital increases and the chance for some numbnuts to kill them increases massively.
Personally when I have a choice I'll always avoid hospital. If I have to go I'll get a taxi rather than an ambulance, faster, cheaper and at least someone will pay attention.

The good news is that people here are living 10 years longer on average than in 1960. Despite the death wish behaviour of many with their diet, lifestyle and alcohol and tobacco consumption.

Last week on Liveline there were complaints that pregnant women and hospital staff looking after them were being forced to go outside the hospital grounds to have a smoke.

The_Morrigan

MadsL wrote: »

I promise you there are a plenty of unreported negligent deaths, and the older you are the less likely it will be reported.

Hospitals kill people that they could have easily not killed every single day.

I think that comes under the age old "complications due to age or underlying conditions".

I'm not disagreeing with you about the reporting I think it's skewed. The newspapers report on topical emotional and often politically driven issues that will get a reaction and cause a debate. They rarely mention the good deeds carried out daily to try balance it out though.

Morag

http://www.mdeireland.com/pub/MDE_report_w_2012.pdf

The Confidential Maternal Death Inquiry noted this - they found that between 2009 and 2011, roughly 25% of maternities in Ireland were women of non-Irish nationality, but 40% of all maternal deaths during that period occurred in women who were not born in Ireland.

dxhound2005

From the 2011 Census. The number living here born abroad 17% of the overall population. The number of non Irish Nationals living here 12% of the overall population. Was that disctinction taken into account?

Morag

Morag wrote: »

http://www.mdeireland.com/pub/MDE_report_w_2012.pdf

Got stats on public/private?

NIMAN

Can I ask the OP have you had experience of Ireland's maternity services?

We have had 3 children in the last 4 years and received nothing but excellent, top quality care from everyone involved.

From my experience, I would rate our services as excellent, under very difficult conditions.

Of course these mentioned cases are sad, but these happen in every country.

MadsL

MadsL wrote: »

Imagine being 15% more likely to die because your hospital uses paper records. :eek:

I'm quoting myself because I want this statistic to sink in.

Imagine if your local garage failed to connect your brakes on average 15% more because they had no checklist. As a result of that they killed 15% more people than the state of art garage down the road that have a big sign that says "reconnect and test brakes before letting customers leave".

That would never, ever be tolerated in mechanics, yet the very same scenario, misprescription, misdiagnosis and malpractice happens EVERY day in healthcare.

I will campaign for an a Nobel Peace prize for the first doctor or surgeon who confronts the problem in the public eye.

MadsL

NIMAN wrote: »

Of course these mentioned cases are sad, but these happen in every country.

Every country also used to have TB and Cholera. We figured out how to fix that.

Hootanany

Morag wrote: »

Dhara Kivlehan, Savita Halappanavar & Bimbo Onanuga when will we start talking about migrant women dying in our hospitals due to medical staff ignoring and neglecting them?

http://www.thejournal.ie/dhara-kivlehan-hse-pregnancy-1204009-Dec2013/

Seriously WTF, I know our hospitals esp maternity ones have not enough staff and they are run off their feet, but in this day and age no one should die cos
no one checked the test results or checked the charts.

Over flow happens and often means patients are less checked on, but it should not be a bloody death sentence.

Looks like racism to me

Sauve

MadsL wrote: »

The Medical industry kills thousand if not millions each year.

How do you expect any of your post to be taken seriously when you post something so wildly inaccurate?!
Bit of a difference between a thousand and a million in fairness.

MadsL

Sauve wrote: »

How do you expect any of your post to be taken seriously when you post something so wildly inaccurate?!
Bit of a difference between a thousand and a million in fairness.

I think it is clearly a typo for thousands if not millions.

If 98,000 Americans are killed through malpractice and 106,000 Americans are killed through pharma f8ckups, what do you suppose the global figure is, and why would it be unreasonable to see globally a million a year at least dead?

We don't know the real figure because the medical profession hides it. But preventable medical deaths are the sixth largest killer in the US.

Now. Am I wrong?

Sauve

MadsL wrote: »

I think it is clearly a typo for thousands if not millions.

If 98,000 Americans are killed through malpractice and 106,000 Americans are killed through pharma f8ckups, what do you suppose the global figure is, and why would it be unreasonable to see globally a million a year at least dead?

We don't know the real figure because the medical profession hides it. But preventable medical deaths are the sixth largest killer in the US.

Now. Am I wrong?

I have no idea if you're right or wrong because as you said yourself, "we don't know the real figure".

dxhound2005

MadsL wrote: »

I think it is clearly a typo for thousands if not millions.

If 98,000 Americans are killed through malpractice and 106,000 Americans are killed through pharma f8ckups, what do you suppose the global figure is, and why would it be unreasonable to see globally a million a year at least dead?

We don't know the real figure because the medical profession hides it. But preventable medical deaths are the sixth largest killer in the US.

Now. Am I wrong?

These people should definitely stay away from doctors and hospitals.

Taco Chips

MadsL wrote: »

A friend of mine had treatment for hairy cell leukaemia at Tallagh Hosp. - during his first round of treatment he was given a drug that caused all his skin to de-laminate. He suffered terribly but was eventually give the all-clear to go home. A year and half later his remission reversed and he had to go back in.

They gave him the same drug again. His skin fell off, again.

Tell me that wasn't preventable either through pharmacy IT programs or reading his medical notes beyond a cursory glance. Had his adverse reaction been different to the drug he could have died.

Cause of death? Chalk one up for hairy cell leukaemia, none for medical incompetence.

Loaded? Not a bit of it, medical incompetence is unbelievably tolerated.

Obviously you don't have much background knowledge of pharmacology and disease but rather a side effect like the one you described than death from the leukaemia? Thats one of the pillars of medicine, weight of the adverse effects of a drug versus the positive.

Jimoslimos

MadsL wrote: »

Proper investment in state of the art medical technology could save 100,000 lives a year.



Imagine being 15% more likely to die because your hospital uses paper records. :eek:

Relative risk percentages are meaningless without the absolute numbers to back them up

XxMCRxBabyxX

Morag wrote: »

http://www.mdeireland.com/pub/MDE_report_w_2012.pdf

So you're only bothered with the women who aren't Irish then? Are you trying to claim that the hospitals are biased or racist or why focus on them?

I'd imagine that the background of some of those women may have played a part. Culture, many have different and traditional birthing methods, they could have possibly Ben previously ill when they came over. Not that it's Irish are just trying to kill those foreign women.

gctest50

MadsL wrote: »

........
Now. Am I wrong?

nope .... here's another one (

http://98000reasons.org/

Jimoslimos

gctest50 wrote: »

nope .... here's another one (

http://98000reasons.org/

Hmm...a website by the American Association for Justice, alternatively known as the Association of Trial Lawyers of America. No conflict of interest here.

cuckoo

I think we do have good maternity services, but not as good as people like to say. As mentioned upthread, different countries had been using different criteria to record maternal mortality - some countries include deaths due to traffic accident of pregnant women in those stats.

Describing it as 'world class' and 'one of the best places in the world to give birth' is papering over the lack of investment in infrastructure - for example, women and babies are getting great care in Holles Street, but they and staff are in a building that reminds me of Hogwarts; cramped, not enough lifts, ancient toilet and shower facilities, etc.

I really don't think racism is a factor for higher maternal morbidity for non-Irish nationality women - our hospitals have more multinational staff then anywhere else I can think of in Ireland (bar facebook or multilingual tech support centres maybe). Complicated contributing factors in this situation - socioeconomic status, access to antenatal care, religion (e.g. Jehovah's witness), underlying disease, etc.

gctest50

Jimoslimos wrote: »

Hmm...a website by the American Association for Justice, alternatively known as the Association of Trial Lawyers of America. No conflict of interest here.

i know

Five years ago, the Institute of Medicine (IOM) galvanized the U.S. public and medical community with To Err is Human, its report on medical errors. The report's now-famous finding, that 44,000 to 98,000 Americans die each year as a result of medical mistakes,

http://www.commonwealthfund.org/Publications/In-the-Literature/2004/Nov/The-End-of-the-Beginning--Patient-Safety-Five-Years-After--To-Err-Is-Human--em.aspx

gctest50

Ireland :

MORE than €60 million will be paid out to patients who have suffered from serious medical errors in the health service this year

“A study in US hospitals has reported that only 2% of negligent adverse events lead to clinical malpractice claims, and the same is true here,” said the senior SCA official

Among the most troubling mistakes recorded last year were patients receiving the wrong medication (6,785 cases), incorrect diagnoses (2,051), blood transfusions incidents (824), and mistakes in medical records (5,070)

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/health/60m-to-be-paid-out-for-medical-errors-102582.html

.

Daqster

between 2009 and 2011, roughly 25% of maternities in Ireland were women of non-Irish nationality

Sweet marie. Is that true?

What % of women in Ireland are in fact non-nationals, out of interest, cause that sounds mighty bloody high.

kc90

MadsL wrote: »

I promise you there are a plenty of unreported negligent deaths, and the older you are the less likely it will be reported.

Hospitals kill people that they could have easily not killed every single day.

Would these people have died anyway, without intervention?

MadsL

Taco Chips wrote: »

Obviously you don't have much background knowledge of pharmacology and disease but rather a side effect like the one you described than death from the leukaemia? Thats one of the pillars of medicine, weight of the adverse effects of a drug versus the positive.

Are you honestly suggesting that that drug was the only option for treatment despite the known adverse side effect reaction in this particular patient? As I recall staff admitted they fcuked up.

Daqster

Daqster wrote: »

Sweet marie. Is that true?

What % of women in Ireland are in fact non-nationals, out of interest, cause that sounds mighty bloody high.

Around 16% of the population was foreign-born. Factor in how few of them are over 45 and therefore how many are of child-bearing age and the stats aren't too shocking.